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06-16-2012, 07:54 PM
  #26
Sportsfan1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaLoN View Post
I'd put Larsson above Zucker as well, and I wouldn't list Almond at all. He's not an NHL player IMO.
Almond will be off after this years draft anyway. After Coyle and Granlund i CAN'T WAIT to see Larrsson!

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06-16-2012, 07:56 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaLoN View Post
Disagree there as well. They are ranked so evenly because you can't really tell who WILL BE a better NHL player. Thus the discussion of where they are ranked is boiling down to who's more ready of the 3 right now. That's why I have Larsson ahead of both Zucker and Bulmer right now.

Add in the fact that Larsson's game is the most versatile (can play up and down the line up at either center or wing), gives him more of an edge for making the team as well.
All prospect talk ultimately comes down to who will be a better player. And there cannot be an answer for that until we see how those players do in NHL. You can't get all aggressive and cocky on me just because you think that Larsson will be better than Zucker and Bulmer. For the record, I haven't even expressed my opinion on any of these players.

And for the record, yes, I can read. I am aware of what this discussion is about, as I've been following it while enjoying a snack and waiting for the feces to hit the fan.

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06-16-2012, 08:01 PM
  #28
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For the record btw I am extremely high on all of the big five Granlund, Brodin, Larrsson, Coyle and Zucker and don't really rank one over the other. I think Larrsson and Zucker will be terrific linemates one day actually, but both should start out in Houston at the beginning of the year just to get their feet wet.

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06-16-2012, 08:03 PM
  #29
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I'm not getting agressive or cocky on anyone for the record.

Just pointing out that I have NO IDEA who will be better, and my ranking right now on which is ahead of the other has nothing to do with who I think will be better.

If you want me to make a prediction, I think Zucker has the best shot at being a top 6 player of the 3, but I still rank Larsson ahead of Zucker.

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06-16-2012, 08:03 PM
  #30
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I'll go back to my original proposition - they are special prospects. So is Bulmer. As is Granlund. And Gustafsson.

That may end up being a draft for the ages folks.

But it also shows how the Wild need to be REALLY careful about throwing unproven prospects on the trade wire. None of us know for sure how these guys will pan out, in spite of positive progress - Zucker has little pro experience: Larsson has little NA experience.

Who's the better prospect? Choose at your own risk.

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06-16-2012, 08:03 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportsfan1 View Post
For the record btw I am extremely high on all of the big five Granlund, Brodin, Larrsson, Coyle and Zucker and don't really rank one over the other. I think Larrsson and Zucker will be terrific linemates one day actually, but both should start out in Houston at the beginning of the year just to get their feet wet.
Larsson. Not Larrson.

A protip: It means litherally "Son of Lars", in similar fashion to "Karlsson" meaning "Son of Karl". Both are Scandinavian names, and always written with two "s".

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06-16-2012, 08:04 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportsfan1 View Post
For the record btw I am extremely high on all of the big five Granlund, Brodin, Larrsson, Coyle and Zucker and don't really rank one over the other. I think Larrsson and Zucker will be terrific linemates one day actually, but both should start out in Houston at the beginning of the year just to get their feet wet.
Disgree, I think Larsson makes the big club.

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06-16-2012, 08:05 PM
  #33
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If they start Granlund on the wing yes i think Larrson's () chances of making the team go way up.

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06-16-2012, 08:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Sportsfan1 View Post
If they start Granlund on the wing yes i think Larrson's () chances of making the team go way up.
I think both make the big club, and both will play on the wing.

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06-16-2012, 08:08 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TaLoN View Post
I think both make the big club, and both will play on the wing.
Hey Talon, we need SOMEONE to play center though.

Seriously though, most SC teams now win because they are so deep down the middle, look at the Kings. I REALLY want to see at least one of these kids develop at center to help give us the depth we need.

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06-16-2012, 08:15 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Sportsfan1 View Post
Hey Talon, we need SOMEONE to play center though.

Seriously though, most SC teams now win because they are so deep down the middle, look at the Kings. I REALLY want to see at least one of these kids develop at center to help give us the depth we need.
i wonder if they will try and develop coyle as a center. Definitely see granlund as more of a wing, same with phillips...

