I cannot wait for the draft, I am hopeful we can acquire more 2nd round picks as I think this draft is fairly deep going into the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Trading down makes sense, we're going to lose Schultz, we lost Gardiner, we need to rebuild the defense in the pipeline, outside of Vatanen, Welinski is the only one I think has high upside, the rest seem to be more 4-7th type guys.
I have a feeling we could be in a situation where Grigorenko is available:
EDM: Yakupov (obvious choice)
CBJ: Forsberg (he is BPA who is not Russian, and CBJ already said they loved him)
MTL: Galchenyuk (Habs are looking for a center and he is arguably the best one in this year's draft.)
NYI: Murray/Dumba (I think they go with a Defenseman this year. Murray would be a save choice, but maybe they look at a more "exciting" player in Dumba)
TOR: I'm pretty sure Burke doesn't want to draft a Russian. I also think Burke is not sold on Teravainen, due to his lack if size. Toronto will select Trouba IMO. Great upside, plays a physical game and goes to an USA college...has Burke all over it IMO. Pick could also be in play for a trade...Burke doesn't seem sold on this year's draft class.
Leaves us with the choice between Grigorenko, Reinhart, Murray/Dumba, Rielly or Teravainen.
I just can't see the Ducks taking a leap of faith with Grigorenko. Just isn't our style to draft a Russian whose work ethic has been in question and who has suffered under an injury all year long. I'd dismiss Teravainen as well, as we have enough wingers ATM.
Leaves one of the 4 defensmen: Murray/Dumba, Rielly or Reinhart.
Outside chance of Cody Ceci IMO as well.
If Grigorenko is available I think that we think long and hard before we pass on him. Russian factor or no, he is a tremendous talent and a potential first line center. Those types of players are few and far between.
If we either don't have one of the top two centers available or don't want Grigorenko then we have a choice of some good defensemen. I think that Murray will be gone, leaving us with my three top alternative choices of Dumba, Trouba or Reinhart.
I don't see how Russian factor affects Grigorenko much. He came over, that's gotta mean something. I guess it didn't help Radulov, but I still don't see it as much of a risk. He says over and over that KHL isn't in his plans.
Consistency and effort issues, sure. Even if I think they're overblown, I could see how someone would be wary with those flags. But I just don't seen KHL flight risk as factoring in the equation.
Not to mention that having a potential #1 C would be insurance if Getzlaf doesnt re-sign and just added depth if Getzlaf does re-sign. I think we'd be stupid to pass on him if he was available. Either russian C for that matter.
That sounds more like the "stereotyping factor" to me.
A little bit, I have to admit.
But, it is for real. Look at top line winger Filatov, who supposed to be 40 goal scorer. Ok, all nationalities have busts, no doubt. But why Nashville suspensioned their own players in PLAYOFFS? Those 2 were russians. What happened to Semin?
Being in contact with russians give me a little doubt.
Ofcourse, not all of them ar like that, but a big part is. Those who are real great are really great. Imo that`ll be Galchenyuk in this draft.
Not so sure for Grigorenko.
Galyenchuk - The kids going to be a stud, was seen as possible #1 draft choice before injury, impressed at combine.
Grigorenko - Lots of negatives, but even more positives. Potential #1 Center, world class talent.
Murray - Seen as the best d-man in the draft. Steady and consistent.
Forsberg - I used to see him as a bust, but continue to like him more and more. Has the tools to play for a top line in the NHL once developed.
Trouba - My personal choice. The kid plays with grit and I believe to be the best d-man in his own zone. Fits a need in the Ducks organization.
Reinhart - Not sure what to think of him. Definitely has the skillset to make it, but leaves you wishing for more physicality, definite potential to be a #1 D-man but must work and adapt to it.
Dumba - Looks to be a star, will be an exciting player but I don't see where he fits on the Ducks blueline in years to come.
Galyenchuk - The kids going to be a stud, was seen as possible #1 draft choice before injury, impressed at combine.
Grigorenko - Lots of negatives, but even more positives. Potential #1 Center, world class talent.
Murray - Seen as the best d-man in the draft. Steady and consistent.
Forsberg - I used to see him as a bust, but continue to like him more and more. Has the tools to play for a top line in the NHL once developed.
Trouba - My personal choice. The kid plays with grit and I believe to be the best d-man in his own zone. Fits a need in the Ducks organization.
Reinhart - Not sure what to think of him. Definitely has the skillset to make it, but leaves you wishing for more physicality, definite potential to be a #1 D-man but must work and adapt to it.
