HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Lessons for Leafs from Kings Stanley Cup Win

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-12-2012, 11:37 AM
  #26
Badger Mayhew
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,652
vCash: 500
I agree that our Bottom 6 needs to get bigger and tougher, but realistically, the Kings Top 6 only had Brown as their main tough guy. Leafs don't need huge changes there.

Leafs' Top 6 Career High Hits
Kulemin - 136
Bozak - 117
Macarthur - 115
Lupul - 110
Grabovski - 56
Kessel - 13

Kings' Top 6 Career High Hits
Dustin Brown - 300
Mike Richards - 147
Anze Kopitar - 92
Dustin Penner - 90
Jeff Carter - 65
Justin Williams - 51

Badger Mayhew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 11:40 AM
  #27
indigobuffalo
Portage and Main
 
indigobuffalo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg MB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,371
vCash: 1045
Wow... not surprised to see this thread get reincarnated after yet another Stanley Cup is awarded.

Leafs need goaltending, goaltending wins championships. No wait, it's a young core with lots of top level ELCs in the ranks, no wait, it's build through the draft to get that super elite player, no wait it's having a top coach and GM, no wait it's goalies again, no wait it's defense, no wait it's drafting, no wait it's ... OMG Just stop it already!!!

indigobuffalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 11:52 AM
  #28
Christ
Registered User
 
Christ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
In case you hadn't noticed LA fired their coach during a "Playoffs or Bust" mentality season for them.

Leafs did the same last year when the results failed to meet expectations.

So at least that is one similarity between LA and Toronto that was followed and not ignored.
One significant difference between the Leafs approach and LA's in firing their coaches was that LA fired their coach early enough in the season to rescue it, with the Leafs Burke held on to his coach with misplaced loyalty long after any sane man should have stuck by him. Carlyle arrived after the team had already bottomed out and was no longer a playoff threat.

Christ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 11:57 AM
  #29
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 61,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
One significant difference between the Leafs approach and LA's in firing their coaches was that LA fired their coach early enough in the season to rescue it, with the Leafs Burke held on to his coach with misplaced loyalty long after any sane man should have stuck by him. Carlyle arrived after the team had already bottomed out and was no longer a playoff threat.
Leafs also extended their coach's contract a month before firing him, and that action alone already refutes "any sane man" claims.

__________________
Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:03 PM
  #30
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
In case you hadn't noticed LA fired their coach during a "Playoffs or Bust" mentality season for them.

Leafs did the same last year when the results failed to meet expectations.

So at least that is one similarity between LA and Toronto that was followed and not ignored.
After 9 years of rebuilding I'd imagine a playoffs or bust mentality is expected. Not after 3 and a 1/2.

In case you hadn't noticed, their GM was given a decent hand to play with and lots of time to do it right. He's been with them for 6 years, and had Dustin Brown, Anze Kopitar and others when he started, had the assets to acquire Jack Johnson before the season started, drafted in the top 10 when he got there, then was #4,#2,#5 in his 1st 3 years in LA. They then achieved almost nothing until the last 20 games this season and went on a great run to win a cup.

Patience is a virtue my friend.


Last edited by smoke meat pete*: 06-12-2012 at 12:15 PM.
smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:06 PM
  #31
SprDaVE
Registered User
 
SprDaVE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,168
vCash: 500
Yawn.

This thread is a yearly thing it seems like.

Quick, a goaltender, was the difference maker in that series. The physicality factor was overrated and didn't really make much of a difference in the end.

SprDaVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:16 PM
  #32
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
The physicality made a huge difference against Vancouver. Depth was also a big factor and goaltending was key.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:28 PM
  #33
SnipeCheeseAllDay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,318
vCash: 500
We need guys like Staal and Parise and Luongo if we ever intend on making noise in the playoffs:

Gunnarsson + MacArthur + Bozak for Jordan Staal
Holzer + Connolly + 2nd + 3rd for Luongo

Sign Parise
Sign Schultz
Re-sign Kulemin
Re-sign Franson
Draft Galchenyuk

-------

Lupul - Staal - Kessel
Parise - Grabovski - Kulemin
Frattin - Kadri - Armstrong
Brown - Steckel - Rosehill
-D'Amigo/Lombardi

Phaneuf - Schenn
Schultz - Gardiner
Franson - Liles
-Komisarek

Luongo
Reimer

In the system: Biggs, Ross, Galchenyuk, McKegg, Deschamps, Olden, Blacker, Percy, Scrivens

That looks pretty good to me. The trade proposals could go either way.

SnipeCheeseAllDay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:36 PM
  #34
Obama
Registered User
 
Obama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant123 View Post


In regards to the leafs, I think we are missing #1 and #4 the most.

