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The Lockout Thread: Good Things Come To Those Who Wait

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Old
09-14-2012, 10:59 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by HaroldVonKimblestein View Post
RIDICULOUSLY cheap as compared to what?
Going to a hockey game here in Canada in a city with only one pro sports team.

The 'Canes only come here once every two years (hopefully this will change under new realignment ) so I normally try to get lower bowl seats, and these can *EASILY* eclipse $300. Now factor in $10-$15 for parking (tho, you can take the C-Train which is only $2.75 and stops right beside the Saddledome), $8 beer (This actually isn't so bad cause of our famous and world renowned heroin beer ), $7 cheeseburgers ($12 for a double), $10 nachos and god knows what on a hat//jersey//t-shirt etc and you're looking at a $400-$500 nite, and that's just me, nevermind if you were, say, a family of four.

The cheapest seats you can get here (nosebleeds or the Sportchek Fan Zone) start at $60. I do a fair amount of travelling, and there are numerous arenas in the States were I've sat in the lower bowl for less than a balcony seat would cost here in Canada (I've been to all seven arenas here in Canada)

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09-14-2012, 11:59 AM
  #402
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I would venture to say that price points like that are terrible for the sport in general. One should not have to be wealthy to see the game in person.

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09-14-2012, 12:23 PM
  #403
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People still eat at the arena? Not only does the food usually suck, but it's that expensive everywhere.

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09-14-2012, 12:24 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Psyduck View Post
That helped tremendously. Thank you.

If that is the situation I don't see how anyone in their right mind would take the players' side. Although I've heard talks of salary reductions which in my mind sound like a breach of contract. That is disturbing
The most common view of the outcome of the 2004 lockout is that the players gave up huge concessions- they essentially limited their earning potential so that there could be hockey (of course, only the top 1% were actually affected by this, but let's not dwell on that).

So the view is that the current CBA was negotiated at the cost of an entire season, and the players gave up a lot. And now the owners are asking for more, and threatening another lost season?!? We already lost one! Now we need more??

It's exasperation at the perception of the owners as greedy ******** who just want more and more. The NHLPA has improved by leaps and bounds with proposing an alternative solution to the teams in the red (instead of denying there was a problem in 2004).

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09-14-2012, 01:17 PM
  #405
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Yah I generally scoff at the notion the players "lost" the last one. Can't think of a single player screwed over by the deal, thus the owners general discontent. Players got significantly early ufa and automatic base pay for NHL pay, both truly big concessions that play no small role in player cost escalation.

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09-14-2012, 01:35 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
Players got significantly early ufa and automatic base pay for NHL pay, both truly big concessions that play no small role in player cost escalation.
What is "automatic base pay for NHL pay?"

They also took an across the board pay cut, no?

In the end, it's the owners doing this to themselves, not anything to do with the players.

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09-14-2012, 01:47 PM
  #407
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Base level pay for NHLers went from 300K per season to 450K per season after the lockout, with an agreement that after two years it would be 525K per season as league minimum. Basically they went from the worst league minimum of the big 4 sports to the best overnight.

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09-14-2012, 01:59 PM
  #408
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That was a big deal. That and ufa at 26-27? Huge concessions. The pay cut was immediately chipped away at with new contracts. Someone tweeted what average salary was before the lockout vs after, it all went the players way. The cap didn't hurt anyone but the very best players being limited. Guys like seguin and skinner making ridiculous bank compared to actual accomplishments. The players are doing well, they know it, they want to give up as little of it as possible and fehr is gonna go as long as he can. The league has a right to adjust the cap, and the players want every adjustment to be painful so it doesn't happen often.

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09-14-2012, 05:37 PM
  #409
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CapGeek ‏@capgeek

Teams have handed out $104.7M in contracts so far today -- the eve of an #NHL lockout.
Those poor owners...

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09-15-2012, 12:38 AM
  #410
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we finally sign a star winger and there goes an lockout. sadly.

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09-15-2012, 12:57 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Those poor owners...
You know that teams have to try to be competitive, right? Or else they lose fans and income, unless you're the leafs. Not to mention that there's a continuously raising cap floor, meaning owners HAVE to spend money.

You also know that if owners worked together to keep player costs down as I've seen some suggest, that would be collusion and a violation of the CBA, not to mention probably illegal, right? The way owners get together to change a system that pretty much locks them into spending recklessly is changing the CBA. Which, in case you haven't noticed, is exactly what they're trying to do.

The players are NOT on the side of the fans. Stop white knighting them.

