HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Offseason Thread 2012 II: Offseason Harder

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-20-2012, 09:45 AM
  #726
Flyersfan1493
Formerly Go For It
 
Flyersfan1493's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Collegeville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Trading a high-potential forward (vanRiemsdyk, Voracek, Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds, Read) to draft any forward other than Yakupov would be the stupidest move in franchise history at best (minus Eminger), and even with Yakupov involved its still not very bright. i.e. Trading Voracek to draft Forsberg.
Simmonds? Read? Stupidest move in franchise history?

Really?

Flyersfan1493 is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:48 AM
  #727
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 14,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
Simmonds? Read? Stupidest move in franchise history?

Really?
Yeah, I was going to leave them out and just include the four...

But Simmonds and Read can be 50 point players; Simmonds 50 points and some physicality.

You're going to throw them away in the hopes that these prospects become 50 point players?

I don't think that's smart. If you trade them away, you draft a need, like a defenseman.


And yes, Voracek or JVR or Couturier or Schenn for a 1st just to draft a forward is pretty pointless.

CS is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 09:50 AM
  #728
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 15,834
vCash: 500
EDIT: Got ninja edited

EDIT 2: Well instead of wasting the space on the interwebs, I will say Read or Simmonds won't get us into the top 8 even with out pick attached I don't think. I really have no clue what to expect Homer to do, but I like that. Keep his cards close to his chest

Also I am starting to really really dislike Boruk.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...edium=referral


Last edited by Prongo: 06-20-2012 at 10:00 AM.
Prongo is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:01 AM
  #729
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,334
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Trading a high-potential forward (vanRiemsdyk, Voracek, Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds, Read) to draft any forward other than Yakupov would be the stupidest move in franchise history at best (minus Eminger), and even with Yakupov involved its still not very bright. i.e. Trading Voracek to draft Forsberg.
Normally I agree with that sentiment, but what if they are having problems signing Voracek (i.e. he wants more money or just a one year deal or something)?

DrinkFightFlyers is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:01 AM
  #730
Psuhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
And yes, Voracek or JVR or Couturier or Schenn for a 1st just to draft a forward is pretty pointless.
I agree complete except about JVR due to his contract. If you needed his cap space for an upgrade somewhere, drafting a high end forward wouldn't be the worst thing in return especially if you think that forward will be better down the line. The Flyers need a sniper like Stamkos or like Brett Hull was, which JVR is not.

Psuhockey is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:13 AM
  #731
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 14,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Normally I agree with that sentiment, but what if they are having problems signing Voracek (i.e. he wants more money or just a one year deal or something)?
Are there any reports that such a thing is going on?

You never know I guess, but even then, if we are having problems signing Voracek, he can be used to acquire a top 4 defenseman. I'm fairly confident of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
I agree complete except about JVR due to his contract. If you needed his cap space for an upgrade somewhere, drafting a high end forward wouldn't be the worst thing in return especially if you think that forward will be better down the line. The Flyers need a sniper like Stamkos or like Brett Hull was, which JVR is not.
You may need JVR at 4.25m. When Hartnell goes, you won't be able to replace his impact without shelling out a pretty penny with the way contracts are going for 50+ point forwards. JVR at 4.25m/year, should he ever reach his 60+ point potential, becomes a steal.

CS is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:31 AM
  #732
46zone
Guttersnipe
 
46zone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,944
vCash: 500
I could live with moving Read if it meant moving up to draft Ceci, Maata, etc., or as part of a package to land a top pairing defenseman. I like him, but he's an expendable asset.

46zone is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:34 AM
  #733
CharlieGirl
Summer
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Yakupov
Galchenyuk
Grigorenko
Forsberg
Teravainen
Faksa
Girgensons

are all European forwards they could move up to get.
*homer alert* If they're moving up to take a forward (doesn't make much sense, but I do have more faith in the organization developing a forward over a defenseman), then Faksa would be a very good pick. Think a better skating Couturier. A solid two-way forward who doesn't shy away from physicality and has a great scoring touch around the net.