1) Carlyle's system could possibly turn Reimer in to a good enough goalie though, or Burke goes out and gets one this off season (Luongo? Minnesota fans didn't seem that upset before when their was a proposal for Backstrom?). Regardless we need better goaltending.

2) Phaneuf will be adequate I think. He isn't up there on the same level as those other five people you just listed, but he is still a #1 in my opinion and would have been New Jersey's best defenseman had he been on them (in my opinion).

3) We are slowly working on it. When LACK comes off the books, we should be able to replace them easily with who we have and could possibly form a hard checking bottom 2 lines full of recent picks depending on how all the prospects turn out. Defense we have plenty of depth I think. We don't have (m)any players who could develop into our top 6 forwards though. LA did trade some of their prospects/depth this year to acquire 2 more top 6 players (Richards and Carter). We could do the same, problem is we don't have as good of prospects, but things can change easily in a couple years.

4) This we are currently lacking. Grabo in my opinion is a great #2 center and although on a fair contract now, in a couple years if the cap keeps rising could be on a great one. Steckel I like as a 4th liner who can win those important draws. Bozak definitely isn't a #1 center and I'm not sure if he would be an ideal #3, but more than capable. We are missing the so important #1 guy, hopefully this offseason...
I think a lot of people don't give us enough credit.

Staal?
Grabo
Bozak
Steckel

That's actually a pretty good group of centers.

Lupul-Staal-Kessel
Kulemin-Grabovski-MacA
Frattin-Bozak-Lombardi
Brown-Steckel- WHOEVER

Is a pretty solid group of forwards.

Phaneuf-Gunnarson
Liles-Schenn
Gardiner-Franson

Is a good group of dmen as well

I think if we land Staal and acquire a good goalie, maybe Luongo on a soft deal or someone else, we'll actually be a pretty good hockey team with a bright future. Just be a bit patient right now, it's not that far away.

Obama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:43 PM
  #35
Chandrashekhar Limit
ORANJE 4 LYFE
 
Chandrashekhar Limit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Waterloo, ON
Country: Bangladesh
Posts: 16,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant123 View Post


In regards to the leafs, I think we are missing #1 and #4 the most.
I agree with your assesment for the most part. I believe #1 won't be a problem for us.

As you sugggest, with Carlyle's history of implementing strong defensive systems, I would have full faith in a healthy (no lingering after effects of Concusion) Reimer to hold the fort effectively. Look at what Bryzgalov was able to do with two good defensive teams. I feel Reimer can do the same with a good defense infront of him.

As far as acquiring a goalie goes, I don't think any "star" caliber goalie other than Luongo is a realistic goal. Fans will always say what they want, but the fact is Minny doesn't have anyone close to Backstrom in their system. Hackett is a good prospect, but he hasn't shown anything at the NHL level yet. I don't see them moving him at all.

As for Luongo, like many, I would only want him if it was a soft/cheap deal. He would remove the doubts on almost everyone's minds, but as I've said, I have faith in Reimer.

One thing I feel you overlooked, is our 5th overall pick. With the amount of center/forward talent available this year, I think we can pull out a top 6 forward. We might also trade the pick, for say, a Jordan Staal. Either way, I think that pick solves our 2nd top 6 center issues within 3 years.

Overall, Burke has done a pretty good job of setting up a strong foundation. Just depends on how we utilize our resources to complete the structure now.

Chandrashekhar Limit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:57 PM
  #36
Patty Lee
I hate the Habs
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
On the flip side, it should be noted the Devils got to game 6 of the final without a true number one center or defenseman.
but a legend in the net

Patty Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 01:01 PM
  #37
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,855
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawaiinleaf View Post
The leader was Dustin Brown a power forward who never stopped hitting , running guys, and playing in the other teams crease.

The leafs have no one like this period

The Kings 4th line of big bruisers King Nolan Lewis scored throughout the series and wore down the Devils

The leafs have no size and grit in the bottom 6 to compare

This is why players like Biggs Ross and Tom Wilson are critical every bit as much as highlight reel players
Yep, but we need more elite talent, let's trade all our prospects and picks so we can enjoy highlight reel goals in the regular season. You obviously paid attention, you get it.

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 01:10 PM
  #38
colchar
Registered User
 
colchar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,605
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
we need a goalie of his quality to disguise some of our flaws.

But then we also run the risk of those flaws never being adequately addressed.

colchar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 01:12 PM
  #39
ErnieLeafs
LOVE & LIVE the Game
 
ErnieLeafs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Windsor, Ont.
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,175
vCash: 500
You don't squander a chance to take an elite forward in the top-5, to drop down and take a 3rd liner in the mid-teens.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something, and you probably don't want any part of it.

