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BUF-SJ (Roy++/Pavelski+)

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06-15-2012, 08:55 AM
  #1
sabresnyper
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BUF-SJ (Roy++/Pavelski+)

To SJ:
Derek Roy
#12
#21

To Buf:
Pavelski
#17

Thoughts? (First proposal)

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Old
06-15-2012, 09:04 AM
  #2
stokes84
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These Roy for Pavelski trade ideas from Buffalo are getting annoying, especially considering we always end up adding. First off, we want to get bigger in the middle. Pavelski doesn't do that. Second, it is very, very easy to argue that Roy alone is the better player. Why would we add to downgrade?

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06-15-2012, 09:24 AM
  #3
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If we're trading Pavs, it's for a natural winger, not another center.

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Old
06-15-2012, 09:46 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
If we're trading Pavs, it's for a natural winger, not another center.
Roy plays very well at LW. But that's besides the point, Buffalo says heck no to this deal.

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06-15-2012, 09:48 AM
  #5
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I think the Roy/Pavelski idea is done. Neither side likes it, so please stop offering it.

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06-15-2012, 09:56 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Second, it is very, very easy to argue that Roy alone is the better player.
Would really like to see you try.

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06-15-2012, 09:58 AM
  #7
HiddenInLight
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Would really like to see you try.
Considering that the two of them are pretty much equal in value, its not too big of a stretch.

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06-15-2012, 10:09 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falco5 View Post
Would really like to see you try.
Career better scorer while playing against other teams shut down units and playing top unit PP and PK and being teams leading forward in ice time and scoring frequently.

Pavelski scores less despite being sheltered and never having the responsibility of being the man on his own team.

Too easy.

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06-15-2012, 10:11 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Pavelski scores less despite being sheltered and never having the responsibility of being the man on his own team.

Too easy.

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Old
06-15-2012, 10:14 AM
  #10
hockeyball
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Considering that the two of them are pretty much equal in value, its not too big of a stretch.
Roy's put up 35 and 44 points in the last two seasons where Pavelski has put up 66 and 61.

51 goals for Pavelski to 27 for Roy.

Same salary, but an extra year on Pavelski's contract.

Roy is more injury prone.

Pavelski see's substantially higher competition (highest on the Sharks).

Pavelski has more goals/60 and more primary assists/60

Pavelski has lower GA/60 than roy by almost half a goal (that's a big margin).


I could go on, it's not really close. Their value is quite a bit different. I have zero interest in Roy.

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Old
06-15-2012, 10:14 AM
  #11
stokes84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
Are three laughy faces an argument?

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Old
06-15-2012, 10:15 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Are three laughy faces an argument?
Everything you said is factually incorrect. I just looked it all up (and posted a summary). Pavelski see's substantially higher competition, is better in every defensive stat, and puts up more points by a big margin.

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06-15-2012, 10:17 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Are three laughy faces an argument?
Oh sorry, I thought you were making a joke when you said Joe Pavelski plays sheltered minutes.

Feel free to try and make that argument. Go ahead, give it a shot. I need some amusement to get my day started.

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06-15-2012, 10:19 AM
  #14
stokes84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Pavelski's put up 35 and 44 points in the last two seasons where Pavelski has put up 66 and 61.

51 goals for Pavelski to 27 for Roy.

Same salary, but an extra year on Pavelski's contract.

Roy is more injury prone.

Pavelski see's substantially higher competition (highest on the Sharks).

Pavelski has more goals/60 and more primary assists/60

Pavelski has lower GA/60 than roy by almost half a goal (that's a big margin).


I could go on, it's not really close. Their value is quite a bit different. I have zero interest in Roy.
Could you cherry pick your arguments a little more? Playing against better competition? Ah, these stats are so faulty. Most shutdown units get a low competition rating because. They are out there to defend, not score.

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06-15-2012, 10:19 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Are three laughy faces an argument?
When countering a baseless statement...I would say it's appropriate.

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06-15-2012, 10:21 AM
  #16
hockeyball
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Could you cherry pick your arguments a little more? Playing against better competition? Ah, these stats are so faulty. Most shutdown units get a low competition rating because. They are out there to defend, not score.
I use Corsi Qualcomp as it is MUCH more indicative of actually competition quality.

I didn't cherry pick at all. Let's hear some numbers that prove Roy's value is even equal to Pavelski's, let alone superior. I'm happy to have a stats argument with you if you like, I don't think it's going to be hard.

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06-15-2012, 10:22 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Most shutdown units get a low competition rating because. They are out there to defend, not score.
...

What?

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Old
06-15-2012, 10:25 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty Ice View Post
When countering a baseless statement...I would say it's appropriate.
Throughout his career, who have shut down lines focused on, Pavelski or Thornton?

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Old
06-15-2012, 10:26 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Throughout his career, who have shut down lines focused on, Pavelski or Thornton?
Well Pavelski played on Thornton's line last season so...

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06-15-2012, 10:28 AM
  #20
hockeyball
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
...

What?
Yah, that doesn't even make sense...

I think he's trying to refer to +-QoC which basis competition quality on +-. The real reason that is flawed is because poor teams tend to have lower +- ratings across the board thus skewing the stat. I find it fairly useless.

Corsi QoC bases competition quality on the corsi of the opposing team mates (corsi is the on ice shot differential, goals + saves + missed shots + blocks) which is much more indicitive of the quality of players that player is routinely facing. Pavelski was ranked 30th among all forwards who played more than 40 games last season, Roy was ranked 121st. They really are not in the same league defensively.

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06-15-2012, 10:28 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
Well Pavelski played on Thornton's line last season so...
Did I say last season or did I say career? So...

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06-15-2012, 10:30 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Throughout his career, who have shut down lines focused on, Pavelski or Thornton?
Pavelski has seen higher competition quality than JT over the last two seasons. Pavelski is without a doubt our best defensive forward and he put out on the ice to shut down the opposings best whenever possible. I would literally put Pavelski up for Selke candidacy this season, but his play generally goes unnoticed by the media. His stats put him as one of the top producing defensive forwards in the league.

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06-15-2012, 10:33 AM
  #23
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Did I say last season or did I say career? So...
Well seeing as he put up the same amount of points as he normally does playing with Thornton last year it seems it doesn't matter.

This is all ignoring the fact the Pavs is the go to guy for shutting down the opposition top players.

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06-15-2012, 10:33 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Did I say last season or did I say career? So...
Career is pretty irrelevant. I generally stick to the last 2-3 seasons when comparing players. Basing value on what a player did 4+ years ago is pretty dumb, especially since 4 years ago Pavelski was just finding his stride as a player.

I still haven't seen a single stat from you to refute my 'cherry picking' insult.

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Old
06-15-2012, 10:35 AM
  #25
stokes84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Yah, that doesn't even make sense...

I think he's trying to refer to +-QoC which basis competition quality on +-. The real reason that is flawed is because poor teams tend to have lower +- ratings across the board thus skewing the stat. I find it fairly useless.

Corsi QoC bases competition quality on the corsi of the opposing team mates (corsi is the on ice shot differential, goals + saves + missed shots + blocks) which is much more indicitive of the quality of players that player is routinely facing. Pavelski was ranked 30th among all forwards who played more than 40 games last season, Roy was ranked 121st. They really are not in the same league defensively.
No, it makes perfect sense. If you are playing against Paul Gaustad, you are playing against a player with a low score. But he was Buffalos top shut down forward who plays against the malkins, etc. If you play against Vanek, who has will give you a higher score despite his less defensive nature.

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