Dumba - Looks to be a star, will be an exciting player but I don't see where he fits on the Ducks blueline in years to come.
Perfect except I'd change Reinhart and Dumba. I think he and Trouba are neck in neck.
About effort, attitude, etc.
Galchenyuk looks great imo. Not sure about Grigorenko.
This is so untrue. All the Russian superstars (with the exception of Ovechkin) are workhorses and true hockey players. Ovechkin loves this game maybe more then anyone. I just think he has motivation problems but they are compounded so much since he is Russian. These kids idolize those players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDuck
My "Big Board" for the Ducks:
Yakupov - Obvious
Galyenchuk - The kids going to be a stud, was seen as possible #1 draft choice before injury, impressed at combine.
Grigorenko - Lots of negatives, but even more positives. Potential #1 Center, world class talent.
Murray - Seen as the best d-man in the draft. Steady and consistent.
Forsberg - I used to see him as a bust, but continue to like him more and more. Has the tools to play for a top line in the NHL once developed.
Trouba - My personal choice. The kid plays with grit and I believe to be the best d-man in his own zone. Fits a need in the Ducks organization.
Reinhart - Not sure what to think of him. Definitely has the skillset to make it, but leaves you wishing for more physicality, definite potential to be a #1 D-man but must work and adapt to it.
Dumba - Looks to be a star, will be an exciting player but I don't see where he fits on the Ducks blueline in years to come.
Put Dumba inbetween Trouba and Forsberg and thats what I hope it is.
I really think you guys are falling for Reinhart's size. He doesnt use it. He will piss you off so much because he doesnt use it.
This is so untrue. All the Russian superstars (with the exception of Ovechkin) are workhorses and true hockey players. Ovechkin loves this game maybe more then anyone. I just think he has motivation problems but they are compounded so much since he is Russian. These kids idolize those players.
Put Dumba inbetween Trouba and Forsberg and thats what I hope it is.
I really think you guys are falling for Reinhart's size. He doesnt use it. He will piss you off so much because he doesnt use it.
Yep. Totally agree. He's good but he's like 8th-12th overall good. I like to liken him to Oleksiak but Reinhart has more talent. His biggest selling point is his size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen
I cannot wait for the draft, I am hopeful we can acquire more 2nd round picks as I think this draft is fairly deep going into the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Trading down makes sense, we're going to lose Schultz, we lost Gardiner, we need to rebuild the defense in the pipeline, outside of Vatanen, Welinski is the only one I think has high upside, the rest seem to be more 4-7th type guys.
but it seems there is a high probability we make some trades
None of those guys will be there at 36 with the exception of Schmaltz.
I'd like Ebert in the third, just not the first two. But in the third I hope we look at Zach Stepan.
That sounds more like the "stereotyping factor" to me.
Not really. For every Datsyuk and Malkin there are 10 guys with attitude problems and/or work ethic issues. Kovalev, Semin, Yashin, Radulov, Zherdev, Filatov etc are just a handful of guys who have had problems the past few years. The list of Russians that don't buy into team systems and want to do everything their way isn't small.
That being said, I'd definitely roll the dice on Grigorenko.
I don't see how Russian factor affects Grigorenko much. He came over, that's gotta mean something. I guess it didn't help Radulov, but I still don't see it as much of a risk. He says over and over that KHL isn't in his plans.
Consistency and effort issues, sure. Even if I think they're overblown, I could see how someone would be wary with those flags. But I just don't seen KHL flight risk as factoring in the equation.
It shouldn't, like at all, but that's just the way it goes. Some feel he fits the Russian stereotype of being super skilled but lazy and doesn't seem to care, so they automatically assume he'll go to the KHL for more money. It's no different than Alex Semin, who everyone assumes is always KHL bound, yet he's still sticking around(and good chance he will this year too). Hell, the same thing happened with Kabanov, even though he's pretty much blacklisted from Russia(that was one of many red flags about him).
To be honest, I'm not even so certain Radulov necessarily even wanted to go to the KHL, I think he just didn't and doesn't want to be in Nashville. IMO the KHL factor is completely overblown, but that's just me.
Not really. For every Datsyuk and Malkin there are 10 guys with attitude problems and/or work ethic issues. Kovalev, Semin, Yashin, Radulov, Zherdev, Filatov etc are just a handful of guys who have had problems the past few years. The list of Russians that don't buy into team systems and want to do everything their way isn't small.
That being said, I'd definitely roll the dice on Grigorenko.
Once again this is classic stereotyping. Just because example "a" is russian and falls under what you proclaim to be attitude problems/work ethic issues doesn't mean example "b" is the same just because he is russian.