ErnieLeafs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 01:49 PM
  #40
hockeyfanz
Registered User
 
hockeyfanz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The real lesson to be learned from the Kings winning this year and the Bruins last season is ..

"Defense Wins Championships"

LA gave up 6 goals in 6 games in the Stanley Cup finals.

Size, heart, grit, strength up the middle, strong defense and outstanding goaltending.. Timely well executed trades Richards, Carter, to go along with their draft developed core players Quick, Doughty, Kopitar, Brown spearheaded the Kings to victory.

They're a good model to follow to build a winning team.
Kings were absolutely dominant in the playoffs. 16-4. Incredible. Beating seeds 1, 2 and 3 with such conviction...4-1, 4-0, 4-1 and then very nearly sweeping for the Cup. Cred to the Devils for taking it 6...Brodeur was pretty damn good for an old man. Disappointed in the Finals performance by NJ's big guns..Kovalchuk and Parise although both guys had good runs up until the finals. Love the Kings. Great team. Awesome players, grit, skill, size, speed, goaltending, heart, smart, aggressive. How many of those traits do the Leafs have? I count 1. Speed. and some skill but nowhere near enough.

Burke has his work cut out for him. LA could be the first team to repeat Cup championships in a very long time considering how young the core is and mostly all under contract for next year. Wow.

hockeyfanz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 02:03 PM
  #41
RealisticLeaf55
Hurt a Smurf
 
RealisticLeaf55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ottawa, On.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,939
vCash: 500
I have been saying this since I first started. If we want playoffs we need size in our bottom six. I believe Brown and steckel are great fits but besides that we need players like kelly or jones. We need a hard hitting impact player. We need a third line that can hit and score and a fourth line that can scare people away from the puck. How I miss Tucker, Green, Domi and Corson.

RealisticLeaf55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 02:11 PM
  #42
Chandrashekhar Limit
ORANJE 4 LYFE
 
Chandrashekhar Limit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Waterloo, ON
Country: Bangladesh
Posts: 16,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
I have been saying this since I first started. If we want playoffs we need size in our bottom six. I believe Brown and steckel are great fits but besides that we need players like kelly or jones. We need a hard hitting impact player. We need a third line that can hit and score and a fourth line that can scare people away from the puck. How I miss Tucker, Green, Domi and Corson.
Burke probably feels the same way. If you look at his past draft choices, alot of the player were chosen based on a combination of physical presence, and some skill.

Biggs/Ross/Devane are could be very good role players. We've got lots of quality bottom 6 potential in the system in general.

Chandrashekhar Limit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 02:18 PM
  #43
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,855
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
You don't squander a chance to take an elite forward in the top-5, to drop down and take a 3rd liner in the mid-teens.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something, and you probably don't want any part of it.
Give it up Ernie, Habs are taking Gally. Time you realize this, it will hurt less later.

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 02:44 PM
  #44
Ricky Bobby
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
I have been saying this since I first started. If we want playoffs we need size in our bottom six. I believe Brown and steckel are great fits but besides that we need players like kelly or jones. We need a hard hitting impact player. We need a third line that can hit and score and a fourth line that can scare people away from the puck. How I miss Tucker, Green, Domi and Corson.
Toronto needs good goaltending like what Cujo and then Belfour provided for years. We also need a top center like what Sundin/Gilmour provided for years.

No amount of shifting around 3rd/4th liners will make much of a difference to the fortunes of this team until Reimer or another goalie provides us better goaltending and Bozak/Connolly are slotted 1 but probably 2 spots down the forward depth chart.


Last edited by Ricky Bobby: 06-12-2012 at 03:18 PM.
Ricky Bobby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 03:06 PM
  #45
Grant
LL Genius
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,043
vCash: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama View Post
I think a lot of people don't give us enough credit.

Staal?
Grabo
Bozak
Steckel

That's actually a pretty good group of centers.

Lupul-Staal-Kessel
Kulemin-Grabovski-MacA
Frattin-Bozak-Lombardi
Brown-Steckel- WHOEVER

Is a pretty solid group of forwards.

Phaneuf-Gunnarson
Liles-Schenn
Gardiner-Franson

Is a good group of dmen as well

I think if we land Staal and acquire a good goalie, maybe Luongo on a soft deal or someone else, we'll actually be a pretty good hockey team with a bright future. Just be a bit patient right now, it's not that far away.
I would love that group of centers, I am a big J. Staal fan haha. The main reason I said we are lacking at centers so much is because we are missing the hardest one to get. A team like Chicago you can say doesn't have good center depth, but they are only missing #2 guy, easier to get, but still tough. Staal and Grabo would be a great 1-2 punch for us I think. Neither is a real #1 (unless Staal turns into one) but both I would put above average #2 guys and would be the best centers on some teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
I agree with your assesment for the most part. I believe #1 won't be a problem for us.

