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06-30-2012, 11:09 PM
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Adityase
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The Detroit Red Wings winning tradition

Whether we like it or not, the "winning tradition" is perpetually under threat most recently by the one-two punch of NHL parity reaching fruition (an 8 seed* beat a 6 seed for the cup) and the retirement of Lidstrom.

Few will argue that the Wings keeping the idea of a "winning tradition" alive is not paramount when trying to get hometown discounts and also convince free agents to come to the Wings. Yes, the free agent thing is a little overblown, but now that parity has made the NHL a game of inches, it's more important than ever.

The short answer: get the best players, be better than the other teams.

But times are changing. Almost specifically to hurt the Wings advantages. That's a product of our success. We should be flattered. But my question is... how do we stay on top? To me it's about strategy.

1. The old CBA let you keep foreign players forever. Now you can't. The Wings want to let players develop before they get to the AHL and then a few season there. Will the "overripe" concept hurt us? Or do we need to find players we can keep longer? Is that the college kids (and the ones going to college) now?

2. Do we need to get bigger? Is it really that simple? It seems to negate the skill players we've thrived on while other teams have tried to get bigger for 20 years. But are we finally at that point that the NBA is? Normal sized people just cannot play this game (yes, this is a hyperbolic statement... but the point is made I hope).

3. Can we find the next Z and Dats? It seems our Cup formula has started with 2 great centers... and Lids. We'll see (hopefully) if Suter can replace Lids. But who are the next 2 great centers? This keeps me up at night. Yes, my priorities are out of whack.

Okay, those are just my questions. I'm sure you guys have thought about this too. I defer to your knowledge. And thank you for participating!






*Yes, I know the Kings were better than an 8 seed talent wise and the additions of Carter, King and Nolan cannot be understated. Still, it's the first time an 8 seed has won.

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07-01-2012, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adityase View Post
Whether we like it or not, the "winning tradition" is perpetually under threat most recently by the one-two punch of NHL parity reaching fruition (an 8 seed* beat a 6 seed for the cup) and the retirement of Lidstrom.

Few will argue that the Wings keeping the idea of a "winning tradition" alive is not paramount when trying to get hometown discounts and also convince free agents to come to the Wings. Yes, the free agent thing is a little overblown, but now that parity has made the NHL a game of inches, it's more important than ever.

The short answer: get the best players, be better than the other teams.

But times are changing. Almost specifically to hurt the Wings advantages. That's a product of our success. We should be flattered. But my question is... how do we stay on top? To me it's about strategy.

1. The old CBA let you keep foreign players forever. Now you can't. The Wings want to let players develop before they get to the AHL and then a few season there. Will the "overripe" concept hurt us? Or do we need to find players we can keep longer? Is that the college kids (and the ones going to college) now?

2. Do we need to get bigger? Is it really that simple? It seems to negate the skill players we've thrived on while other teams have tried to get bigger for 20 years. But are we finally at that point that the NBA is? Normal sized people just cannot play this game (yes, this is a hyperbolic statement... but the point is made I hope).

3. Can we find the next Z and Dats? It seems our Cup formula has started with 2 great centers... and Lids. We'll see (hopefully) if Suter can replace Lids. But who are the next 2 great centers? This keeps me up at night. Yes, my priorities are out of whack.

Okay, those are just my questions. I'm sure you guys have thought about this too. I defer to your knowledge. And thank you for participating!






*Yes, I know the Kings were better than an 8 seed talent wise and the additions of Carter, King and Nolan cannot be understated. Still, it's the first time an 8 seed has won.

#2 Yes we need to get bigger and more abrasive. Nothing new there, most of us get that. There are a lot of 21 year old children on here who will post it's ok for Malkin and Niedermeyer to try and drop our stars with zero fear of retribution. Kids these days..think you can't second guess Holland and his pasive ways. Sad.

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07-01-2012, 01:13 AM
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Kids these days..

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07-01-2012, 01:39 AM
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lol. Pretty much. What did you think of Niedermeyer's swing at Lidstrom?

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07-01-2012, 01:53 AM
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1. No, the overripe concept shouldn't hurt us per se. It never hurts pretty well knowing where you can slot players in when you have to call them up. That said, it seems like every year a thread pops up here stating player x has proved himself at such a level, why is he stuck there when he should have a spot over player y. You've answered your own question next. Yes, college would be one way to hold onto someone's rights an extra year or two. I think that could easily become the new norm for those draftees labeled as long term projects.

2. Yes we need to get bigger. I'm curious as to why you seemingly equate bigger with less skill. We do need more size, but those players should still possess a good skillset. There's still plenty of average to beow average sized players in the league, so I'd say we haven't reached that point yet.

3. Can we find the next Pavel or Hank? Yes. Have we found either yet? Who knows. Closest I can see would be Jarnkrok, but he's still years off.

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07-01-2012, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garry1221 View Post
1. No, the overripe concept shouldn't hurt us per se. It never hurts pretty well knowing where you can slot players in when you have to call them up. That said, it seems like every year a thread pops up here stating player x has proved himself at such a level, why is he stuck there when he should have a spot over player y. You've answered your own question next. Yes, college would be one way to hold onto someone's rights an extra year or two. I think that could easily become the new norm for those draftees labeled as long term projects.

