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Offseason Discussion VI: Well that got out of hand (UPDATED contract chart in Post 1)

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06-19-2012, 09:03 AM
  #26
Flat Stanley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I assume they would be a part of the trade in his scenario.
Correct. Clutterbuck and Setoguchi would be brought in to replace those 2. I like Dupuis and Kennedy and want to see them here, but if we want young wingers who are hitters and scorers. Those 2 would be a perfect fit. And I really don't w=know what else I would offer the Wild other than those 2. I posted a trade proposal in the Cluterbuck/Setoguchi thread on the trade boards,

I don't think they take Martin, he won't waive his NTC to go there as he already said it would be too much presure playing for his hometown.

I offered Dupuis, Kennedy, one of Strait/Bortuzzo and a 1st or 2nd round pick (if they take the 2nd they can have it without adding, but if they take the 1st, we want the 68th pick in the 3rd round)

Like I said though, that's only to bring Setoguchi and Clutterbuck to Pittsburgh and those are 2 players that Fletcher could be interested in from the Pens, I don't want us to trade them unless there's an upgrade which, IMO, Setguchi and Clutterbuck would be.

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06-19-2012, 09:05 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Rumor on the trade board that Cal Clutterbuck and Devin Setoguchi might be available, I think both would be a great fit for the Pens.

Kunitz-Crosby-Setoguchi
Tangradi-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Staal-Clutterbuck
Asham-Vitale-Adams

Tangradi gets the top 6 spot if he earns it out of camp, he would save us cap space instead of acquiring another top 6 winger. IMO, with that top 6, you don't need every winger to be great, we can afford to give Tangradi those minutes with Malkin and Neal and not lose a beat.
Looks good from a physicality standpoint, but if that's the bottom 6, then Duper is in the top 6 and Tangradi is the 13th forward. And neither of those are ideal. If we are getting Clutterbuck, I'd rather not re-sign Asham or ideally let Adams go and keep Duper and one of Cooke/Clutterbuck with Staal and the other on the 4th line.

Edit: nvm I see your above post.

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:09 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Correct. Clutterbuck and Setoguchi would be brought in to replace those 2. I like Dupuis and Kennedy and want to see them here, but if we want young wingers who are hitters and scorers. Those 2 would be a perfect fit. And I really don't w=know what else I would offer the Wild other than those 2. I posted a trade proposal in the Cluterbuck/Setoguchi thread on the trade boards,

I don't think they take Martin, he won't waive his NTC to go there as he already said it would be too much presure playing for his hometown.

I offered Dupuis, Kennedy, one of Strait/Bortuzzo and a 1st or 2nd round pick (if they take the 2nd they can have it without adding, but if they take the 1st, we want the 68th pick in the 3rd round)

Like I said though, that's only to bring Setoguchi and Clutterbuck to Pittsburgh and those are 2 players that Fletcher could be interested in from the Pens, I don't want us to trade them unless there's an upgrade which, IMO, Setguchi and Clutterbuck would be.
Ok, well I would be happy with a trade that brings Seto and Clutterbuck back without moving either Staal or Martin. I would just then try to trade Martin and use his cap to get that other LW.

I doubt they would want both TK and Dupuis coming back. If they need right wings, why are they trading two away? I dunno, just a thought. I would be happy to take that deal.

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06-19-2012, 09:22 AM
  #29
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Uh maybe other than the fact that Minnesota has some weird fixation with the Penguins, that proposal is pretty offensive.

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06-19-2012, 09:30 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Uh maybe other than the fact that Minnesota has some weird fixation with the Penguins, that proposal is pretty offensive.
I don't expect that to be a realistic offer, I'm saying that's what I offer for those 2. Meaning I'm not going to overpay with top prospects and 1st round picks.

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06-19-2012, 09:40 AM
  #31
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Please keep the "Staal for MN spare parts and prospects" (because that's all they have) comments to the Staal thread. Personally I'd be OK moving Martin and a pick for Seto and Clutterbuck but that's it. Any more than that and we're being reamed.

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06-19-2012, 10:08 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Please keep the "Staal for MN spare parts and prospects" (because that's all they have) comments to the Staal thread. Personally I'd be OK moving Martin and a pick for Seto and Clutterbuck but that's it. Any more than that and we're being reamed.
I'd probably add TK if we had to.

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06-19-2012, 10:12 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'd probably add TK if we had to.
ya if we could get seto and clutterbuck for that so would I

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06-19-2012, 10:14 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'd probably add TK if we had to.
Depends on the pick. If it's a 2nd rounder I don't think it would be necessary. If it's a later pick Kennedy could be added instead of said pick. Seto has lost some value the last couple years and Clutterbuck is a grinder (even though he's a very good one / useful one). Martin is worth more than either player so adding Kennedy (who is going to have more value than any draft pick made beyond the 2nd round) should do it.

