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Messier vs. Trottier

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Old
12-28-2004, 04:24 PM
  #26
OlTimeHockey
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Funny....when choosing between Gretz or Messier, I side with Messier. Greater impact on the team and a dynamic force on and off the ice Gretz never was. Gretz is just there to get assists. Messier changed games and called the game (as pointed out in the two series where he singlehandedly turned the series to a win with a rallying cry). Gretzky cried and got powerplay time (that's all I saw in his ability to change games).

That said, Trottier was a dynamic player I would only put Messier with. The complete package. If I'm building a team, I want one of those two anyday.

Trots was quiet and subtle and went about getting those four Cups on defensive Al Arbour's teams, playing every aspect of the game to perfection. Messier went out in a pure offensive system and added the grit that put him in the HOF category, while teaming with Gretz, Kurri, Anderson, Simpson, etc. (yes, The Isles had Gillies and Bossy and Tonelli, etc., but they all played defense or sat. The Oilers foreward corps played wide open and hard, thus the 400+ goals a year and the practice of calling Paul Coffee a defenseman (man who plays defense?) ).

I think the whole debate is moot and boils down to one's preference. All-out offensive Oilers or defensive Isles? I sided with the Isles and Trottier, but barely. Messier certainly had the physical edge and the longevity, but watching Trottier's passes go tape to tape flawlessly and watching him create plays out of no where and make that line the Trio Grande just spectacular, I have to give Trottier the edge. Again, the slight edge.

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Old
12-28-2004, 04:25 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Trots easily. Messier has been a frickin' cancer to his teams for the past seven years. One of the most over-rated players in *history*.
What exactly happened with Messier in Vancouver?

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12-28-2004, 04:28 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey
Funny....when choosing between Gretz or Messier, I side with Messier. Greater impact on the team and a dynamic force on and off the ice Gretz never was. Gretz is just there to get assists. Messier changed games and called the game (as pointed out in the two series where he singlehandedly turned the series to a win with a rallying cry). Gretzky cried and got powerplay time (that's all I saw in his ability to change games)
Just wondering if you ever saw Gretzky actually play the game ???

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12-28-2004, 05:04 PM
  #29
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Messier

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Old
12-28-2004, 10:30 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Just wondering if you ever saw Gretzky actually play the game ???
All of his career. Amazed at the chances he got/made, amazed at his passes moreso than any talent of any other athlete ever (aside from Pele).

But I am in the minority that sees a difference between a great scorer/offensive dynamo and a great PLAYER.

Gretzky never backchecked. He never was much of a forecheck. And he hung like the biggest twirp in an open hockey game. But when he had the puck, he was awesome.

Trottier and Messier played the game better than Gretzky. Period.

more fire: Lemieux fought three times and did pretty damned well.

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Old
12-29-2004, 09:39 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey
Funny....when choosing between Gretz or Messier, I side with Messier. Greater impact on the team and a dynamic force on and off the ice Gretz never was. Gretz is just there to get assists.
And somehow someway he's the leading all time goalscorer, the all time fastest to 50 and the all time single season goal record holder

Exactly how many times did Trots and Mess get to 50? For the first 15 years of their careers, Gretz was easily better than either player. His amazing offense easily made up for any defensive deficiencies. His plus minus figures were always better than Messier's.

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Old
12-29-2004, 09:58 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
Mark Messier averaged 86 points a year starting in year 13 ending in year 18

Trotts averaged 37 points a year during his years 13 thru 18

Additionally, Messier's numbers are skewerd because the shortened 94-95 season and still had that average.


But it's not all in the numbers. Both players were solid in the defensive ends of the ice, but where Messier gets the edge for me, is in Physical play. That element of his game helped him dominate playoff series like I've never seen before. What he did against Chicago while with Edmonton was not human like. If I'm not mistaken, he pretty much did that on a bum knee to boot?

As for his time in NY, in 96-97, the playoff series against the Devils where he cross-checked Doug Gilmour in the forehead in front of the Devils bench pretty much helped establish the physical dominance in that series and after an opening game loss, the Rangers swpet the Devils out of the PO's. And that was at the end of his physical dominance because in the very next series, Eric Lindros pretty much man-handled Mark.