2. Yes we need to get bigger. I'm curious as to why you seemingly equate bigger with less skill. We do need more size, but those players should still possess a good skillset. There's still plenty of average to beow average sized players in the league, so I'd say we haven't reached that point yet.

3. Can we find the next Pavel or Hank? Yes. Have we found either yet? Who knows. Closest I can see would be Jarnkrok, but he's still years off.
I really don't, but it's more than a fair question. It just seems that for 20 years we've been talking about NA hitters and bigger players (even moreso now than ever) and if size becomes a priority, we won't get some of the smaller players we've targeted in the past (Hudler's my only example off the top of my head and though I'd like to keep him I know that's a minority opinion).

It would be great to get big skilled guys, but that just makes hitting on late picks even harder.

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07-01-2012, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Adityase View Post
1. The old CBA let you keep foreign players forever. Now you can't. The Wings want to let players develop before they get to the AHL and then a few season there. Will the "overripe" concept hurt us? Or do we need to find players we can keep longer? Is that the college kids (and the ones going to college) now?
I was never a huge fan of the overripe concept, but the truth is unless you have a serious blue chipper on your hand, chances are your prospects are better off developing rather than struggling at the highest level. I suppose this would mean the college route, but if you see a great opportunity at the draft, college or not, you draft the best player available and worry about such issues later.

Quote:
2. Do we need to get bigger? Is it really that simple? It seems to negate the skill players we've thrived on while other teams have tried to get bigger for 20 years. But are we finally at that point that the NBA is? Normal sized people just cannot play this game (yes, this is a hyperbolic statement... but the point is made I hope).
If bigger does not replace skill, sure.

Quote:
3. Can we find the next Z and Dats? It seems our Cup formula has started with 2 great centers... and Lids. We'll see (hopefully) if Suter can replace Lids. But who are the next 2 great centers? This keeps me up at night. Yes, my priorities are out of whack.
We do have a lot of prospects who have a high level of talent, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Jurco, etc. I'm very positive we'll have our next batch of Datsyuk/Zetterberg soon. That along with the possibility of signing a star like Parise will keep us flowing.

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07-01-2012, 09:59 AM
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1. The way I see it, Wings haven't had a high pick in ages and haven't drafted a player remotely close to step in within a year for a while either. The overripe concept is perfect for Europeans and college players but a little worse for CHL guys(because truthfully, staying in the AHL for 2-3 years is a long time if you're an obvious NHL talent).

2. We need bigger that doesn't negate skill. The easiest way to do that is to add it to the bottom six, but if you can add a Kovy then all the better.

3. This is where the overripe concept comes in to play. By letting guys get minutes in minor leagues, you let them reach their full potential if there is one. It's quite obvious that you learn more as 21 year old playing offensive minutes and PP, than sheltered minutes in the NHL. Wings are hoping one or two, maybe even three prospects surprise and become better than thought by giving them extra time to work with. Jarnkrok certainly falls into that pile of "hopefully he turns out to be a star rather than 2nd liner". But also Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco and Frk are talents of that sort. If you can hit a homerun with one out of five, it's worth it.

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07-01-2012, 10:21 AM
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>I'm very positive we'll have our next batch of Datsyuk/Zetterberg soon.

Mmm. Not so sure, for Dats anyway. He is a level of elite that not even every team in the league has. It's tough to say our next batch of prospects has someone that has been easily considered a top5 player for the past 4-5 years.

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07-01-2012, 10:52 AM
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>I'm very positive we'll have our next batch of Datsyuk/Zetterberg soon.

Mmm. Not so sure, for Dats anyway. He is a level of elite that not even every team in the league has. It's tough to say our next batch of prospects has someone that has been easily considered a top5 player for the past 4-5 years.
I really feel that Jarnkrok will be that prospect that provides a sharp all-around game, putting up 70+ points and being a consistent Selke threat. His hockey IQ is fantastic and the comparison you most often hear with him is Backstrom.

You also have to be confident that with the Wings developmental abilities, that one or more of Jurco, Nyquist, Tvrdon, Tatar or Frk could potentially be an impact player.

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07-01-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by VladTheImpaler View Post
I really feel that Jarnkrok will be that prospect that provides a sharp all-around game, putting up 70+ points and being a consistent Selke threat. His hockey IQ is fantastic and the comparison you most often hear with him is Backstrom.

You also have to be confident that with the Wings developmental abilities, that one or more of Jurco, Nyquist, Tvrdon, Tatar or Frk could potentially be an impact player.
I think at a certain point, Datsyuk level skill and hockey sense is something you can't develop. Physical and getting a sense for the pace of the game, getting bigger, getting used to the 80 game grind. Those are things you can prep for. You cannot teach someone to see and think the game like Datsyuk or Lidstrom. That's why they are so rare.

It's not that I don't think the Wings don't have a fantastic development program. I just don't think you can constantly find Datsyuk's. Anywhere. It's very much luck that someone you pick turns out to be someone of that caliber. You always hope, but we've seen enough people flash in the pan and fizzle. And the Wings have not had a pick like Crosby or Ovechkin or Malkin in many years now, where things were pretty much guaranteed that they would be superstars. We pick too low for that.

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