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Suter's Preferred Destinations in the West

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Old
06-18-2012, 11:45 AM
  #626
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Originally Posted by MNState0fHockey View Post
No, it really doesn't. The fact that you've made the playoffs 20 years in a row gives you zero guarantee that you'll make it this year. Just like the fact that Tiger won 14 majors in the past translates into zero guarantees that he'll ever win another.

Like Tiger, Detroit is aging. Thinking things will continue to roll on as they always have sounds like a whole lot of wishful thinking to me.
It's stupid to compare a aging golf player to a hockey team.

I have a question for you and please put any bias to the side for a second.

Do you think a veteran player like Suter would rather be remembered as a guy who took the reigns after Lidstrom and saved the Red Wings franchise, which has been the best in the sport for essentially his entire life, or do you think he wants to go somewhere that is unproven and has no recent success to try and lift them out of the gutter? Obviously we need to see what happens in the offseason, but the Red Wings have better odds to make the playoffs than Colorado or Minnesota.

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06-18-2012, 11:45 AM
  #627
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Originally Posted by MNState0fHockey View Post
It was a loose analogy, and I used it because the ridiculous logic in the radio conversation reminded me of some of the rationalizations I've read in this thread.

I realize that Detroit can get younger, but for the first time in a while I don't see the sure fire prospects in the wings waiting to take over. Sure, they have some nice prospects, but not nearly as deep as we've seen in the past.
Ummm... If you go as far back as 2001, Datsyuk was ranked something like 19th in Detroit's system...

Zetterberg was ranked 24th amongst prospects by THN in 2002, under guys like Raffi Torres.

EDIT: The article is dated late 1999, Datsyuk was 11th, Zetterberg was 20th.


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06-18-2012, 11:47 AM
  #628
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Originally Posted by MNState0fHockey View Post
It was a loose analogy, and I used it because the ridiculous logic in the radio conversation reminded me of some of the rationalizations I've read in this thread.

I realize that Detroit can get younger, but for the first time in a while I don't see the sure fire prospects in the wings waiting to take over. Sure, they have some nice prospects, but not nearly as deep as we've seen in the past.
They've actually never been deeper at any point in recent memory.

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06-18-2012, 11:48 AM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNState0fHockey View Post
It was a loose analogy, and I used it because the ridiculous logic in the radio conversation reminded me of some of the rationalizations I've read in this thread.

I realize that Detroit can get younger, but for the first time in a while I don't see the sure fire prospects in the wings waiting to take over. Sure, they have some nice prospects, but not nearly as deep as we've seen in the past.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Detroits prospects then...and in particular Detroits history of prospects. Right now the cupboard is more stocked (overall) than it has been in any other season during my lifetime.

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06-18-2012, 11:49 AM
  #630
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Interesting to note, they'll be coached to play without him now.
so they are changing styles now? Someone tell Suter.

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06-18-2012, 11:49 AM
  #631
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so they are changing styles now? Someone tell Suter.
Players are changing roles, the team will play the same brand of hockey.

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06-18-2012, 11:51 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
It's stupid to compare a aging golf player to a hockey team.

I have a question for you and please put any bias to the side for a second.

Do you think a veteran player like Suter would rather be remembered as a guy who took the reigns after Lidstrom and saved the Red Wings franchise, which has been the best in the sport for essentially his entire life, or do you think he wants to go somewhere that is unproven and has no recent success to try and lift them out of the gutter? Obviously we need to see what happens in the offseason, but the Red Wings have better odds to make the playoffs than Colorado or Minnesota.
I just think he wants to win, and do what's best for his family.

I sincerely doubt he cares about "saving the Red Wings" or about the history of the program as much as your fan base would like to think.

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06-18-2012, 11:52 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by irishtemper View Post
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Detroits prospects then...and in particular Detroits history of prospects. Right now the cupboard is more stocked (overall) than it has been in any other season during my lifetime.
I'm quite familiar with the history, which has been outstanding. If you think their current system looks as promising as it has in the past, then you're over-selling IMO.

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06-18-2012, 11:55 AM
  #634
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IMO, Detroit seems like an obvious choice with the retirement of Lidsctrom and availability of minutes.

But I think some people don't realize that San Jose is easily an very good option. Uncle Gary did enjoy his time in San Jose, and I'm sure there is a positive recommendation there.

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06-18-2012, 11:57 AM
  #635
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Players are changing roles, the team will play the same brand of hockey.
You will find out next season that no one will be able to replace Lidstrom. Not even Suter can.

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06-18-2012, 12:00 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by MNState0fHockey View Post
I'm quite familiar with the history, which has been outstanding. If you think their current system looks as promising as it has in the past, then you're over-selling IMO.
Detroit's Top 20 prospects in 2000 according to HF. (Dated Nov. 23rd '99)

1. Jiri Fischer
2. Jesse Wallin
3. Yan Gobulovsky
4. Yuri Butsayev
5. Jason Elliot
6. Darryl Leplante
7. Phillipe Audet
8. Maxim Kuznetsov
9. Ryan Barnes
10. Johan Forsander
11. Pavel Datsyuk
12. Jari Tolsa
13. Andrei Maximenko
14. Johan Wikstrom
15. Tomek Valtonen
16. Adam Deeleuw
17. Aren Miller
18. Calle Steen
19. Kent McDonnel
20. Henrik Zetterberg

The one's in bold are guys who made an impact on the Red Wings roster. (Or would've in Fischer's case, unfortunately)

And Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't even considered "Top 10", which defeats your whole "Sure fire" point.

