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Roster Talk '13 U.S.A.

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Old
12-16-2012, 02:01 AM
  #951
SimplySensational
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Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
His feet way off the ground, hands up around the head, plus his head gets smashed into the glass and there's no way to prevent that with Noesen hitting him like that. In my world that's not a ten game suspension but in Dave Branch's it absolutely is. I just hate the idea that he got suspended to somehow sabotage the Americans' World Junior chances because it simply couldn't be further from the truth. If that's Mark Scheifele throwing that hit, ten games for sure, Branch doesn't give a **** where you're from, remember Monahan already has had a ten gamer this year. And the Huberdeau thing, four games seems like a pretty good maximum punishment, you can't punish a guy 10-15 games when there was no intent, he didn't punch or slash the ref, the ref fell in a situation that happens all the time (players trying to get at one another with the linesemen in between). Give him four because the linesman got hurt and Huberdeau was too aggressive but there's got to be a certain amount of maliciousness for ten (such as leaving your feet and ramming a guy's head into the glass). Anyways I've made my case so I'm done, it's just the conspiracy theory that bothering me and is from people who clearly don't understand the OHL punishment system, it's as strict as I've seen. Stefan Noesen is not a loss that I don't think you guys can overcome, he's a solid player but I don't expect he'd be a star at the tournament.

And just and FYI, Tyler Hore, still out with a concussion. Probably sitting out games just to set up Noesen though, he is Canadian after all and apparently we need every advantage we can get.
He actually hit his head on the ice, which is his own fault.

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12-16-2012, 02:02 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by SimplySensational View Post
He actually hit his head on the ice, which is his own fault.
You must be joking with the his own fault thing.

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12-16-2012, 02:09 AM
  #953
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You must be joking with the his own fault thing.
Why would I be?

Charging has turned into a rule against hard hits. Might as well just rename it excessive checking.

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12-16-2012, 02:18 AM
  #954
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Originally Posted by SimplySensational View Post
Why would I be?

Charging has turned into a rule against hard hits. Might as well just rename it excessive checking.
Because the idea that a player, who is illegally checked, is responsible for his own injury is outright ridiculous.

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12-16-2012, 02:50 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by SimplySensational View Post
Why would I be?

Charging has turned into a rule against hard hits. Might as well just rename it excessive checking.
Really that is all it ever has been an illegal excessive dangerous check. This is absolutely a charge and a dirty hit. I just question the timing and find it suspect. Not because they are sabotaging the US with intent but because they don't care. What I am getting at is they will let off players from the home nation because they do care. This isn't the conspiracy theory in the sense that the CHL and Hockey Canada has been waiting around and is running scared. What it is for me is shady, I just very much doubt even with lack of intent to harm the USA that they should be allowed to change the rules whenever they feel.

Now just for an idea here is how other North American Leagues look at this.

How the NHL does it. http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26328

Quote:
Rule 40 - Physical Abuse of Officials

40.1 Game Misconduct - Any player who deliberately applies physical force in any manner against an official, in any manner attempts to injure an official, physically demeans, or deliberately applies physical force to an official solely for the purpose of getting free of such an official during or immediately following an altercation shall receive a game misconduct penalty. In addition, the following (40.2, 40.3, 40.4) disciplinary penalties shall apply.

40.2 Automatic Suspension – Category I - Any player who deliberately strikes an official and causes injury or who deliberately applies physical force in any manner against an official with intent to injure, or who in any manner attempts to injure an official shall be automatically suspended for not less than twenty (20) games. (For the purpose of the rule, “intent to injure” shall mean any physical force which a player or goalkeeper knew or should have known could reasonably be expected to cause injury.)

40.3 Automatic Suspension – Category II - Any player who deliberately applies physical force to an official in any manner (excluding actions as set out in Category I), which physical force is applied without intent to injure, or who spits on an official,shall be automatically suspended for not less than ten (10) games.