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06-16-2012, 08:16 PM
  #37
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The thing is, we HAVE depth in the middle, even well into the future. There is Mikko Koivu, Mikael Granlund, Kyle Brodziak, Darrol Powe, Zack Phillips, Johan Larsson, Charlie Coyle and our AHL players as well and more to come. We can only play 4 centers and I think Koivu, Granlund and Brodziak are pretty much locks for the future. That leaves us basically the 4th line center duty and, well, I don't see why Powe can't play that role.

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06-16-2012, 08:24 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jbcraig1883 View Post
Isn't that a bit of a straw man, though? 500 NHL games for a veteran versus a prospect is different than two individuals, similar in age, potential, etc. I see how my logic was faulty with just switching roles but I still do not believe that Zucker's NHL experience automatically bumps him higher than Larsson.

So you have Zucker ranked higher than Granlund then? Honest question. I am trying to understand your logic for ranking Zucker higher than Larsson. My understanding is based on the fact Zucker has played in the NHL and did not seem too far out of place (and you did state he obviously has work to do) whereas Larsson has not played in the NHL or in NA.

So if that logic is correct, would't it be concluded that Zucker should be ranked higher than Granlund since he has not played in the NHL?

PS. If you are still reading, I am just explaining my thought process. I am all for being educated on proper logic/argument structure. I am not trying to be egotistical or come across as a knowitall. Feel free to learn me!
It's an argument ad absurdum. I was showing logical fault by applying it to an absurd (but still relevant) situation to exacerbate the flaw in the argument.

My logic in this case is that Bulmer, Larsson, and Zucker are all very close in rank. Since they are very close in rank, all having points where one might be better than the other, but each possessing faults that could rank them lower, the fact that we have seen how Zucker's game translates to the NHL level makes him "safer" without changing the quality of his other attributes. We know that he's not going to have an issue translating him game to the NHL level, he just needs to finish developing in other ways before he is an NHLer.

With Larsson, we just don't know because he hasn't had the opportunity to show anything one way or the other. It could translate perfectly, but there could also be problems with it where he needs to adjust. If he needs adjustments, that's going to affect other parts of his game and development as well, pushing him down value-wise. It doesn't mean he couldn't eventually be the best of the bunch, it just means that he has an extra question mark that those he's being compared to don't have.

So to answer the Granlund question, Granlund's other attributes are so much better than Zucker that the NHL time Zucker has had isn't nearly enough to bridge that gap.

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06-16-2012, 08:30 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
i wonder if they will try and develop coyle as a center. Definitely see granlund as more of a wing, same with phillips...
Coyle I believe will be developed as a center unless they come across something that convinces them he won't make it there. Granlund I think they will give every opportunity to be a center, but won't be afraid to move him to wing at any point if need be. Phillips should be a wing. Larsson, I think, is in the Coyle boat in that he'll be given every shot at center unless he proves he shouldn't be there.

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06-16-2012, 08:41 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
i wonder if they will try and develop coyle as a center. Definitely see granlund as more of a wing, same with phillips...
I see Granlund long term as a center and I see Larsson always being a tweener, playing wing and center depending on need. Coyle I see as a center and Phillips as a tweener.

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06-16-2012, 10:26 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
It's an argument ad absurdum. I was showing logical fault by applying it to an absurd (but still relevant) situation to exacerbate the flaw in the argument.

My logic in this case is that Bulmer, Larsson, and Zucker are all very close in rank. Since they are very close in rank, all having points where one might be better than the other, but each possessing faults that could rank them lower, the fact that we have seen how Zucker's game translates to the NHL level makes him "safer" without changing the quality of his other attributes. We know that he's not going to have an issue translating him game to the NHL level, he just needs to finish developing in other ways before he is an NHLer.

With Larsson, we just don't know because he hasn't had the opportunity to show anything one way or the other. It could translate perfectly, but there could also be problems with it where he needs to adjust. If he needs adjustments, that's going to affect other parts of his game and development as well, pushing him down value-wise. It doesn't mean he couldn't eventually be the best of the bunch, it just means that he has an extra question mark that those he's being compared to don't have.

