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Old
10-17-2013, 03:34 PM
  #1
Betamax*
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The All-Encompassing Shot Blocking Discussion Thread

References to Previous Links that had discussion on the merits and demerits of Shot blocking:

The Armchair Coaching Thread - Retorting The Torts!!!

The Armchair Coaching Thread [MOD WARNING in OP]

I felt it would be better to separate the "Shot Blocking" discussion that grew from the The two Armchair Coaching Threads to not have it be a dominating topic when those threads would probably be best served to discuss issues when it comes to forward lines, defense pairings and who should start in net etc..

A couple of stats based articles on shot blocking where submitted for evaluation:

The Whos and Hows of 2013 5v5 Shotblocking - by Tyler Dellow - September 22, 2013

A POINT ABOUT TORTORELLA AND SHOT BLOCKING - Cam Charron - October 08 2013 12:53PM

As I stated in those thread, I wasn't convinced by the way Cam Charron approached his Coach Torts' and Shot Blocking study and as I said in those thread, I planned on providing mu reasons in greater detail ... and I will ... when there's a longer break between games involving the Canucks.

But I think this thread, which I think could be a useful tool to track how many "injuries" are incurred by Canucks Players during the season. I will endeavor to make a point to update every incident I know of where a shot block has caused injury -- even if the player doesn't "miss" a man-game.

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10-17-2013, 03:41 PM
  #2
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Bobby Orr weighed in on the issue of shot-blocking and singled out the infamous Gregory Campbell "shot block" that broke his leg in the 2013 Playoffs:

Bobby Orr explains the rules he would change to make the NHL safer
STEPHEN WHYNO
TORONTO — The Canadian Press
Published Wednesday, Oct. 16 2013, 9:19 AM EDT
Last updated Wednesday, Oct. 16 2013, 4:50 PM EDT

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle14885057/

Excerpt:

Quote:
But Orr pointed to Boston Bruins forward Gregory Campbell’s broken leg while blocking a shot on a penalty kill in last year’s playoffs as an instance in which new rules proved costly.

“There are more penalties, and penalty-killing is difficult, there’s four feet added inside the offensive zone and they load the one side and put out that guy for the one-timer,” Orr said. “And the coach says block the shot. Many players are getting injured seriously from deflected pucks and so on.”
re:




On a Canucks related note, Sportsnet's Dan Murphy was on Rintoul's TEAM 1040's Evening Show and gave this tidbit that Hamhuis was not out for practice yesterday after the game against the Flyers i.e. "maintenance" day because of an apparent "hand" injury suffered via a shot block.

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Old
10-17-2013, 03:56 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamax View Post
On a Canucks related note, Sportsnet's Dan Murphy was on Rintoul's TEAM 1040's Evening Show and gave this tidbit that Hamhuis was not out for practice yesterday after the game against the Flyers i.e. "maintenance" day because of an apparent "hand" injury suffered via a shot block.
Hamhuis didn't block any shots with his hand in that game. Watched both the blocked shots just now on GCL, one of them just hit him because he was standing in front of Luongo and it was a muffin of a shot right into the shoulder (he didn't even seem to notice) and the other him in his skates but was also very weak.

He did however receive a big crosscheck in the lower back that he took forever to get up from.

(I'll be here to keep you honest since you won't do it yourself.)

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10-17-2013, 03:57 PM
  #4
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How about I post a video of Taylor Hall getting steped on and argue that we shouldn't take our warm up?

Because you're not producing any evidence that it leads to more injuries, you're just cherry picking some examples of injuries from shot blocking. Hockey is a dangerous game, and people will get injured. There is no evidence that suggests Torts' style leads to more injuries

Like how many times do you need to post that Campbell video before you realize it proves nothing?

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Old
10-17-2013, 03:58 PM
  #5
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Wow, youre really going for it, huh?

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Old
10-17-2013, 08:34 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamax View Post
On a Canucks related note, Sportsnet's Dan Murphy was on Rintoul's TEAM 1040's Evening Show and gave this tidbit that Hamhuis was not out for practice yesterday after the game against the Flyers i.e. "maintenance" day because of an apparent "hand" injury suffered via a shot block.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Hamhuis didn't block any shots with his hand in that game. Watched both the blocked shots just now on GCL, one of them just hit him because he was standing in front of Luongo and it was a muffin of a shot right into the shoulder (he didn't even seem to notice) and the other him in his skates but was also very weak.

He did however receive a big crosscheck in the lower back that he took forever to get up from.

(I'll be here to keep you honest since you won't do it yourself.)
Look, Tiranis, as someone in your position as a 'Moderator' on hfboards, I think you should be very careful before you make accusations of anyone here being intellectually dishonest.

Read what I wrote. I was re-iterating what I heard Sportsnet's Dan Murphy opined on why he believed Hamhuis had a "maintenance" day.

The "evidence" for Dan Murphy's comments re: Hamhuis' injury can be found in this link:

http://www.teamradio.ca/podcast/1040...16_Hour1_~.mp3

Fast forward to ~16 minutes into the podcast. When I have the time, I will provide a transcript.