CharlieGirl is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:42 AM
  #734
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,334
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Are there any reports that such a thing is going on?

You never know I guess, but even then, if we are having problems signing Voracek, he can be used to acquire a top 4 defenseman. I'm fairly confident of that.
I have no idea if that is going on and I wasn't really suggesting that I would be in favor of trading Voracek solely for a draft pick (I'm also not convinced Voracek gets a top 10 pick in return). I was more seeing how people would feel about packaging multiple picks from this and future drafts but keeping the first we have already.

If they are having issues with Voracek though, I would look to deal him. I would also deal him for a defender like you suggested, but if no one was biting on that and we knew he was either asking for too much or only willing to sign a one year deal I'd take a first pick.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:50 AM
  #735
BillDineen
Registered User
 
BillDineen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,849
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
EDIT: Got ninja edited

EDIT 2: Well instead of wasting the space on the interwebs, I will say Read or Simmonds won't get us into the top 8 even with out pick attached I don't think. I really have no clue what to expect Homer to do, but I like that. Keep his cards close to his chest

Also I am starting to really really dislike Boruk.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...edium=referral
Whatever the opinion of Boruk, the idea makes sense. 2 1rst, 1 2nd and 1 3rd would be lower than market expectations. Nashville would likely be forced to match, but I don't see the downside.

BillDineen is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:52 AM
  #736
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 14,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I have no idea if that is going on and I wasn't really suggesting that I would be in favor of trading Voracek solely for a draft pick (I'm also not convinced Voracek gets a top 10 pick in return). I was more seeing how people would feel about packaging multiple picks from this and future drafts but keeping the first we have already.

If they are having issues with Voracek though, I would look to deal him. I would also deal him for a defender like you suggested, but if no one was biting on that and we knew he was either asking for too much or only willing to sign a one year deal I'd take a first pick.
Well, timing itself is an interesting phenomenon. You pay a lot to have assets gathered in a certain place in a certain time. For example, we should not trade Voracek for a top 10 selection (really defenseman or forward, but for now we'll stay away from that clarification) because none of the players we draft will likely be better than Voracek is now. So assuming we're not doing it to fill a necessity and assuming he wants to be in Philadelphia at a normal (not over the top/out of the question) cap hit, Voracek is worth more than any first round selection in this draft.

However, from a standpoint of a team that is rebuilding, is Voracek really better than a top 10 pick? Since Voracek represents a complimentary player as opposed to a franchise one, regardless of how good Voracek is, he cannot single-handedly alter or hasten a rebuild. So no rebuilding team would offer a 1st round pick for Voracek because the timing is bad. Had their rebuild already started, and they were, for example, Florida only with a top 10 pick this season; not trading a top 10 pick for Voracek given the rare opportunity, considering the position of the organization, would be reckless and irresponsible mismanagement of assets. In fact, they should and would probably add just to make sure it gets done.

As described in my first paragraph though, Philadelphia should have no desire to do that deal.

So when describing Voracek's value as a "top 10 pick," its important to understand all that it entails. It's not so cut and dry.

CS is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 10:55 AM
  #737
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Whatever the opinion of Boruk, the idea makes sense. 2 1rst, 1 2nd and 1 3rd would be lower than market expectations. Nashville would likely be forced to match, but I don't see the downside.
Well, I can think of two possible downsides to a matched offer sheet.

1. Does it screw the Flyers relationship with Nashville, which has been mutually productive over the past decade?
Quote:
I don't really think it would--if anything, Nashville should be grateful to the Flyers for leveraging Weber into a long-term deal at a sub-8 cap hit, but it's a general line of argument re: offer sheets, so I thought it worth a mention.
2. It would prevent Weber from hitting free agency on July 1, 2013, when the Flyers, with Timonen off the books, could make a very compelling offer.
Quote:
Of course, Weber might never get to free agency anyway, but a matched deal along the lines he suggests would guarantee it.