So to answer the Granlund question, Granlund's other attributes are so much better than Zucker that the NHL time Zucker has had isn't nearly enough to bridge that gap.


Thank you for your explanation, squidz.

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06-17-2012, 08:35 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Ultimately, people have made a ridiculous deal about the SEL. It's a good league, and prospects there are playing against men, but there's a reason a lot of those men are playing in the SEL and not the NHL, and for the most part it's not because they don't want to be in the NHL. Larsson has at least as many things to learn and improve and prove in North America before anyone can be so certain of his NHL success. He had an opportunity to make an impression against NHL competition at the WC and failed to impress. He's a quality prospect with a bright future, but those ranking him over Zucker and Bulmer are generally buying way too much into hope and fantasy than realistic projection and evidence.
So in your mind you believe that given Larsson the same 8-9 game stint that Zucker and Bulmer got he wouldn't of done as well or not better?

I think what he proved in a Professional league last season..not college/Junior says that he would of at the very least matched the play of Bulmer and Zucker when they were here.

Something tells me you will be pleasantly suprised with Larsson. Not many players that young put up points in the SEL, play a significant role on a championship team,captain their WJC team to a gold medal,put up great numbers against their peers in the U18 and WJC and also win the SEL rookie of the year award which if you noticed some pretty good players have won(Zetterburg,Karlsson,Hornqvist)

That list above is enough to make you sound silly thinking that just because Bulmer and Zucker each got a cup of tea in the NHL last year they are automatically the better prospect is absurd.

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06-17-2012, 08:57 AM
  #43
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Coyle will be a wing who takes faceoffs every now and then.

edit: and i can tell you for a fact that the Wild feel Larsson is well ahead of Zucker and Bulmer in terms of expected contribution. He has higher upside and the other two can contribute in bottom six roles so one or the other--Bulmer, i would expect--will probably see more NHL time sooner, but Larsson is at the moment a better player than either and is expected to widen the gap as he develops. He will be running **** on the ice when he's mature.


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06-17-2012, 09:42 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Beegoalie View Post
So in your mind you believe that given Larsson the same 8-9 game stint that Zucker and Bulmer got he wouldn't of done as well or not better?
That's a bizarre thing to get out of that post. In my mind (and in reality) as I said in that post, we don't know how he would have done. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks might have maybe happened. No one knows how Larsson would have done because it didn't happen. Since no one knows, they can't use that to temper fears about his transition, because we don't know if we should be tempering those fears or not.

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06-17-2012, 11:24 AM
  #45
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I think Larsson and Zucker can both play the same type of games right now. That being players who can play in any situation and have tremendous character qualities.

I would, however, rank Zucker higher as I feel he's got a pure scoring upside that is higher than any player in the organization. And he plays at a speed that no other player does either. He will need some time to adjust to playing at that speed at the NHL level, though.

I see both players being on the same tier, if you will. Though, I think there's more untapped potential in Zucker's game than Larsson's. With rating any prospect, it's always really a discussion weighing reasonable aim/absolute ceiling...

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06-18-2012, 05:00 PM
  #46
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I would, however, rank Zucker higher as I feel he's got a pure scoring upside that is higher than any player in the organization. And he plays at a speed that no other player does either. He will need some time to adjust to playing at that speed at the NHL level, though.

I hope your right but even like Flahr and Fletcher have always said..they drafted him as a top 9 forward. Not necessarily a top 6 player. He has surpassed expectations thus far in the WJC and college to make people beleive he can score in the NHL(which i hope he can one day)

I'd start him in Houston to let him develop playing PP and PK and becoming a go to player in the AHL then when he's ready bring him up for a top 9 role on the Wild. With Larsson I think he can come up right away and develop here just the same as he would in the AHL because of his 2 previous seasons in the SEL playing professional hockey and being an important player on arguably the best team in Europe..it won't hurt him to play on the 3rd line getting 13 minutes a game if he does make the team this year.

Just my opinion though..

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