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09-15-2012, 08:55 AM
  #412
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The players are NOT on the side of the fans. Stop white knighting them.
This. They can spew all they want on twitter about how they want to play and they feel our frustration, but it's all BS. In reality they don't give a **** about the fans. All they care about is making as much money as they possibly can. Who cares that those fans are the ones working 40-50 hours or more a week and putting their hard earned money into the game they play and paying their salary/revenue.

Forget about the workerbees who NEED a season in order to pay their bills. These millionaires can afford to without pay and still beable to pay their bills. Is it ideal, no, but they sure as hell won't suffer. The workerbees will be the ones suffering and figuring out how their bills will get paid.

Frankly i'm sick of seeing millionaires argue over money.

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09-15-2012, 09:38 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Those poor owners...
Is there a reason why owners are being portrayed as hypocrites for spending money? It's odd. I'm pretty sure owners have proposed a $58M cap, not a $0 cap.

No owners ever claimed to be poor, they just claimed to be losing money. There is a difference.

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09-15-2012, 10:08 AM
  #414
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Originally Posted by cptjeff View Post
The players are NOT on the side of the fans. Stop white knighting them.
If you hadn't noticed, I've been blaming both sides. Just found it funny that the owners cry poor, but have no problem overpaying for players. And yes, a lot of the deals done yesterday were overpayments. So was the one done today.

The owners are hypocrites for claiming the players get paid too much, then promptly throw out contracts that reenforce their complaint. The players are hypocrites for claiming they don't believe the owners are negotiating these contracts on good faith, then promptly signing as many as they've done recently. Stick to your guns, one way or the other.

Yes, the CBA needs to be changed if the majority of the owners are losing money. But considering that number has jumped anywhere from 18 to 7, depending on where you're looking, it sounds like there's no telling who's losing money and who's simply looking for more profit. Unless they're really obvious, like Phoenix.

I just have a hard time believing the Devils lost money last year after making it to the SCF. I know they had money troubles, but if they couldn't turn a profit making it to the SCF, maybe they shouldn't have given Kovalchuk his cap-circumventing contract, where the vast majority of his money is paid in the early years.

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09-15-2012, 10:51 AM
  #415
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The owners aren't paying too much until they exceed the salary range. That's the point of a cap.

The fundamental problem is that the salary range is tied to revenue. When overall revenue goes up, the owners are required to spend more on salaries. That's find if you're the Leafs or Rangers. Not so much if you're in the lower third of the league. As long as salaries are a percentage of revenue, the bottom-end teams are virtually guaranteed to struggle since their revenue increases will not likely exceed the league average. The only thing left to bicker about is how to solve that issue.

Edit: as for the Devils, they lose MORE money without Kovalchuk. Signing him sold thousands of jerseys, kept them relevant for national broadcasts and took their team to the Finals. Their financial issues are tied to arena debt, not salary issues, so the last thing they can afford is to reduce their competitiveness.

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09-15-2012, 02:37 PM
  #416
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While both sides have managed these negotiations horribly (not to mention the PR side of things), I just cannot understand the players positioning. Yes, I know this is a labor negotiation and I know that they feel that, yet again, they are the ones being asked to sacrifice. Yet the lack of understanding of the cold hard factual reality is astonishing. They have allowed Donald Fehr to lead them down a path where a work stoppage is nearly unavoidable. With all the rhetoric (from both sides), compromise will make the compromiser look foolish at best and idiotic at worst.

The players have offered some very interesting options - creative revenue sharing plans, maintaining the concept of the cap, "buying cap space" periodically, etc. But in the end, this is all about what piece of the pie each party gets. In the real world of business (yes, boys and girls, the NHL is a business) risk = reward. In the business of sports, the business risk is shouldered almost entirely by the owners....and don't give me that crap about players risking their bodies, blah, blah, blah....they get to play a kids sport for incredible amounts of money. Who among us wouldn't take 4th liners' money to do the same if we could? And in the end, the deal to be had is somewhere near the mythical 50/50 split range.

Yup, there's a revenue sharing component, some player safety issues, and minor tweaking of RFA/UFA/ELC timeframes and rules. But when they get the revenue split right, this deal gets done over a weekend.

But here's the frustrating piece in all of this. We are going to lose hockey games because one of these parties can't figure out the single central issue. That issue is that the owners will always have the winning hand in these negotiations. Once a lockout starts the players lose any crumbs of leverage that they might have had. The owners have proven that they are more than willing to toss out a season to get the financial deal that they want. Somebody please tell me how the players come out on top in this deal. They lose a year of their hockey playing careers. They devalue their standing as advertising pitchmen. They are equal participants in what will most likely be a stalling or even a decline in the growth of the sport (the only real way that real salaries for all players continue to escalate).

