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06-13-2012, 01:07 PM
  #76
CREW99AW
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Originally Posted by malPHONEY View Post
IIRC Cappy moved KO off of JT's wing in January when his production completely fell off a cliff.


You said he didnt score without Tavares.

He didn't move up to Tavares' wing until Jan.

He had 9 points in Dec. and he had 11 pts in March.
He had 12 pts playing alongside Tavares in Jan.

His scoring was inconsistent,but it's untrue to say he only scored when on Tavares' line.

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06-13-2012, 01:19 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by leeroggy View Post
No, but it certainly is fair to ask why it took so long to establish himself. Can you think of anyone else who had their breakthrough season at 29 who played in the AHL for so long? He might have scored more than most Rangers this year but when he played with the Rangers he certainly didn't produce like this. And I think the same about Moulson, who did nothing without JT. Are you really comfortable paying P.A. more than you are paying Moulson? Because that is what it will take to keep him.
Well, nobody knows that but the Rangers' coaches. He was better than a ppg player in the AHL for 3.5 years before the Rangers brought him up and gave him 4th line minutes.

He was 26 when he got his first real opportunity with the Isles and put up 20 goals and 53 points.

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06-13-2012, 01:20 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by malPHONEY View Post
As does letting him go via free agency over pennies.
How do we know it's over pennies? We have no idea what Parenteau is asking or what Garth is offering?

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06-13-2012, 01:24 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BelovedIsles View Post
With PAP this team is a bottom-10 finish, without PAP this team is a bottom-10 finish; PAP isn't much of a difference maker so I am not concerned about the loss. In addition, we don't know what was being offered for PAP at the deadline, could have been a 2nd rounder or middling prospects; again, a loss I can deal with.

My bigger concern is what management does with the remaining cap space, if they reach the min. with legit. contracts, and if they go above the min. (unlikely). Each of these factors will have a greater impact than PAP.

With PAP and no other additions this team is bottom 10. With PAP, a top-4 dman and a couple of depth players, the playoffs are possible.

Without PAP, we will need a top-6 forward in addition to the top-4 dman and depth players to avoid being bottom-10.

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06-13-2012, 01:25 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by periferal View Post
I'm no Snow apologist, but if you're going to crap on him for not trading Parenteau (of all people) before the deadline, then you need to show up at Lou Lamorillo's house and set him on fire for not doing the same with Parise...
Sorry, bad comparison. Parise helped get the Devils to within 2 games of the Stanley Cup. Only the most deluded dreamer believed the Isles had a legitimate shot at even making the playoffs.

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06-13-2012, 01:27 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by malPHONEY View Post
IIRC Cappy moved KO off of JT's wing in January when his production completely fell off a cliff.
He broke up that line when we were not getting production from any other line.

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06-13-2012, 01:31 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
The most the Isles would have gotten for PA is a 3rd round pick. I would have passed on a 3rd round pick with even a remote chance of retaining a 60 pt + guy. The Isles had more of a "remote" chance at signing him. This is a silly conversation and to blame Snow is ridiculous...

There is no "poor asset management" it's just the way the cookie crumbles and sometimes you can't control what your employees do.
We'll never know what Snow was offered, but I think you're underestimating his value. I'd bet anything he got offered more than a 3rd. When you have as few assets as the Isles have you simply cannot afford to lose them for nothing.

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06-13-2012, 01:33 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Franco View Post
We'll never know what Snow was offered, but I think you're underestimating his value. I'd bet anything he got offered more than a 3rd. When you have as few assets as the Isles have you simply cannot afford to lose them for nothing.
Maybe a 2nd and I still would have kept him.

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06-13-2012, 01:39 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Franco View Post
We'll never know what Snow was offered, but I think you're underestimating his value. I'd bet anything he got offered more than a 3rd. When you have as few assets as the Isles have you simply cannot afford to lose them for nothing.
The Isles have tons of assets equal to or better than a 3rd or even late second round pick. The problem is that the Isles don't have NHL players. Adding a pick that has a 25% chance of making the NHL and will take 4 years to do that much isn't going to help. If they had a 25% chance of keeping PAP, it was worth it, since help now is needed more than in the future.