40.4 Automatic Suspension – Category III - Any player who, by his actions, physically demeans an official or physically threatens an official by (but not limited to) throwing a stick or any other piece of equipment or object at or in the general direction of an official, shooting the puck at or in the general direction of an official, spitting at or in the general direction of an official, or who deliberately applies physical force to an official solely for the purpose of getting free of such an official during or immediately following an altercation shall be suspended for not less than three (3) games.
The CHL (Central Hockey League) http://centralhockeyleague.com.ismme...HLRuleBook.pdf

Quote:
Rule 40 – Physical Abuse of Officials
40.1 Game Misconduct - Any player who deliberately applies physical force in any manner against an official, in any manner attempts to injure an official, physically demeans, or deliberately applies physical force to an official solely for the purpose of getting free of such an official during or immediately following an altercation shall receive a game misconduct penalty. In addition, the following (40.2, 40.3, 40.4) disciplinary penalties shall apply.
40.2 Automatic Suspension - Category I - Any player who deliberately strikes an official and causes injury or who deliberately applies physical force in any manner against an official with intent to injure, or who in any manner attempts to injure an official shall be automatically suspended for not less than fourteen (14) games. (For the purpose of the rule, “intent to injure” shall mean any physical force which a player knew or should have known could reasonably be expected to cause injury.)
40.3 Automatic Suspension - Category II - Any player who deliberately applies physical force to an official in any manner (excluding actions as set out in Category I), which physical force is applied without intent to injure, or who spits on an official, shall be automatically suspended for not less than six (6) games.
40.4 Automatic Suspension - Category III - Any player who, by his actions, physically demeans an official or physically threatens an official by (but not limited to) throwing a stick or any other piece of equipment or object at or in the general direction of an official, shooting the puck at or in the general direction of an official, spitting at or in the general direction of an official, or who deliberately applies physical force to an official solely for the purpose of getting free of such an official during or immediately following an altercation shall be suspended for not less than two (2) games.
Now am I really to believe the CHL has vastly different rules? Sure it says contact president but in their case doing it intentionally is a one year suspension. So one would think this sliding scale is tougher than four games. He is clearly a Category II violator (as soon as that official is hurt) and really while rare you could also ding him with category III. Either way you are looking by the smallest of systems at at least six games which guess what takes his suspension into a scary area for Canada as it would be December 29th. I think it is a shame but be honest here what about this says four games? You can get him off 15 or 20 but he is a repeat offender in that he has other suspension discipline in his past, he should be looking at the same ten maybe 8 if you are being really nice. Please argue this and make it make sense?

The President of Hockey Canada or various CHL leagues holds the keys to ruling on big players and they dropped the ball. By doing so they have opened the door and not just to clumsy conspiracy theories but serious questions. How can they hammer one guy and not the other? At least Huberdeau could say he had been to a WJC, they have taken that away from Noesen and his dream entirely and I think it stinks. Either subject your own to this or Hockey USA should rightly call them out on it and bring pressure for answers. Are any of you seriously going to tell me this makes sense beyond he is important to team Canada?

Suspend them both or do the same by helping each. This won't determine whether or not team USA wins probably, but it just doesn't look right and to argue the other way when every evidence say intentional or not injuring an official is a very big deal is selling this short. They have protected their own, that is the only way I can see that and it disappoints me but does not surprise me.

I just want USA Hockey to hold them accountable here. The IIHF should really have their own system anyway, but this should be called out. They need to do it, you bet Canada would be hot and bothered if we were letting Hockey East shaft someone that was Canadian, while citing but the CCHA just feels differently about this violations so our guy is good to go even though everything we know about how that incident is treated is usually the opposite?


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Old
12-16-2012, 03:00 AM
  #956
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Please remove your tin foil hat. If the OHL, Team Canada and the IIHF were conspiring, I doubt Noesen would be a target. Galchenyuk or Gibson would be an actual huge blow and the big, bad OHL haven't attempted to suspend them.

You do realize that the OHL has made any headshot a pretty standard 10 game suspension? There is nothing special or unique about this incident.

That being said, I do not agree with the IIHF upholding this suspension and denying Noesen the once in a lifetime opportunity to represent his country. He didn't Bertuzzi anyone. Direct your anger at them.

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12-16-2012, 03:37 AM
  #957
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40.4 Automatic Suspension Category III - Any player who, by his actions, physically demeans an official or physically threatens an official by (but not limited to) throwing a stick or any other piece of equipment or object at or in the general direction of an official, shooting the puck at or in the general direction of an official, spitting at or in the general direction of an official, or who deliberately applies physical force to an official solely for the purpose of getting free of such an official during or immediately following an altercation shall be suspended for not less than three (3) games.
And we have a winner! Category 3 for 3 games. They gave him 4. Case closed.