Jack de la Hoya is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:18 AM
  #738
GoneFullHextall
RIP Andy B.
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 35,994
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Think Meltzer mentioned this as well and ridiculed Holmgren for trying to obfuscate this fact..

.
why should Holmgren play his hand and tell everyone he wants to move up? that puts you in a position of weakness.

GoneFullHextall is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:24 AM
  #739
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
why should Holmgren play his hand and tell everyone he wants to move up? that puts you in a position of weakness.
Well, not really.

He could have given a standard, politically correct answer like "Your always looking to improve your team, and of course we're exploring all options in the first round--trading up, trading back, trading the pick for a player--but we're also confident that we will get a player at 20 that will help the club.... etc."

He basically just said the second part, which is what Meltzer called B.S. on. And I don't see how acknowledging the first would have weakened their hand at all in a potential deal.

Jack de la Hoya is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:28 AM
  #740
GoneFullHextall
RIP Andy B.
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 35,994
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Well, not really.

He could have given a standard, politically correct answer like "Your always looking to improve your team, and of course we're exploring all options in the first round--trading up, trading back, trading the pick for a player--but we're also confident that we will get a player at 20 that will help the club.... etc."

He basically just said the second part, which is what Meltzer called B.S. on. And I don't see how acknowledging the first would have weakened their hand at all in a potential deal.
its not really that big of a deal how he said hes looking to stand pat and not tipping his hand. i am sure Holmgren has some kind of plan going into the draft. why should he tell anyone what he wants to do?
I am far from the biggest Holmgren supporter but I have no problem him telling the "media" in Philly he is looking to stay

GoneFullHextall is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:37 AM
  #741
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
its not really that big of a deal how he said hes looking to stand pat and not tipping his hand. i am sure Holmgren has some kind of plan going into the draft. why should he tell anyone what he wants to do?
I am far from the biggest Holmgren supporter but I have no problem him telling the "media" in Philly he is looking to stay
The way I read Meltzer, he doesn't have a problem with it either. He thinks it is to be expected, and basically said not to take it as an indication that the Flyers are actually committed to staying put.

In other words, I don't see where you two disagree.

Jack de la Hoya is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:38 AM
  #742
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
EDIT: Got ninja edited

EDIT 2: Well instead of wasting the space on the interwebs, I will say Read or Simmonds won't get us into the top 8 even with out pick attached I don't think. I really have no clue what to expect Homer to do, but I like that. Keep his cards close to his chest

Also I am starting to really really dislike Boruk.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...edium=referral
He's been on the Weber thing for awhile. Honestly, I like Boruk's apparent passion for hockey, but he adds little to nothing in terms of original thought and insight; he simply regurgitates whatever is the most popular topic of mass hysteria. Well, I guess the Radulov conjecture could qualify for originality, if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt. In general, however, Boruk just panders to the fans (then again, I suppose that's part of his job description). How about actually doing some research and suggesting an under-the-radar player who the Flyers could target and get without gutting their roster?

Amateur Hour is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 11:45 AM
  #743
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 15,834
vCash: 500
Also with the Flyers interviewing players in the top 10 at the draft is maybe just keeping all avenues open. They don't want to go into the draft not having any knowledge of the players who they "could" trade up for. Homer maybe has no plans to move up right now, but 48 hours is a long time for things to change.

He also could be lying, I find no problem with him not telling the media what he is thinking anyway.

Prongo is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 12:07 PM
  #744
Haute Couturier
Registered User
 
Haute Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 6,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
*homer alert* If they're moving up to take a forward (doesn't make much sense, but I do have more faith in the organization developing a forward over a defenseman), then Faksa would be a very good pick. Think a better skating Couturier. A solid two-way forward who doesn't shy away from physicality and has a great scoring touch around the net.
I think Faksa or Girgensons could be the forward they like going by their recent draft history. They largely avoid drafting out of Europe so I'm not sure it is Forsberg or Teravainen. Yakupov would be too costly so its unlikely to be him. I can't imagine the Flyers going after a "lazy Russian" in Grigorenko though I like him myself. Faksa and Girgensons make sense with Galchenyuk being an outside possibility.