Last edited by Betamax*: 10-17-2013 at 08:42 PM. Reason: first sentence.
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Old
10-17-2013, 09:35 PM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Lph View Post
How about I post a video of Taylor Hall getting steped on and argue that we shouldn't take our warm up?

Because you're not producing any evidence that it leads to more injuries, you're just cherry picking some examples of injuries from shot blocking. Hockey is a dangerous game, and people will get injured. There is no evidence that suggests Torts' style leads to more injuries

Like how many times do you need to post that Campbell video before you realize it proves nothing?
Watch the games.

Like, for example, the game tonight between the Sabres and Canucks. When Garrison shot the one-timer on the point, the Sabres' McCormick went down half a knee and got a piece of the shot (but I still think it may reached the net making it in theory a more difficult save to make for Miller) and he was noticably sruggle-ling for the rest of the shift. Effectively creating a 5 on 3 situation as he was maybe a bit more useful than a human pylon for the rest of the shift and the Canucks were put in a more advantageous situation because of his "shot block."

It probably happens more than a few times in most games where a shot block creates an in-game "injury" where the player hit by the puck has his performance negatively affected which may cause them to miss regular shifts or leave the game.

Even though a "Stats Guy" like Mr. Charron may believe that an injury should only be classified when it means "man games lost" as per his study.

But if he doesn't miss a game, it's not an injury. I don't buy that at all.

In game injuries which negatively affects an athlete's performance like it did for McCormick tonight should factor into this discussion when it comes to determining the pro/cons of when to actively looking to make a shot block as a strategy.

Now as I said, "shot blocking" should be discretionary and there are times like I believe when it was a defenseman, Stanton sprawled out in the crease to make the "save" on an in close shot ... that is a good risk/reward shot blocking attempt.

Getting in front of a one-timer from a guy that can shoot over 100 MPH, not so much, IMO.

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Old
10-17-2013, 09:40 PM
  #8
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how many shots have we blocked this year compared to last year after the same number of games?

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10-17-2013, 10:14 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamax View Post
Watch the games.

Like, for example, the game tonight between the Sabres and Canucks. When Garrison shot the one-timer on the point, the Sabres' McCormick went down half a knee and got a piece of the shot (but I still think it may reached the net making it in theory a more difficult save to make for Miller) and he was noticably sruggle-ling for the rest of the shift. Effectively creating a 5 on 3 situation as he was maybe a bit more useful than a human pylon for the rest of the shift and the Canucks were put in a more advantageous situation because of his "shot block."

It probably happens more than a few times in most games where a shot block creates an in-game "injury" where the player hit by the puck has his performance negatively affected which may cause them to miss regular shifts or leave the game.

Even though a "Stats Guy" like Mr. Charron may believe that an injury should only be classified when it means "man games lost" as per his study.

But if he doesn't miss a game, it's not an injury. I don't buy that at all.

In game injuries which negatively affects an athlete's performance like it did for McCormick tonight should factor into this discussion when it comes to determining the pro/cons of when to actively looking to make a shot block as a strategy.

Now as I said, "shot blocking" should be discretionary and there are times like I believe when it was a defenseman, Stanton sprawled out in the crease to make the "save" on an in close shot ... that is a good risk/reward shot blocking attempt.

Getting in front of a one-timer from a guy that can shoot over 100 MPH, not so much, IMO.
More than a little confused here.

What exactly are you advocating?

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Old
10-17-2013, 10:15 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
More than a little confused here.

What exactly are you advocating?
Nothing, he's just rambling

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Old
10-17-2013, 10:27 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamax View Post
References to Previous Links that had discussion on the merits and demerits of Shot blocking:

The Armchair Coaching Thread - Retorting The Torts!!!

The Armchair Coaching Thread [MOD WARNING in OP]

I felt it would be better to separate the "Shot Blocking" discussion that grew from the The two Armchair Coaching Threads to not have it be a dominating topic when those threads would probably be best served to discuss issues when it comes to forward lines, defense pairings and who should start in net etc..

A couple of stats based articles on shot blocking where submitted for evaluation:

The Whos and Hows of 2013 5v5 Shotblocking - by Tyler Dellow - September 22, 2013

A POINT ABOUT TORTORELLA AND SHOT BLOCKING - Cam Charron - October 08 2013 12:53PM

As I stated in those thread, I wasn't convinced by the way Cam Charron approached his Coach Torts' and Shot Blocking study and as I said in those thread, I planned on providing mu reasons in greater detail ... and I will ... when there's a longer break between games involving the Canucks.

But I think this thread, which I think could be a useful tool to track how many "injuries" are incurred by Canucks Players during the season. I will endeavor to make a point to update every incident I know of where a shot block has caused injury -- even if the player doesn't "miss" a man-game.
You have yet to provide a single cogent argument about this, ostensibly because you don't have enough time between games. And yet you have time to repeatedly spam a bunch of pointless Youtube links and accumulate anecdotal (meaningless) evidence.