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12-16-2012, 03:48 AM
  #958
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And we have a winner! Category 3 for 3 games. They gave him 4. Case closed.
Nope as soon as he got hurt whether intentional or not he is a Category 2 offender. He didn't intend to hurt him but when he did that is what happened. Then he continues on to fight, I am sorry I see no league that would give him anywhere near four games, I don't buy it. I likewise don't buy if he did this on January 15th this year he wouldn't get hammered. He leans initiating contact into the official putting his hands on his chest, this isn't a guy holding onto his arm or trying to seperate him, sorry I see no way he doesn't apply to the higher category. Like I said though really my only point is this should be leverage when Team USA attempts an appeal.


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12-16-2012, 04:04 AM
  #959
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Nope as soon as he got hurt whether intentional or not he is a Category 2 offender. He didn't intend to hurt him but when he did that is what happened. Then he continues on to fight, I am sorry I see no league that would give him anywhere near four games, I don't buy it. I likewise don't buy if he did this on January 15th this year he wouldn't get hammered. He leans initiating contact into the official putting his hands on his chest, this isn't a guy holding onto his arm or trying to seperate him, sorry I see no way he doesn't apply to the higher category. Like I said though really my only point is this should be leverage when Team USA attempts an appeal.
No...
My take on those:
Type 1: intent to injure
Type 2: intentional use of force (but not to injure)
Type 3: unintentional use of force due to referee/lineman joining in battle

It's not like stick to the head where injury changes type... it's intent that changes the type

PS although I live in Canada my tied for fave player is Trouba so I'm not completely but slightly bipartisan

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12-16-2012, 04:06 AM
  #960
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In any event surprised how low a lot of people have McCabe, I think he would be a great partner with Jones. I am always really impressed when I see him play with Wisconsin. A couple really solid big puck movers that can shut down first lines. I think they would play very well together.

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12-16-2012, 04:11 AM
  #961
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Nope as soon as he got hurt whether intentional or not he is a Category 2 offender. He didn't intend to hurt him but when he did that is what happened. Then he continues on to fight, I am sorry I see no league that would give him anywhere near four games, I don't buy it. I likewise don't buy if he did this on January 15th this year he wouldn't get hammered. He leans initiating contact into the official putting his hands on his chest, this isn't a guy holding onto his arm or trying to seperate him, sorry I see no way he doesn't apply to the higher category. Like I said though really my only point is this should be leverage when Team USA attempts an appeal.
From those rules you posted...

40.4 Automatic Suspension - Category III - Any player who deliberately applies physical force to an official solely for the purpose of getting free of such an official during or immediately following an altercation shall be suspended for not less than two (2) games.

That's pretty clear. I don't see anything in the wording of category II that indicates that if the official is injured resulting from the actions that the suspension will be greater.

Intent to injure wording in category two has nothing to do with an accidental injury. Their was no intent to injure. Case closed.

Please remove your tin foil hat. Where were you last week when the suspension was levied. Don't try to rewrite history now that you find an OHL ruling unsavory. As I said before, direct your wrath at the IIHF for upholding Noesen's suspension. Don't lobby for an extended Huberdeau suspension one week after the fact. That's just sad of you.

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12-16-2012, 04:12 AM
  #962
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Nope as soon as he got hurt whether intentional or not he is a Category 2 offender. He didn't intend to hurt him but when he did that is what happened. Then he continues on to fight, I am sorry I see no league that would give him anywhere near four games, I don't buy it. I likewise don't buy if he did this on January 15th this year he wouldn't get hammered. He leans initiating contact into the official putting his hands on his chest, this isn't a guy holding onto his arm or trying to seperate him, sorry I see no way he doesn't apply to the higher category. Like I said though really my only point is this should be leverage when Team USA attempts an appeal.
Wow, the text I bolded describes the situation exactly and yet you still don't see it and hang on to some ridiculous conspiracy theory. No getting through to you so I'm moving on. Best of luck with the appeal, though. I do hope it's successful and that he can play. The US can overcome the loss of a player but it won't be so easy for Noesen who would likely miss out on a dream of playing in this tourney.

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12-16-2012, 04:20 AM
  #963
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He applied the force to get into the altercation guys, not to continue it or during one but to start one. He is face up with the official. I don't need to derail the tread anymore. Just pointing out this exact incident can be used as leverage by USA Hockey. It is a shame suspension and one I don't believe would have come anywhere near that small given the two torn ligaments and a torn muscle the official suffered. That third one is for ongoing altercations, this situation is diffused. He then messes around with him facing up knowing it and winds up with his hands on his chest as this guy buckles backwards. What his response to falling on top of him and this contact, he gets up and goes right after the kid anyway. It is what it is but that is intentional force to get something and level 2 for me and given the level of injury suffered how does that not ramp up the penalty considerably.