And if you were to even try to use that as a case there are far more Russian players who've played in the NHL that haven't caused your stereotype issues than the ones that have.
Is it fair to call Canadian players lazy or have work ethic issues? Because for every Crosby there is a Ryan Getzlaf....
Not really. For every Datsyuk and Malkin there are 10 guys with attitude problems and/or work ethic issues. Kovalev, Semin, Yashin, Radulov, Zherdev, Filatov etc are just a handful of guys who have had problems the past few years. The list of Russians that don't buy into team systems and want to do everything their way isn't small.
That being said, I'd definitely roll the dice on Grigorenko.
And for every Zherdev and Filatov, there are ten players without attitude problems. Gonchar, Markov, Voynov, Varlamov, Nabokov, Anisimov, Kulemin, etc.
There were only 24 Russians who played in the NHL last year. It doesn't take many of them being screwups to be an inordinately high percentage of them.
Once again this is classic stereotyping. Just because example "a" is russian and falls under what you proclaim to be attitude problems/work ethic issues doesn't mean example "b" is the same just because he is russian.
And if you were to even try to use that as a case there are far more Russian players who've played in the NHL that haven't caused your stereotype issues than the ones that have.
Is it fair to call Canadian players lazy or have work ethic issues? Because for every Crosby there is a Ryan Getzlaf....
Getzlaf's work ethic is infinitely times better than the likes of a Semin, Kovalev or Radulov. That's a stupid example. I think it's pretty fair to say that over the years Russians have had the highest proportion of guys who have attitude/work ethic issues in the NHL. That combined with the KHL factor is why you see so many Russians fall in the draft and why guys like Burke will generally avoid them.
Getzlaf's work ethic is infinitely times better than the likes of a Semin, Kovalev or Radulov. That's a stupid example. I think it's pretty fair to say that over the years Russians have had the highest proportion of guys who have attitude/work ethic issues in the NHL. That combined with the KHL factor is why you see so many Russians fall in the draft and why guys like Burke will generally avoid them.
I'm not sure you actually understand the definition of stereotyping is. You are trying to lump all Russians in the same category because of your pre conceived notion that most are all the same which is absolutely false. Simple is that..
Now you are trying to use percentages when it's obviously going to be tremendously skewed because there are few Russians to begin with in the NHL. Based off percentages i'm allowed to say there's a 100% chance Jan Mursak is going to be a stud in the league because all Slovenian NHL players(Anze Kopitar) are! When you base percentages off small focus groups of course your numbers are going to be skewed. 9 out of 10 doctors recommend "x" product. Well guess what, the other 10 million might say differently..
I'm not sure you actually understand the definition of stereotyping is. You are trying to lump all Russians in the same category because of your pre conceived notion that most are all the same which is absolutely false. Simple is that..
Now you are trying to use percentages when it's obviously going to be tremendously skewed because there are few Russians to begin with in the NHL. Based off percentages i'm allowed to say there's a 100% chance Jan Mursak is going to be a stud in the league because all Slovenian NHL players(Anze Kopitar) are! When you base percentages off small focus groups of course your numbers are going to be skewed. 9 out of 10 doctors recommend "x" product. Well guess what, the other 10 million might say differently..
I'm not trying to lump all Russians into the same category, I'm saying there is a higher chance of a Russian guy to have attitude problems or bolt for the KHL based on the past history of Russians in the NHL.
I'm not trying to lump all Russians into the same category, I'm saying there is a higher chance of a Russian guy to have attitude problems or bolt for the KHL based on the past history of Russians in the NHL.
In what way am I wrong?
I'd agree that Russians are more likely to bolt to the KHL, only because it makes an unbelievable amount of sense(which is something that gets ignored by a lot of people). But to say a Russian is more likely to have attitude problems because other Russians had attitude problems? That is the definition of stereotyping. It's not much different than trying to say an African-American is more likely to be a criminal or something of that ilk. Statistically speaking you may be correct, but it's still very much stereotyping.
I'd agree that Russians are more likely to bolt to the KHL, only because it makes an unbelievable amount of sense(which is something that gets ignored by a lot of people). But to say a Russian is more likely to have attitude problems because other Russians had attitude problems? That is the definition of stereotyping. It's not much different than trying to say an African-American is more likely to be a criminal or something of that ilk. Statistically speaking you may be correct, but it's still very much stereotyping.
Maybe a better way to put it is saying a higher percentage of Russians are less likely to buy into the systems that North American coaches employ.