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06-19-2012, 10:15 AM
  #35
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What are you guys realistically expecting for Martin? I think we could get a good player back, just don't know what kind of player.

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06-19-2012, 10:22 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
What are you guys realistically expecting for Martin? I think we could get a good player back, just don't know what kind of player.
See above. I think it's reasonable to assume we could get a guy like Setoguchi plus another asset like a mid-round pick maybe. Or if there's another roster player involved (which might have to happen given his salary) it could be someone like Clutterbuck, where we add a bit more into the deal.

I actually think (unlike the Staal proposals which suck and shall remain in the other thread. ) that Martin to MN for some combination of useful F assets, makes a lot more sense. You're not going to get their 1st round pick or that highly skilled F prospect everyone likes, for Martin but you could get other useful assets that make our team better.

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06-19-2012, 10:23 AM
  #37
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What to expect? Probably a little overpaid guy, too, or a mid draft pick. I say, Ryan Malone is a best case scenario. He´s overpaid, but less overpaid than Martin. Thing is, Tampa absolutely lacks defense. I would be OK with just knowing P.Martin is gone, I don´t care about return that much.

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06-19-2012, 10:25 AM
  #38
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You should care about the return because we can get a decent one for Martin. You don't just give away top 4 D, even if they had a bad year here / don't fit here.

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06-19-2012, 10:30 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Hunting View Post
What to expect? Probably a little overpaid guy, too, or a mid draft pick. I say, Ryan Malone is a best case scenario. He´s overpaid, but less overpaid than Martin. Thing is, Tampa absolutely lacks defense. I would be OK with just knowing P.Martin is gone, I don´t care about return that much.
If he goes for a draft pick, it won't be a mid one.

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06-19-2012, 10:34 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
See above. I think it's reasonable to assume we could get a guy like Setoguchi plus another asset like a mid-round pick maybe.......

You're not going to get their 1st round pick or that highly skilled F prospect everyone likes, for Martin but you could get other useful assets that make our team better.
What is worth more to next seasons Pens? A perennial 20+ goal scoring young RH shot winger who was drafted 8th overall back when, who could explode with our C's, or a 7th overall 18 year old....
Surely that 7th overall COULD be significantly better than Setoguchi, but he could also be worse, and in any case he isn't going to be better for quite some time.

Give me Setoguchi for Martin and I'll be doing carthwheels.
There's a big difference to saying that Martin has negative value and saying that Minnesota should give us Setoguchi, and then add to it.... after last seasons performances, we'd be super lucky if Martin brought Setoguchi.

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06-19-2012, 10:43 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Ideally we should target two wingers. One of them should be the third wheel banger type. The other can be whatever the hell we want imo, just as long as its an upgrade.
Or just move Staal into the top 6 and sign a FA for the 3rd C. Then we only need to find 1 winger.

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06-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
See above. I think it's reasonable to assume we could get a guy like Setoguchi plus another asset like a mid-round pick maybe. Or if there's another roster player involved (which might have to happen given his salary) it could be someone like Clutterbuck, where we add a bit more into the deal.

I actually think (unlike the Staal proposals which suck and shall remain in the other thread. ) that Martin to MN for some combination of useful F assets, makes a lot more sense. You're not going to get their 1st round pick or that highly skilled F prospect everyone likes, for Martin but you could get other useful assets that make our team better.
Martin is worth a late 1st. Especially to a team in dire need of one, and the others available meaning top 4 PMD's cost way more than that.


Edit: Say for Tampa's 1st VIA Detroit at #19 overall. Tampa isn't gonna get a better impact player to help them out now with that pick and they're already picking at #10 overall.

This would allow the Pens to free up cap space, and give them the option of either keeping their own, trading back to gain picks, or even going after a need like goalkeeping. Martin goes to a pretty good situation with Tampa with all of their stars and helps solidify the defensive unit.

Then Shero can be more aggressive at/on July1st. This allows them to maximize their assets and keep cost down going after UFA's rather than trade A for b-/c- return. Which ultimately means Staal's stays here and is resigned, and make a serious push for 1 top UFA (forward or defense)to keep on the course of making a serious cup push.

I think we need to rid the team of slow one dimensional players like Asham, Adams and such, and get faster more aggressive players on the bottom six.

Cooke, Vitale, Tangradi is a pretty good 4th line.

Kunitz, Crosby, Dupuis is a no brainer

Jeffrey/UFA, Malkin, Neal the UFA could be a guy like Andrei Kostitsyn for either Malkins or Staals line. That's a pretty good fall back if you can't get a Parise or other top forward UFA.