It doesn't matter whose side you're on. Who is the bigger jerk, Fehr or Bettman. Who has the fans support. In the end the owners can always hold out and will ultimately get something much closer to what they have offered and what they want. It is just the way that it is. The other larger set of losers in this deal are you and me....the fans. I just don't know how to express how disappointed I am that these billionaires and millionaires play with my loyalties and emotions. I want to be able to say, "If you collude to create lost hockey games, then I won't ever watch again". But I know I'd be fooling myself....I'm sure the vast majority of you all feel the same. It is next to impossible of conceiving of giving up the sport I have come to love so much.

So please remember NHLPA, life and labor negotiations are never fair. Suck it up Sidney, Alex, Bobby, and Eric....you're going to come out on the short end of this deal eventually. So please learn from the last time and make the best deal that you can sooner rather than later. Because this fan knows that, in the end, a lost season must be placed at the feet of the players....no matter how big of a turd Gary Bettman is. It's all about the Golden Rule....he who has the gold, makes the rules.

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09-15-2012, 03:04 PM
  #417
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So please remember NHLPA, life and labor negotiations are never fair. Suck it up Sidney, Alex, Bobby, and Eric....you're going to come out on the short end of this deal eventually. So please learn from the last time and make the best deal that you can sooner rather than later. Because this fan knows that, in the end, a lost season must be placed at the feet of the players....no matter how big of a turd Gary Bettman is. It's all about the Golden Rule....he who has the gold, makes the rules.
That's very contradictory. In order to get the best deal they can, the players have to hold out, at least for a little while. You don't accept the first deal that's thrown your way.

I understand the fans are upset that there's going to be another lockout, but too often I'm seeing "This is the player's fault, since they won't accept the deal on the table. They're going to lose anyway!". I'm sure the players realize they can't win this and that the owners will once again get a CBA that's composed mostly of their own ideas. That doesn't mean they shouldn't fight to get some say in this new CBA, so that it's not composed ENTIRELY off the owner's say.

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09-15-2012, 05:32 PM
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
That's very contradictory. In order to get the best deal they can, the players have to hold out, at least for a little while. You don't accept the first deal that's thrown your way.

I understand the fans are upset that there's going to be another lockout, but too often I'm seeing "This is the player's fault, since they won't accept the deal on the table. They're going to lose anyway!". I'm sure the players realize they can't win this and that the owners will once again get a CBA that's composed mostly of their own ideas. That doesn't mean they shouldn't fight to get some say in this new CBA, so that it's not composed ENTIRELY off the owner's say.
It's not the players' fault. It is nobody and everybody's fault. Fault is immaterial. It is all about recognizing the facts. The facts are the owners "only lose money". The players have so much more to lose and, sadly, have almost no leverage....especially after a lockout begins.

Why, you ask? Because the fans always come back, but Eric, Cam, and Tuomo can't get that year back nor can they unshoulder their responsibility in helping to cause a work stoppage.

To quote Gary Bettman, "We've got the world's greatest fans". Which of course he means dumb and dedicated...well maybe not dumb but certainly rabid.

The players are just in an untenable position and fail to realize it. Go ahead, hold out....please learn from history....the best deal they will get is the deal they negotiate prior to the lockout. It will never get better than the one they could have negotiated today. I'd bet a dollar to a donut hole that they will end up at or about 50/50 split on HRR....maybe 49% or maybe some scaled version moving from low 50's to high 40's assuming some % growth of overall HRR. But after today, all that happens is that they begin losing paychecks....sure the owners lose cash too, but remember the ultimate context....billionaires vs. millionaires. In the end the players get the same deal they could have gotten today....or perhaps worse.

BTW, the players have now had three deals "thrown" their way...and a concession is, by definition, moving closer to the position of whomever you are negotiating with. To say that the owners have given up nothing is a straw man argument. Again, all I'm saying is that Fehr and the NHLPA are assuming that they have significantly more power that they have actually ever had.

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09-15-2012, 06:52 PM
  #419
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I guess we'll agree to disagree then. Everyone knows the players aren't going to get their way completely. The fans know it, the owners know it, Fehr knows it and the players know it. However, that doesn't mean they couldn't get SOME issues to go their way, similar to the last CBA.

There are clearly still issues with the current offer from the owners. Obviously, not all the issues are going to be "fixed" to the player's liking when the new CBA is finally created. In all likelihood, the owner's HRR split is going to be the one used when it's all said and done.