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12-16-2012, 05:03 AM
  #964
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The incidents are entirely apples and oranges, literally not a single thing is the same. The thing that really bites Noesen is a precedence had been set, ten games you go after somebody's head. 17 year old, concussion from Noesen charging him, he doesn't get ten games the whole league is in uproar because pretty much every team by now has had somebody get ten games for a head shot of some kind. If a precedence had been set and every time you wrestle free from a linesmen and they fall, that's ten games then you would have a Huberdeau argument but there is no precedence. The QMJHL makes a judgement call on the maliciousness of his actions and you can't claim they made that call with regards to the World Juniors without any actual proof. You give me other suspensions from the QMJHL that show Huberdeau got off light, I'll listen. The OHL can't not give Noesen a ten gamer for that hit as far as I'm concerned because it goes what they've doing for the last couple years. Now if the IIHF should honor these suspensions is another question, personally I'd let him play and serve it out when he gets back to the OHL but I don't make the rules.

And if anyone would like to put this argument to rest I'd be down. Be upset about the IIHF's decision all you want and talk about the appeal. We've heard the arguments for both sides about the accused wrongdoings of the OHL and QMJHL.


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12-16-2012, 05:10 AM
  #965
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Trocheck finishing strong in Saginaw before camp, with 2+2 game last night. And now is tied for 5th in OHL scoring.

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12-16-2012, 05:13 AM
  #966
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Trocheck finishing strong in Saginaw before camp, with 2+2 game last night. And now is tied for 5th in OHL scoring.
Kid is a stud, love the way he plays. Should have been on the team last year IMO.

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12-16-2012, 05:33 AM
  #967
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He applied the force to get into the altercation ...
No he didn't. That's the thing. Because there was no intent, the ref's injury becomes a magnification of the Category 3 suspension: going from 2 games to 4.

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12-16-2012, 09:36 AM
  #968
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So....uhm....is this US team any good?

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12-16-2012, 09:47 AM
  #969
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In any event surprised how low a lot of people have McCabe, I think he would be a great partner with Jones. I am always really impressed when I see him play with Wisconsin. A couple really solid big puck movers that can shut down first lines. I think they would play very well together.
Everyone I know who's seen him play (I haven't, sadly) has pretty much said this verbatim, top pairing projections and all. I hope he has a good camp.

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12-16-2012, 10:09 AM
  #970
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Everyone I know who's seen him play (I haven't, sadly) has pretty much said this verbatim, top pairing projections and all. I hope he has a good camp.
I am very high on him, really wanted the Wings to draft him last year. With the B1G Network in the midwest and also living in the Milwaukee area you get quite a few Badgers games. There were a lot of times in his draft year I thought he was the best player on the ice and we all know who one of his teammates was at Wisconsin. I still like a lot of the things I see when I watch him play. No complaints as the Wings wound up with Frk, but McCabe is the next big Badger blueliner, he is a heck of a player. I will admit I don't know as much about Shayne Gostisbehere, very encouraged with what I do know about him.

But I would go with

McCabe - Jones
Gostisbehere - Truba
Skjei/Sieloff (One gets cut at camp) - Murphy
Grzelcyk (I do think he is the seventh d-man)

I guess we will see what they go with I like the top two pairings they have a play whatever matchup you want feel. I like keeping all the righties on the right though, stinks for Murphy but will help a bunch with balancing pairings.

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12-16-2012, 11:27 AM
  #971
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Galchenyuk is on fire going into the WJC

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12-16-2012, 12:34 PM
  #972
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So....uhm....is this US team any good?
Well, we've got the 2nd and 6th highest scorers in the OHL, a defenseman that's 6th in the WHL in points among defensemen(only rookie in the top 20), two defensemen that are top 10 in NCAA scoring among defensemen, a top 5 OHL goalie, and the second highest PPG scorer in the NCAA.

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12-16-2012, 12:49 PM
  #973
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I like US team. It has depth, talent, grit, lots of good skaters.

Don't see last year happening again, this team is in the mix imo.

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12-16-2012, 01:01 PM
  #974
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What time does camp start and is FastHockey streaming these practices?

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12-16-2012, 01:12 PM
  #975
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Who are you guys expecting to start in goal?

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