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06-13-2012, 01:47 PM
  #85
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I agree with snow not trading PAP at the deadline......We were not getting offerd a first for him.....W.E he will go somwhere else and be anywhere from a 35-60 pt player making 4mil + for 3+ years...Mayby this is not the worst thing in the world

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06-13-2012, 02:14 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by West Coast Isles Fan View Post
How do we know it's over pennies? We have no idea what Parenteau is asking or what Garth is offering?
On the internet people think what they want. How dare you use a Valid Argument.
For all we know garth offered him 3M and pa sad i want 6 Etc.
but this is the internet so garth offered 4m and pa sad no 4.1.

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06-13-2012, 02:23 PM
  #87
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It's simple. Someone will offer him $4-5 million per year for 3-5 years (like Jones got) and he'll be a 20-25 point player at best. Rather another team overpay than us...

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06-13-2012, 02:31 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper11 View Post
With PAP and no other additions this team is bottom 10. With PAP, a top-4 dman and a couple of depth players, the playoffs are possible.

Without PAP, we will need a top-6 forward in addition to the top-4 dman and depth players to avoid being bottom-10.
Absolutely, but that's what I meant about the remaining capspace. If they use it prudently to replace and augment the roster this team could be in the playoff hunt. PAP is not the end-all, be-all to NYI transactions this offseason.

A) they need to replace his production (IMO there are better options out there than PAP)
B) they need a 2nd-line center (or a valid 3rd liner, ala Stoll, and trade one of Neilsen/Bailey)
C) they need at least ONE top-4 D man, more so two
D) hiring a coach with a better track record and system would help as well

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06-13-2012, 06:52 PM
  #89
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His offense will be tough to replace, but I never viewed P.A. as a long term fixture if we want to eventually compete in the playoffs. Time to inject some size into the top 6 that can also carry offensive duties.

Best of luck to him, he earned a raise. Garth has some holes to fill this year and I pray (pipedream) he will actually acquire NHL ready talent. Let's take the next step, this fanbase deserves something to be excited about.

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06-13-2012, 07:28 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Franco View Post
We'll never know what Snow was offered, but I think you're underestimating his value. I'd bet anything he got offered more than a 3rd. When you have as few assets as the Isles have you simply cannot afford to lose them for nothing.
I'd bet just as much that he didn't....

People are lost in the NHL for "nothing" all the time. It's part of the way it goes. Once again I would not "give up" on the chance to sign a 60 point guy for a third round pick. No way, no how. You may just disagree on what was offered so there is no real way to know, but if it was a third you would still have done that (pretending you don't know that PA isn't resigning and being a Monday morning quarterback)

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06-13-2012, 07:32 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
Oh, you went there. Ok, let's go there all the way then:

What does JT and the boys say when the Islander organization uses fake bonuses, buyouts, and perpetual injury money to reach the cap floor instead of hiring real players to help them?

What does JT and co. say when the Islander organization is unwilling to spend what is necessary to bring in something, anything, to fix the worst defense in the NHL when even average players would improve everyone's stats, and by proxy, the team's overall shot at a playoffs?

What do JT and his bro's think when the Islander organization parades Ricky in and out of the lineup because he is someone's favorite player who shouldn't be playing to begin with?

What do the boys think when they get their nuts handed to them by every physical team in the league, humiliating them as men on the ice game after game, all because the organization doesn't like it's nerdlings sticking up for themselves or supporting them with actual MEN?

Oh, all of that is ok but moving one pending UFA for something to help for the future is going to send the wrong message? I'm stunned the guys in the room care so much for PA. I wonder how they will feel now that he has effectively told them he prefers a few more bucks over their company next season?
I'll tell you exactly what they think "that stuff is out of my control and once again i'm just going to go out and bust my ass every night" LMAO!! What do YOU think they think????