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06-18-2012, 12:01 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by MNState0fHockey View Post
I'm quite familiar with the history, which has been outstanding. If you think their current system looks as promising as it has in the past, then you're over-selling IMO.
No you aren't as familiar as you think. At no point in time have the Wings had this many quality prospects in their system at one time. Your best bet is if you go back to 2004. THey had Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler, Quincey, Ericsson, Howard, Grigorenko, Fleischmann and Franzen. That was a deep group, but those players as prospects didn't have the potential that Smith, Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Sheahan, Ouellet, Sproul, Mrazek, Jurco, Tvrdon, Marchenko, Backman, Jensen, etc. have.

Comparing these players when they were prospects, the Red Wings have a deeper group with more potential then they did in '04.

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06-18-2012, 12:03 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
IMO, Detroit seems like an obvious choice with the retirement of Lidsctrom and availability of minutes.

But I think some people don't realize that San Jose is easily an very good option. Uncle Gary did enjoy his time in San Jose, and I'm sure there is a positive recommendation there.
I have brought up San Jose as a good destination for him. The quality of living and team there is a big bargaining chip. San Jose could very likely snatch him up.

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06-18-2012, 12:04 PM
  #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
It's stupid to compare a aging golf player to a hockey team.

I have a question for you and please put any bias to the side for a second.

Do you think a veteran player like Suter would rather be remembered as a guy who took the reigns after Lidstrom and saved the Red Wings franchise, which has been the best in the sport for essentially his entire life, or do you think he wants to go somewhere that is unproven and has no recent success to try and lift them out of the gutter? Obviously we need to see what happens in the offseason, but the Red Wings have better odds to make the playoffs than Colorado or Minnesota.
oh, we're putting aside bias now? I'd actually think a guy like Suter would want to come in and be expected to play his way and be considered a part of the reason a team achieved success (as he is in Nashville) rather than be considered a bandaid on a team where everyone is going to be peeling him off and seeing if the wound is healed yet. He is not lidstrom, but he will be expected to be in Detroit even though everyone knows it's unfair.

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06-18-2012, 12:06 PM
  #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Detroit's Top 20 prospects in 2000 according to HF. (Dated Nov. 23rd '99)

1. Jiri Fischer
2. Jesse Wallin
3. Yan Gobulovsky
4. Yuri Butsayev
5. Jason Elliot
6. Darryl Leplante
7. Phillipe Audet
8. Maxim Kuznetsov
9. Ryan Barnes
10. Johan Forsander
11. Pavel Datsyuk
12. Jari Tolsa
13. Andrei Maximenko
14. Johan Wikstrom
15. Tomek Valtonen
16. Adam Deeleuw
17. Aren Miller
18. Calle Steen
19. Kent McDonnel
20. Henrik Zetterberg

The one's in bold are guys who made an impact on the Red Wings roster. (Or would've in Fischer's case, unfortunately)

And Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't even considered "Top 10", which defeats your whole "Sure fire" point.
Whoa...Z was at the bottom ??

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06-18-2012, 12:08 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
No you aren't as familiar as you think. At no point in time have the Wings had this many quality prospects in their system at one time. Your best bet is if you go back to 2004. THey had Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler, Quincey, Ericsson, Howard, Grigorenko, Fleischmann and Franzen. That was a deep group, but those players as prospects didn't have the potential that Smith, Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Sheahan, Ouellet, Sproul, Mrazek, Jurco, Tvrdon, Marchenko, Backman, Jensen, etc. have.

Comparing these players when they were prospects, the Red Wings have a deeper group with more potential then they did in '04.
Never said the. State of their system is bad. I said they don't have the sure fire prospects waiting in the wings to take over. HF ranks Detroit's prospects 10th, and I think the following conveys what I am getting at.

"Many of the Wings top prospects such as Jarnkrok or Pulkkinen are long-term projects. Prospects such as Andrej Nestrasil, Landon Ferraro, and William Coetzee have developed much slower than expected and will likely never reach their potential. The Wings lack goaltending depth, a problem that was exposed this season when starter Jimmy Howard went down with injury and the team struggled to find an adequate replacement."

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06-18-2012, 12:09 PM
  #642
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oh, we're putting aside bias now? I'd actually think a guy like Suter would want to come in and be expected to play his way and be considered a part of the reason a team achieved success (as he is in Nashville) rather than be considered a bandaid on a team where everyone is going to be peeling him off and seeing if the wound is healed yet. He is not lidstrom, but he will be expected to be in Detroit even though everyone knows it's unfair.
Fair enough. I wouldn't consider him a bandaid though you are using that term in an attempt to make what he is doing in Detroit less valuable then what he would be doing elsewhere. But that's fine and I respect your opinion. I don't think anyone would expect him to be Lidstrom. Nobody expected Zetterberg or Datsyuk to be Yzerman or Fedorov. They were given the reigns to the offense and went out and played their game. It worked out.