As a Rangers Fan, I really didn't like Trotts and couldn't understand why he was not as targeted as guys like Bossy, Gillies, Nystrom, Smith and Potvin were and the answer was that he was a quiet player that just went about making my life miserable by killing the Rangers, but never being a standout like the others. Bossy was the lanky fellow that needed an egg sandwich, Gillies and Nystrom, I know a few guys that would go out to bars all night looking to find those two after playing in the garden. Potivn, the mistaken belief that his check on Kent was dirty, and Smith because he was just a royal plick. But Trotts never invoked feelings of hatred or anger from alot of Rangers fans, I was one of the few that absolutely despised him, and I guess that's the biggest compliment that an fan can bestow on an opposing player.

Still, I would take Messier, because as much as I hated Trotts, I hated Messier more.
Ask Bob Gainey how nasty a player Trots could be. A body check that Trots threw on him in the 1984 playoffs separated both of Gainey's shoulders.

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12-29-2004, 10:22 AM
  #33
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Messier in a close one.

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Old
12-29-2004, 10:32 AM
  #34
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I'll take Messier over Trottier and Potvin over Leetch.

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12-29-2004, 10:56 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
And somehow someway he's the leading all time goalscorer, the all time fastest to 50 and the all time single season goal record holder

Exactly how many times did Trots and Mess get to 50? For the first 15 years of their careers, Gretz was easily better than either player. His amazing offense easily made up for any defensive deficiencies. His plus minus figures were always better than Messier's.
So you say building a team on scoring is tantamount to success?

Like the 1996 Stanley Cup Champs the Blues. The Rangers did better with Gretz.

I side with Messier getting twenty guys rolling over Gretzky getting two defensemen confused.

I saw Messier get the '90 Oilers to fruition, the '94 Oilers (I mean Rangers *hehe*) and So one. He's amazing in many aspects.

Gretz is amazing in two. Passing and scoring.

Again, I value what Messier brings over what Gretzky brings tenfold.

But I follow your logic. Would you take Yzerman or Federov? One's a better player, by far, one's a better player for a contending team.

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Old
12-29-2004, 11:10 AM
  #36
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this is one that is Not about numbers.

Trots was an amazing player -- saw him play in person many a time back in the day when you could sneak down and sit in the rink-side seats at MSG. he's an intence mo-fo. BUT . . .

there is only one General Ulysses S. Grant, one Eizenhower, one Mount Rushmore in the NHL -- other than maybe Gordie Howe. Mark Messier (in my opinion, single-handedly) won that '94 cup for the Rangers. Trots had almost nothing to do with Pitts winning late in that storyline.

i've never seen a player like Mess -- he was just SUCH a leader, an inspiration. he could have scored Zero points and he'd still be the most dominant / impressive player i ever saw.

like i say, watching (and loving) those total losers the Rangers fumble around the ice like old ladies year after year, i know what kind of a super-human effort it took to get them out of their wheelchairs to play actual hockey for a season. not only did he have to score the cup-winning goal in game seven himself, but he carried the rest of that team and city with him.

trots is a great player. Mess is a giant without equal.

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Old
12-29-2004, 01:43 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerFan13
What exactly happened with Messier in Vancouver?
Well, it started out by pretty much demanding the retired number of Wayne Maki who died of a brain tumour. He then refused to give up the number when the family complained, giving some cash to charity to ease his conscience.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...anucks_jersey/

Leadership Grade re: Selflessness - F

Next, he steals the captaincy from Linden, causing a massive split in the dressing room, essentially there were two sides, those backing Trevor, and those backing Messier. It's possible to demonstrate leadership without the C on your chest, but not for him. Does he eliminate the problem by stating that he doesn't want or need the C? No. He just let the situation fester for weeks and weeks until Linden was forced to give him the C in Japan before the first game.

Leadership Grade re: Doing What's Best for the Team - F

Next, after "leading" the Canucks straight down the toilet to a *58* point season and the second worst record in the league, when asked by a reporter about his feelings on such a bad season, Messier had the gall to say "I think we had a pretty good year". This was one of the worst years in club history (and for the Canucks, that's saying *a lot*)

Sure, I guess it was a pretty good year for *him*, collecting 6 million bucks for doing absolutely nothing. Didn't even have to play the full season, so he got to spend a ton of time back in South Carolina with the family.