As you sugggest, with Carlyle's history of implementing strong defensive systems, I would have full faith in a healthy (no lingering after effects of Concusion) Reimer to hold the fort effectively. Look at what Bryzgalov was able to do with two good defensive teams. I feel Reimer can do the same with a good defense infront of him.

As far as acquiring a goalie goes, I don't think any "star" caliber goalie other than Luongo is a realistic goal. Fans will always say what they want, but the fact is Minny doesn't have anyone close to Backstrom in their system. Hackett is a good prospect, but he hasn't shown anything at the NHL level yet. I don't see them moving him at all.

As for Luongo, like many, I would only want him if it was a soft/cheap deal. He would remove the doubts on almost everyone's minds, but as I've said, I have faith in Reimer.

One thing I feel you overlooked, is our 5th overall pick. With the amount of center/forward talent available this year, I think we can pull out a top 6 forward. We might also trade the pick, for say, a Jordan Staal. Either way, I think that pick solves our 2nd top 6 center issues within 3 years.

Overall, Burke has done a pretty good job of setting up a strong foundation. Just depends on how we utilize our resources to complete the structure now.
Reimer I also have faith in turning it around, I would just rather get some aging veteran on a one or two year deal. Backstrom I didn't think would be available either. But a few Minnesota fans were saying he could be available due to his higher cap hit and the fact they have people like Hackett and Harding (if they resign him). I wasn't overlooking the #5 pick, more just avoiding it, for now. I want to see who we get, and see him play a little more (would love for him to be great at camp and make the team) before I start saying we will draft a top 6 forward this June.

Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 03:32 PM
  #46
-DeMo-
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Huntsville Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,397
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to -DeMo-
there is nothing we can really take from the Kings imo they are stacked

elite #1 center, Defensemen, Winger, and Goalie
they had a 2nd #1 center playing in the 2 hole.
they had a 40 goal scorer sitting on there 2nd line
they had 5 other Dmen capable of being top 4 defensemen.
they had an elite shutdown center for there #3 hole whose great at faceoffs.
and then they had a huge 3-4 lines in size to get out there not be a liability and were great at wearing down there opponents

basically no weaknesses as far as I could see the only way you beat these guys is by having unreal speed. they can outscore the offensive teams and out defend the defensive teams. there depth is amazing because if Kopi isnt doing it Brown was or Richards or Carter or Williams or Doughty or Quick was playing amazing. each game it was a different player or line stepping up.

-DeMo- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 03:48 PM
  #47
ITM
Registered User
 
ITM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 958
vCash: 500
A thread producing verifiable commonality from Cup winner to Cup winner is more credible than the annual gush-fest over the latest championship team.

Lessons to be learned from LA in a tangible way that doesn't attempt to package good fortune, stellar positional performance and the intricacies of favoured chance...
  • Staying In The Moment
  • Constant Clear Communication
  • Relentless Puck Pursuit and Aggressive Board-play

I would be more interested in what got New Jersey to the Final, when it appeared for all intents and purposes, that they "shouldn't have" been there.

ITM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 03:49 PM
  #48
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
they can outscore the offensive teams
They had a pretty tough time doing this all year. Defence and goaltending was their true strength. Fortunately for them their offence stepped up come playoff time too. They are a very deep team. More reason to think we should stay the course and not try to force a "playoffs or bust" like some around here are pushing.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 04:28 PM
  #49
JKsilverstick*
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 884
vCash: 500
The only thing we learned is that there is nothing even close to a single model to winning the cup, and what people should have learned is that the margin is so tiny, and huge changes aren't always necessary.

LA just barely scraped into the playoffs. For 60-70 games of the season, it didn't look like they would make it. 30 games later, with the only real change being trading a defenceman for a scorer and hiring a new coach.

We also learned that teams don't need the best player in every position. They need enough people playing at that level for the 20 games that matter.

We also learned that rebuilding takes a hell of a lot longer than 3 years, and this wasn't even the year that LA planned to win.

JKsilverstick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 04:31 PM
  #50
-DeMo-
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Huntsville Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,397
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to -DeMo-
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
They had a pretty tough time doing this all year. Defence and goaltending was their true strength. Fortunately for them their offence stepped up come playoff time too. They are a very deep team. More reason to think we should stay the course and not try to force a "playoffs or bust" like some around here are pushing.
since acquiring Carter they were producing over a 3 Goals per game pace that would put them among the leagues best.

-DeMo- is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:22 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.