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06-18-2012, 12:10 PM
  #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Detroit's Top 20 prospects in 2000 according to HF. (Dated Nov. 23rd '99)

1. Jiri Fischer
2. Jesse Wallin
3. Yan Gobulovsky
4. Yuri Butsayev
5. Jason Elliot
6. Darryl Leplante
7. Phillipe Audet
8. Maxim Kuznetsov
9. Ryan Barnes
10. Johan Forsander
11. Pavel Datsyuk
12. Jari Tolsa
13. Andrei Maximenko
14. Johan Wikstrom
15. Tomek Valtonen
16. Adam Deeleuw
17. Aren Miller
18. Calle Steen
19. Kent McDonnel
20. Henrik Zetterberg

The one's in bold are guys who made an impact on the Red Wings roster. (Or would've in Fischer's case, unfortunately)

And Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't even considered "Top 10", which defeats your whole "Sure fire" point.

Fair point.

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06-18-2012, 12:13 PM
  #644
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Nobody expected Zetterberg or Datsyuk to be Yzerman or Fedorov. They were given the reigns to the offense and went out and played their game. It worked out.
They (Datsyuk and Zetterberg) learned from the best. Success creates success.

Like Lidström played first with Paul Coffey, and then with Larry Murphy. When they were gone he was a total beast himself.

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06-18-2012, 12:15 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by MNState0fHockey View Post
Never said the. State of their system is bad. I said they don't have the sure fire prospects waiting in the wings to take over. HF ranks Detroit's prospects 10th, and I think the following conveys what I am getting at.

"Many of the Wings top prospects such as Jarnkrok or Pulkkinen are long-term projects. Prospects such as Andrej Nestrasil, Landon Ferraro, and William Coetzee have developed much slower than expected and will likely never reach their potential. The Wings lack goaltending depth, a problem that was exposed this season when starter Jimmy Howard went down with injury and the team struggled to find an adequate replacement."
That doesn't mention players like Nyquist, Smith, Ouellet (QMJHL D-man of the year finalist), Jurco, Tatar, etc. When Datsyuk and Zetterberg were prospects they were by no means sure fire. Nestrasil, Ferraro, and Coetzee are second tier prospects for the Wings. Not even top 15 guys.

The Wild and Red Wings both have one sure fire prospect in my opinion and it's Granlund and Smith. The rest are by no means can't miss guys.

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06-18-2012, 12:18 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
They (Datsyuk and Zetterberg) learned from the best. Success creates success.

Like Lidström played first with Paul Coffey, and then with Larry Murphy. When they were gone he was a total beast himself.
That's very true. That is why I think the Wings have a good advantage with their current prospects. Guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkrok, Jurco, etc. will be learning from Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, etc. The Wings are in a very good position as far as their prospects are concerned. They are possibly a top pair defenseman and a top line sniper away from being legit again. That is very possible this offseason.

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06-18-2012, 12:22 PM
  #647
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That's very true. That is why I think the Wings have a good advantage with their current prospects. Guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkrok, Jurco, etc. will be learning from Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, etc. The Wings are in a very good position as far as their prospects are concerned. They are possibly a top pair defenseman and a top line sniper away from being legit again. That is very possible this offseason.
I agree with this. But where are they without either one?

How would the avs look with both Suter and Parise in their lineup? Im sure they would be considered a strong team going into the season.

The problem is how do all the teams look WITHOUT Suter and Parise in their lineup? Isnt that ultimately what you would ask yourself if you were joining a team?

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06-18-2012, 12:29 PM
  #648
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I agree with this. But where are they without either one?

How would the avs look with both Suter and Parise in their lineup? Im sure they would be considered a strong team going into the season.

The problem is how do all the teams look WITHOUT Suter and Parise in their lineup? Isnt that ultimately what you would ask yourself if you were joining a team?
I think you do look at the current team, and you look at how you would benefit them. There are hundreds of different things to consider for him going in choosing a team, and I think Nashville is probably the best bet, but we will havet o wait and see. If the Avs got Suter and Parise they would be legit contenders no doubt about it.

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06-18-2012, 12:32 PM
  #649
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With the possible exception of Columbus, any team adding Suter and Parise is a contender.

Plain and simple, no one knows what Suter is thinking. We can speculate all we want, but we dont know what he (or his family) values.

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06-18-2012, 12:33 PM
  #650
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But I think some people don't realize that San Jose is easily an very good option. Uncle Gary did enjoy his time in San Jose, and I'm sure there is a positive recommendation there.
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I have brought up San Jose as a good destination for him. The quality of living and team there is a big bargaining chip. San Jose could very likely snatch him up.
My guess with Stuart about to sign today it looks like they won't be in the running. They would have 6 Dmen signed. This puts them at 15 total with 11.? remaining to sign 8 guys. I guess they could always unload some salary but would they want to tie up that much in D

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