Leadership Grade re: In Touch with Reality - F

And the final coup de grace, the famous Messier guarantees. You know, the ones where he guaranteed the Rangers would make the playoffs after he re-signed back with them. And after missing the playoffs despite his guarantee, what does he do? He guarantees it *again* the next season, and they miss the playoffs yet again.

Leadership Grade re: Backing your Statements - F

Oh, almost forgot the famous Messier "retirement". He didn't even have the class to retire after this past season. Oh, he went out there and collected all the accolades (while doing some odd Charlie Chan impression) because he led everyone to think he was retiring. But he never actually announced he was retiring.

Since he's pretty much only cared about collecting paycheques for the past seven years, the cynic in me suggests he didn't retire so that he could get some of this lockout pay. $10 grand a month for doing nothing? That's right up his alley.

Leadership Grade re: Going out with Class and Dignity - F

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Old
12-29-2004, 09:30 PM
  #38
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This is a great thread, and not just because it is about two of the greatest players I have ever seen.

Few points:

#99 really shouldn't be in this conversation, nor any other comparison. Maybe it's something about us lifelong NYI fans, but I'm with OlTimeHockey in viewing Trottier and Messier as the embodiment of a complete hockey player. That said, #99 truly transcends any comparisons, for his offensive numbers (and I'm not a stat guy per se) are so ridiculously above those of mere mortals.

It is telling about both #19 and #11 that they contributed to Cup winners on multiple teams. Clearly, Messier was the force of that '94 NYR team, while Trottier was a third-line (checking) center, but I would not diminish the latter's role/influence on those two Pen teams, '91 and '92.

Messier was a omnipresent physical threat on the ice. But make no mistake, as pointed out previously, Trottier was a quiet assassin. Very much a forward version of Scott Stevens in that regard. He never passed up an opportunity to physically destroy an opposing player, my favorite being when he put an obscure Canucks forward named Minor through the glass at the Coliseum. Literally.

Thanks to pld459666 for this line: "Gillies and Nystrom, I know a few guys that would go out to bars all night looking to find those two after playing in the garden." :lol Having attended some of those games back in the day, I do not doubt it for a second! Also, "Potvin, the mistaken belief that his check on Kent was dirty..." Bet 90% of the board doesn't have a clue as to this reference! Regardless, you are so correct, and yet the hockey lore lives on some 25 years later with the infamous garden chant.

Also, PecaFan, hilarious characterization of Messier's "retirement" stroll last April: "while doing some odd Charlie Chan impression..." :lol Classic!


Last edited by Trottier: 12-30-2004 at 02:29 PM.
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Old
12-29-2004, 09:50 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey
So you say building a team on scoring is tantamount to success?

Like the 1996 Stanley Cup Champs the Blues. The Rangers did better with Gretz.

I side with Messier getting twenty guys rolling over Gretzky getting two defensemen confused.

I saw Messier get the '90 Oilers to fruition, the '94 Oilers (I mean Rangers *hehe*) and So one. He's amazing in many aspects.

Gretz is amazing in two. Passing and scoring.

Again, I value what Messier brings over what Gretzky brings tenfold.

But I follow your logic. Would you take Yzerman or Federov? One's a better player, by far, one's a better player for a contending team.
Like I stated before, when your numbers are as outstanding as Gretzky's were, your offense more than makes up for any deficiencies. It isn't as if he was only getting 20 or 30 more points than the next guy. He was getting 80 or 90 more. His plus minus numbers were always much better than Messier's when both played on the Oilers, proving my point that his offense and puck control (if he had the puck so much, it meant the other team didn't have it so they couldn't score) more than made up for his deficiencies. Actually Messier wasn't a particularly great defensive forward either. He was a ferocious forechecker and physical force in that regard, but was pretty clueless behind his own team's blueline and was a pretty mediocre backchecker for much of his career. Going back to the Mess for Trots comparison, Trots was far and away a better defensive forward.

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12-30-2004, 12:09 AM
  #40
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A bit OT, but what is this Charlie Chan impersonation? I don't know what that means...