Haute Couturier is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 12:16 PM
  #745
DeflatedFootball7
Registered User
 
DeflatedFootball7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Belleville
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,203
vCash: 500
I feel that if we trade up into the top 10, and Grigorenko or Galchenyuk falls to us, it would be a stupid move not to take one.

DeflatedFootball7 is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 12:21 PM
  #746
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,334
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
EDIT: Got ninja edited

EDIT 2: Well instead of wasting the space on the interwebs, I will say Read or Simmonds won't get us into the top 8 even with out pick attached I don't think. I really have no clue what to expect Homer to do, but I like that. Keep his cards close to his chest

Also I am starting to really really dislike Boruk.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...edium=referral
I'd offer sheet Weber. I didn't think we had the pics do so so I never brought it up, but if we have the picks and he signs a long-termer here in Philly, that would be pretty solid. I have to imagine that the Preds match any offer though.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 12:34 PM
  #747
CharlieGirl
Summer
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeflatedFootball7 View Post
I feel that if we trade up into the top 10, and Grigorenko or Galchenyuk falls to us, it would be a stupid move not to take one.
I would pee if the Flyers were able to snag Galchenyuk. It's not the popular opinion, but I prefer his game over Yakupov's.

CharlieGirl is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 12:39 PM
  #748
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
I would pee if the Flyers were able to snag Galchenyuk. It's not the popular opinion, but I prefer his game over Yakupov's.
Just so we're clear on terminology, you're talking about spontaneous loss of bladder retention, correct? I'd probably find myself on the wrong side of continence if the Flyers positioned themselves to be able to draft that high, both out of glee and also despair at what they would have dealt away.

What facets of his game do you find better than Yakupov?

BernieParent is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 12:51 PM
  #749
CharlieGirl
Summer
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
Just so we're clear on terminology, you're talking about spontaneous loss of bladder retention, correct? I'd probably find myself on the wrong side of continence if the Flyers positioned themselves to be able to draft that high, both out of glee and also despair at what they would have dealt away.

What facets of his game do you find better than Yakupov?
I'd be in the same state of mind and wet pants as you - happy they got Galchenyuk but giving myself a concussion with the nearest wall at the same time.

Galchenyuk's skill level is not quite at Yakupov's, but it's not far off. Yakupov will dangle the world and score a highlight reel goal; Galchenyuk won't dangle the ever loving out of opposition, but he'll get the job done. A little bit of flash with substance vs substance without flash. Galchenyuk's game is more well rounded (more like Tyler Seguin vs Taylor Hall, if that makes sense). It's unfortunate that Galchenyuk (and most of this draft class!) had such bad luck with injury this year.

CharlieGirl is offline  
Old
06-20-2012, 01:03 PM
  #750
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
I'd be in the same state of mind and wet pants as you - happy they got Galchenyuk but giving myself a concussion with the nearest wall at the same time.

Galchenyuk's skill level is not quite at Yakupov's, but it's not far off. Yakupov will dangle the world and score a highlight reel goal; Galchenyuk won't dangle the ever loving out of opposition, but he'll get the job done. A little bit of flash with substance vs substance without flash. Galchenyuk's game is more well rounded (more like Tyler Seguin vs Taylor Hall, if that makes sense). It's unfortunate that Galchenyuk (and most of this draft class!) had such bad luck with injury this year.
Thanks very much for your informed opinion, CG. I know you've seen a lot of these young men in action in the junior leagues, and it's good getting the other side of the story beyond the 4-sentence bios and stats.

I suppose for we both that the term "#1 draft pick" has a different connotation.

BernieParent is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.