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06-13-2012, 07:37 PM
  #92
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seems we all agree though, PA HAS to be replaced with an equally productive player or we are in BIG trouble!!!

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06-13-2012, 07:45 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
seems we all agree though, PA HAS to be replaced with an equally productive player or we are in BIG trouble!!!
No question. Cant afford losing a guy with that production and EXPECT to get better if you dont at least equal his 67 pts.

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06-13-2012, 07:51 PM
  #94
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seems we all agree though, PA HAS to be replaced with an equally productive player or we are in BIG trouble!!!
Essately!

Expect big problems.

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06-14-2012, 01:39 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
I'll tell you exactly what they think "that stuff is out of my control and once again i'm just going to go out and bust my ass every night" LMAO!! What do YOU think they think????
I don't think they care much one way or the other, which is why they could have moved him in February when everyone knew they weren't making the playoffs.

I am actually LMAO considering you completely missed my point then made it for me without even realizing it.

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06-14-2012, 01:40 AM
  #96
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For some reason, I think Snow might have something else up his sleeve.

My reasoning:

I personally think it was PAs agent that told him not to sign and test the market because the Isles weren't going to offer what he thinks he's worth. I think PA would take less, but agents look for better deals with a better team and a chance at the cup.

In Snow's mind, he thinks, ok, PA is valuable, but not that valuable. Snow would LIKE to keep PA, but it goes both ways. Signing PA would be fine, but there are a lot of young kids making the grade now (a year later), so he can fill the void and give some young talent a chance. By not signing PA, he is saving a potential 4 mill contract WHICH he can diverted to signing a true first line winger OR a true top line Dman.

Depending on how the draft goes...he will either sign a top line Dman or a top line winger and pay in the region of 6 mill/year and possibly a 3-4 year contract.

I'm thinking he goes for a top UFA Dman just because we have a ton of D prospects, but none are clear cut top 2 material. He's done it before (tried with Erhoff) and he might get the go-ahead to slightly overpay for one.


Last edited by steveat: 06-14-2012 at 04:23 AM.
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06-14-2012, 02:19 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
I don't think they care much one way or the other, which is why they could have moved him in February when everyone knew they weren't making the playoffs.

I am actually LMAO considering you completely missed my point then made it for me without even realizing it.
{MOD EDIT}I was talking about Tavares and the players, not management. Tavares isn't concerned about what they do with PA like you claim they are. He is concerned about going out there and helping the team win the way HE can. Not the way anybody else can. I am actually lmao that you read too fast and miss big things!


Last edited by Homeland Security: 06-14-2012 at 11:10 AM. Reason: EDIT
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06-14-2012, 02:26 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by steveat View Post
For some reason, I think Snow might have something else up his sleeve.

My reasoning:

I personally think it was PAs agent that told him not to sign and test the market because the Isles weren't going to offer what he thinks he's worse. I think PA would take less, but agents look for better deals with a better team and a chance at the cup.

In Snow's mind, he thinks, ok, PA is valuable, but not that valuable. Snow would LIKE to keep PA, but it goes both ways. Signing PA would be fine, but there are a lot of young kids making the grade now (a year later), so he can fill the void and give some young talent a chance. By not signing PA, he is saving a potential 4 mill contract WHICH he can diverted to signing a true first line winger OR a true top line Dman.

Depending on how the draft goes...he will either sign a top line Dman or a top line winger and pay in the region of 6 mill/year and possibly a 3-4 year contract.

I'm thinking he goes for a top UFA Dman just because we have a ton of D prospects, but none are clear cut top 2 material. He's done it before (tried with Erhoff) and he might get the go-ahead to slightly overpay for one.
I can see some of what you are saying, but my fear (and belief) is that there is not one rookie in a our farm system who is going to put up 67 points right now. If Snow seriously thinks that loss can be filled by a prospect he's going to be sorely disappointed. Anyway, I don't think he feels that PA can be replaced by a prospect, but didn't want to overpay him. He was walking a fine line of paying him more than other players that are much more valued in the organization.