Jeffrey/UFA, Staal, Kennedy

The defensive player doesn't need to be a top 4 D-man, they can get away with a vet signed to a one year deal who's physical and can keep things cleared from in front of Fleury/Volkoun.


Last edited by Ugene Malkin: 06-19-2012 at 11:24 AM.
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06-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
What is worth more to next seasons Pens? A perennial 20+ goal scoring young RH shot winger who was drafted 8th overall back when, who could explode with our C's, or a 7th overall 18 year old....
Surely that 7th overall COULD be significantly better than Setoguchi, but he could also be worse, and in any case he isn't going to be better for quite some time.

Give me Setoguchi for Martin and I'll be doing carthwheels.
There's a big difference to saying that Martin has negative value and saying that Minnesota should give us Setoguchi, and then add to it.... after last seasons performances, we'd be super lucky if Martin brought Setoguchi.
Seto's value has surely dropped over the last three seasons too. I'm not saying you're wrong, but its not that farfetched of a deal. I would be very happy with him for Martin. Not sure if I'd prefer him over Malone. I might just because of age and cap hit, but Malone is the better player.

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06-19-2012, 10:49 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Seto's value has surely dropped over the last three seasons too. I'm not saying you're wrong, but its not that farfetched of a deal. I would be very happy with him for Martin. Not sure if I'd prefer him over Malone. I might just because of age and cap hit, but Malone is the better player.
Not better, different. Malone is a big bodied guy. Seto is a goal score who hasn't been scoring goals. Although I do remember Seto laying down some big hits in the playoffs a few years ago.

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06-19-2012, 10:49 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Or just move Staal into the top 6 and sign a FA for the 3rd C. Then we only need to find 1 winger.
that is certainly an option.

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06-19-2012, 10:51 AM
  #46
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Not better, different. Malone is a big bodied guy. Seto is a goal score who hasn't been scoring goals. Although I do remember Seto laying down some big hits in the playoffs a few years ago.
that's Seto's problem. Everything he did was a few years ago. Malone is a big bodied guy that scores as many goals as the goal scorer.

I'd be happy with either, and with age and cap hit factored in I might have to go with Setoguchi, but Malone has been the better player for the past 3 seasons. At some point potential stops making you the better player unless you can turn around and prove it. Of the 5 years they have both been in the league, Seto has been the better player once. And that was 4 years ago.

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06-19-2012, 10:59 AM
  #47
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I'm pretty high on Setoguchi. He put up 19 goals without a legit top 6 center for much of the year, missing 13 games and dealing with injuries all year. Let alone Minnesota struggling to score altogether.

He has the work ethic, speed, physicality, RHS goal scoring that we covet. All that's missing for him to take the next step in his career is consistency and an elite center. He'd find his game here.

Neal has a slight edge with his quick release. And has the size advantage. But I'd argue Seto is just as physical (damn near Kunitz territory when he's on), is a much better skater and is a bit shiftier with the puck.

Having a linemate for Sid and a shot threat from the leftside on the PP, longterm, is a hell of an offseason move.


Last edited by mpp9: 06-19-2012 at 11:04 AM.
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06-19-2012, 11:04 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Martin is worth a late 1st. Especially to a team in dire need of one, and the others available meaning top 4 PMD's cost way more than that.
I was referring to the 7th pick. Martin would not get the 7th pick IMO. AFAIK that's the only 1st they have but I do think if they had a pick 26-30, Martin could probably get you that in a deal.

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06-19-2012, 11:26 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'm pretty high on Setoguchi. He put up 19 goals without a legit top 6 center for much of the year, missing 13 games and dealing with injuries all year. Let alone Minnesota struggling to score altogether.

He has the work ethic, speed, physicality, RHS goal scoring that we covet. All that's missing for him to take the next step in his career is consistency and an elite center. He'd find his game here.

Neal has a slight edge with his quick release. And has the size advantage. But I'd argue Seto is just as physical (damn near Kunitz territory when he's on), is a much better skater and is a bit shiftier with the puck.

Having a linemate for Sid and a shot threat from the leftside on the PP, longterm, is a hell of an offseason move.
I would definitely like Setoguchi. Forgot he was a RHS.

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06-19-2012, 11:31 AM
  #50
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I was referring to the 7th pick. Martin would not get the 7th pick IMO. AFAIK that's the only 1st they have but I do think if they had a pick 26-30, Martin could probably get you that in a deal.
No. Certainly not the 7th. I edited my post and think Tampas 1st from Detroit #19 overall would be a good pick to target for him.

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