Are you planning to post shot-blocking injuries from every player in the league? Compare it to the number of perceived injuries last year (even if they didn't lose man games?). Do you have any evidence the Canucks will block more shots/more dangerous shots than previous years?

This all seems like just some vague, wishy-washy concern based on not a whole heck of a lot. It's all just hot air.

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10-17-2013, 10:30 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamax View Post
Watch the games.

Like, for example, the game tonight between the Sabres and Canucks. When Garrison shot the one-timer on the point, the Sabres' McCormick went down half a knee and got a piece of the shot (but I still think it may reached the net making it in theory a more difficult save to make for Miller) and he was noticably sruggle-ling for the rest of the shift. Effectively creating a 5 on 3 situation as he was maybe a bit more useful than a human pylon for the rest of the shift and the Canucks were put in a more advantageous situation because of his "shot block."

It probably happens more than a few times in most games where a shot block creates an in-game "injury" where the player hit by the puck has his performance negatively affected which may cause them to miss regular shifts or leave the game.

Even though a "Stats Guy" like Mr. Charron may believe that an injury should only be classified when it means "man games lost" as per his study.

But if he doesn't miss a game, it's not an injury. I don't buy that at all.

In game injuries which negatively affects an athlete's performance like it did for McCormick tonight should factor into this discussion when it comes to determining the pro/cons of when to actively looking to make a shot block as a strategy.

Now as I said, "shot blocking" should be discretionary and there are times like I believe when it was a defenseman, Stanton sprawled out in the crease to make the "save" on an in close shot ... that is a good risk/reward shot blocking attempt.

Getting in front of a one-timer from a guy that can shoot over 100 MPH, not so much, IMO.
Is there a point buried somewhere in here that pertains to Tortorella coaching the Canucks, or is this just a general sentiment that players can get hurt blocking pucks and it may not have much utility to lay down in front of a 100mph slapshot?

Because if it's the latter, I doubt you'll find a ton of disagreement that there's much need to lay down in front of a slapshot from the point, but you also won't find many teams in the league that wouldn't encourage a player to if he was already in the shooting lane. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a player in a shooting lane would be just as likely (or more likely) to get trying to get out of the way of a shot; in theory a player blocking a shot is at least doing so in a way that reduces the likelihood of injury (protecting the inside of the foot, etc.)

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10-17-2013, 10:32 PM
  #13
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So what's your point?

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10-17-2013, 10:34 PM
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Watch the games.
make a point

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10-17-2013, 10:44 PM
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His point is that shot blocking is unequivocally bad, leading to injuries and being ineffective in actual gameplay. The same narrative he's been spouting the entire time.

Now whether that point is backed up reasonably is a different matter.

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10-17-2013, 10:51 PM
  #16
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His point is that shot blocking is unequivocally bad, leading to injuries and being ineffective in actual gameplay. The same narrative he's been spouting the entire time.

Now whether that point is backed up reasonably is a different matter.
Ya it's not.

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10-18-2013, 12:10 AM
  #17
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10-18-2013, 12:41 AM
  #18
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how many shots have we blocked this year compared to last year after the same number of games?
Canucks averages 5.7 blocked-shots/game last year.

This year they are averaging 9.5 so far.

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10-18-2013, 12:41 AM
  #19
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Look, Tiranis, as someone in your position as a 'Moderator' on hfboards, I think you should be very careful before you make accusations of anyone here being intellectually dishonest.


No offense to any mods but I don't think that "HFBoards mod" really stacks up against judges, or electoral officials, or any other actual real life position where someone potentially wields so much power that it's best for optics if they don't express their own personal views.

By the way, for all the hullabaloo about this topic how many shot blocks have the Sedins combined for so far this season and how does that stack up against their end of season totals the last few years?

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10-18-2013, 12:46 AM
  #20
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how many shots have we blocked this year compared to last year after the same number of games?
After 8 games...

Last Year: 101
This Year: 122

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10-18-2013, 12:52 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Canucks averages 5.7 blocked-shots/game last year.

This year they are averaging 9.5 so far.
They actually averaged 11.8 blocked shots/game last year (566 total/48 games) and 15.3/game this year

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10-18-2013, 01:54 AM
  #22
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They actually averaged 11.8 blocked shots/game last year (566 total/48 games) and 15.3/game this year
?

Hrm... maybe I was looking at just road games?

Yup... just road (whoops!).

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10-18-2013, 08:52 AM
  #23
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Worth mentioning probably that the Canucks blocked 35 of those shots in the two games against the Sharks -- 22 in game 1, when the team clearly didn't look like it knew the new system very well.

The Canucks also blocked the least number of forward shots in the league last year and were top 5 in defenseman shots blocked. If that's the trend we see develop this year, even a few more shot blocks for the team should level out in terms of injury concerns -- and also be a marked improvement on the quality of shots being blocked.

I don't see any major concerns at this point.

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Old
10-18-2013, 09:01 AM
  #24
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I wonder if Tortorella is happy about the fact that Henrik Sedin has 0 shot blocks this year. He did say he expects the Sedins to block shots.

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10-18-2013, 09:04 AM
  #25
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***gets popcorn***

(again)

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