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12-30-2004, 12:54 AM
  #41
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Messier was doing this odd bowing thing at centre ice with his hands clasped. It just looked weird. Better to just stick with a wave.

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12-30-2004, 07:28 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LannysStach
there is only one General Ulysses S. Grant, one Eizenhower, one Mount Rushmore in the NHL -- other than maybe Gordie Howe. Mark Messier (in my opinion, single-handedly) won that '94 cup for the Rangers.
You are aware the 94 Canucks were a team that did not even finish five-hundred that year. The Devils were hardly world beaters that year either.

But it's the only way Mark Messier will have it. To this day things have not changed and the Ranger pay a big price for it on the ice and in the lockeroom. No established coach will touch that job as long as he is part of the organization.

That's why things are done by and for him which is why his gm is still running things and coaches he can control are placed in the job. It was that way in Edmonton toward the end of his time and in Vancouver also.

I admire his talent and abilities (and he still has some skills) but his leadership is more about his way or else, and still is. What he wanted led to the late season 1994 housecleaning and Roger Nielsen's dismissal the year before and what happened in Vancouver. He also had problems with Colin Campbell and openly defied Ron Low.

Anyone can call the writers and make bold statements. Bryan Trottier never needed a C or a writer or any of that. He never got a coach fired or a teammate traded. He was a leader inside the room that was respected without any of that. He came with some nice endorsements from the Avalanche where he was part of a seventh cup.

When Trottier was hired to coach the Rangers he wanted the team to select a captain, he wanted Messier to be a fourth line player at 8-10 minutes a game. Messier did not even show for the press conference and never showed Trottier any respect or support.

Great player? Absolutely. Great leader? No.

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Old
12-31-2004, 08:00 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
You are aware the 94 Canucks were a team that did not even finish five-hundred that year. The Devils were hardly world beaters that year either.
Are you aware that you're wrong? The Canucks were 1 game over .500, and the Devils had the league's 2nd best record, 106 points, 6 points back of the Rangers. The Devils had both more GF and fewer GA than the Rangers, and ranked 2nd in both offense and defense.

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12-31-2004, 06:30 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BM67
Are you aware that you're wrong? The Canucks were 1 game over .500, and the Devils had the league's 2nd best record, 106 points, 6 points back of the Rangers. The Devils had both more GF and fewer GA than the Rangers, and ranked 2nd in both offense and defense.
I stand corrected on both points. That said I'm not too sure what difference it means with regard to Vancouver whether they were a game over or a game under going to an final as an 85 point team. I did not recall the 94 Devils being that good but standings do not lie, they were an excellent team.

Still I do not see Messier leading the Rangers to wins over these teams as any kind of fantastic upset. What's amazing is both those teams almost won and gave such a great effort.


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01-01-2005, 11:48 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey

Gretzky never backchecked. He never was much of a forecheck.
He never had to because the only time he didn't have the puck was when he passed it to Kurri who promptly put the biscuit in the basket.

Interesting debates, bTW. Trottier and Messier are very close to equals. Trottier because of his age though, has a shorter career because teams dumped players once they got into their 30s in the early 90s. It wasn't until expansion in the mid to late 90s forced teams to keep players into their 40s because they weren't as easily repaced due to an extra nine teams.

Also, Denis Potvin is only behind Bobby Orr and Larry Robinson in my not so humble opinion for the best defensemen of my lifetime (1972-present)

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Old
01-01-2005, 12:18 PM
  #46
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I would choose Messier in a close call.

I think some people here got pumped up by this thread about 2 great warrior. Taking Messier or Trottier ahead of Wayne Gretzky. One could argue that Messier was more of the vocal leader of the Oilers but there's no doubt that the entire team was glue together following that phenom called Wayne. He was the leader by outscoring any hockey player there has ever been by a ridiculous margin.

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Old
01-01-2005, 06:29 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Kangaroo
Oh yeah, I would also like to point out thet for the first 8 years of Messiers career, he played behind Gretzky. This means he saw the opposing teams second Deffense pairings and was free of their top checkers who were also concentrating on Gretzky. Trotts was always the marked man on the Island.
I would like to point out that playing behind Gretzky hurt his offense as Gretzky would get the prime minutes.

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