When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, a player like PA (just like Jason Blake) have to put their career into perspective. PA sits down and says, playing with the Isles has been great and helped my career immensely. I want to stay but I think I can get more money somewhere else. In the back of his mind he wonders if he can produce without JT and be a 1st liner somewhere else. As an athlete, he is going to convince himself "yes" because you don't make it to this level without believing in your skills. So, he wants to prove this to himself and is going to sign somewhere else most likely. So that's the reality of the situation.

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06-14-2012, 04:48 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
I can see some of what you are saying, but my fear (and belief) is that there is not one rookie in a our farm system who is going to put up 67 points right now. If Snow seriously thinks that loss can be filled by a prospect he's going to be sorely disappointed. Anyway, I don't think he feels that PA can be replaced by a prospect, but didn't want to overpay him. He was walking a fine line of paying him more than other players that are much more valued in the organization.

When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, a player like PA (just like Jason Blake) have to put their career into perspective. PA sits down and says, playing with the Isles has been great and helped my career immensely. I want to stay but I think I can get more money somewhere else. In the back of his mind he wonders if he can produce without JT and be a 1st liner somewhere else. As an athlete, he is going to convince himself "yes" because you don't make it to this level without believing in your skills. So, he wants to prove this to himself and is going to sign somewhere else most likely. So that's the reality of the situation.
While I agree there's likely not a rookie that could step in and put up 67 points, I disagree that such is a necessity. For example, I think Okposo, given a full season of first line and first unit pp minutes could equal, or come very close to pap's numbers. Grabner could then replace Okposo's second line minutes and points by returning to form somewhat. And if not grabner, then maybe Bailey with a full season at wing. This becomes especially true if we can add a 2nd line center who adds more offense. But even if we don't add a center, Cizikas seems very capable of replacing what Bailey provided as our 3rd line center last season. Or we could also sign a 3rd line center to give Casey more time. Rolston is easy to replace and improve upon, since he was a wasted roster spot on every line he graced. And Martin will of course be returning.

So, essentially, to keep the same offense from the top 9, in this scenario, we just need Okposo to improve by 20-25 points, which I think Tavares would be able to do for him. Then one of Bailey or grabner need to improve by about 10 points. And then we just need a 3rd line center who can pitch in about 30.

And to improve, say both Bailey and grabner improve, or one improves by more than 10. Say Tavares improves. Say we do add a 2nd line center. Say Martin improves. Say rolston's replacement actually contributes a little. And I don't think it is possible for the 4th line to score any less, so that's another possible area for some.improvement.

Not huge improvements that will propel us to contenders, but I a continued build towards hopefully becoming one. Maybe. Well, fingers crossed, at any rate.

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06-14-2012, 05:36 AM
  #100
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The immediate response to losing PAP is unhappiness that we are losing a guy who scored 50+ and 67 points in his only two seasons with us in the NHL.
But what we will lose if we do not sign PAP amounts to something less than what the point totals seem to represent. PAP is a 2nd line/3rd line type of player, and an incomplete one at that. His strengths are his ability to contribute on the power play by distributing the puck. He is also ok distributing the puck at ES, is very patient with it when he has time and space. But PAP is not a higher echelon 2nd liner and really not physical or big enough to be an effective 3rd liner. His weaknesses outweigh his abilities.
PAP kills most odd-man or break out rushes with some terrible passing. He plays a competitive game but is too small, weak, and slow to the spot to be fully effective at that game. He can get in teh way of his linemates and is subject to bonehead plays.
While losing the points is what jumps out at us, the truth is that PAP's other failings could be improved on even if the individual point totals may not be replaced. But the overall improvement in the top 6 forwards with a player who does all the things that PAP doesnt do well could easily make up for a better mix and improve effectiveness/scoring by the top 6 (with whoever they add to it to replace him) or exceed the offensive performance.
PAP is worth signing but not at inflated prices.


Last edited by BillD: 06-14-2012 at 05:48 AM.
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