But if it takes a lockout to "force" the players to accept that split, that gives the players the opportunity to "force" the owners to accept some of the other related issues. The players will "begrudgingly" accept the owner's split, but fight tooth and nail for the other, less important issues like ELC and length to UFA. Rather than continue another long, drawn out battle with the PA, the owners are more likely to accept (or tweak) those less important issues. Whereas if the players had gone your route and simply rolled over and died, they'd lose the HRR split and come off as weak when the other issues are debated.

And no, neither side has given concessions. A concession implies you're giving up something you have. The owners tried to pass it off as if the 14% paycut was a done deal and they "conceded" by moving to 8%. Wasn't so. Likewise, the players tried to pass off as if a payraise was a done deal and they "conceded" by accepting less of a payraise in the future. Neither side gave up anything they had, just things they may or may not get in the future.

Say you earned $10 a day. Then, for whatever reason, you were required to give another person seven dollars for every ten you earn. Then that person says to you, "Well, I'll accept five dollars instead, but you have to give up something as well since I made a concession". But they didn't "concede" anything. They simply made your paycut into less of a paycut...and then asked you to give something else up in addition to that. You went from making 10 dollars a day to making 5 dollars a day and they claim to have made a concession?

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09-15-2012, 10:37 PM
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I guess we'll agree to disagree then. Everyone knows the players aren't going to get their way completely. The fans know it, the owners know it, Fehr knows it and the players know it. However, that doesn't mean they couldn't get SOME issues to go their way, similar to the last CBA.

There are clearly still issues with the current offer from the owners. Obviously, not all the issues are going to be "fixed" to the player's liking when the new CBA is finally created. In all likelihood, the owner's HRR split is going to be the one used when it's all said and done.

But if it takes a lockout to "force" the players to accept that split, that gives the players the opportunity to "force" the owners to accept some of the other related issues. The players will "begrudgingly" accept the owner's split, but fight tooth and nail for the other, less important issues like ELC and length to UFA. Rather than continue another long, drawn out battle with the PA, the owners are more likely to accept (or tweak) those less important issues. Whereas if the players had gone your route and simply rolled over and died, they'd lose the HRR split and come off as weak when the other issues are debated.

And no, neither side has given concessions. A concession implies you're giving up something you have. The owners tried to pass it off as if the 14% paycut was a done deal and they "conceded" by moving to 8%. Wasn't so. Likewise, the players tried to pass off as if a payraise was a done deal and they "conceded" by accepting less of a payraise in the future. Neither side gave up anything they had, just things they may or may not get in the future.

Say you earned $10 a day. Then, for whatever reason, you were required to give another person seven dollars for every ten you earn. Then that person says to you, "Well, I'll accept five dollars instead, but you have to give up something as well since I made a concession". But they didn't "concede" anything. They simply made your paycut into less of a paycut...and then asked you to give something else up in addition to that. You went from making 10 dollars a day to making 5 dollars a day and they claim to have made a concession?
I'm not sure whether we're agreeing or disagreeing....what I do know is that in any real negotiation, a concession means that I recognize and move closer to my opponent's desired position and vice versa.

As I said, all of that is immaterial. The players are not going to be able to force anything that they wouldn't have been able to force this week....once they go to agreement on the revenue split. It is really the only issue. It get's solved and all the rest is window dressing. The players will get some things going their way on ELC/UFA/RFA, but they could have gotten that regardless. What they won't get is a revenue split that they want. The owners will get that.

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09-16-2012, 12:29 AM
  #421
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Having a very frustrating conversation on Twitter right now.

Friend says:

Quote:
Want to know who to blame for the lockout: Carolina, Florida, and Nashville all spent a ton of money they don't have then cried foul
Thoughts?

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09-16-2012, 02:05 AM
  #422
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Having a very frustrating conversation on Twitter right now.

Friend says:



Thoughts?
See your avatar.

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09-16-2012, 02:44 AM
  #423
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Having a very frustrating conversation on Twitter right now.

Friend says:



Thoughts?
You aren't going to make headway with someone who's just looking for a scapegoat.

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09-16-2012, 03:17 AM
  #424
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Having a very frustrating conversation on Twitter right now.

Friend says:



Thoughts?
What does that make all the teams (Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, New York etc) who have a ton of money, but can't ever seem to field a wining team?

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09-16-2012, 05:52 AM
  #425
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Yes, historically salary floor teams are the problem here... Tell your fried they are dumb a ****ing hell and move along

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