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Ownership Cluster**** Thread: Same ********, Different 2 Weeks

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06-20-2012, 05:41 PM
  #101
manisback121
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
I understand and sympathize with their concerns, but I feel like there are good ways to fight back without resorting to fraud. Maybe I'm naive.
I'm all about the legal way of doing things as well, just giving the "lurk er's" innocuous insight into this.

It's hard to imagine a team that got to the conference finals getting shifted. Its even harder to imagine and go back over my team being the victim of the ultimate fix while your team dealt with the same fix!

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06-20-2012, 06:15 PM
  #102
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If they're so stupid, then how hard would it be to either educate or just manipulate them into signing/voting/etc. the way you want them to?
The problem being that the rationale would be manipulating them to what's right, based on people who actually care.

As an example, any individual whom GWI asks for a signature from who has never seen watched a hockey game would be the single hardest person to turn in favor. All it takes is for someone to get in their head that something that they will never likely take part in will result in increased taxes. Taxes may be raised all the same without the team and at a higher level, but that information would take a backseat to the idea of a team creating the tax hike.

Unfortunately, whereas other municipalities could make some cuts in response to the economy, Glendale had to shell out. Kind of the nature of the deal.

One of the items that I actually do think is important is branding the Coyotes as the Arizona Coyotes, not b/c the change needs to happen, but for sponsoring legislation to assist Glendale. Most stadiums are built upon a tax on some sort of bond around a general area (cigarette taxes in the Cleveland area built the Browns stadium). By changing the name, it can be argued that measures could be brought forth to create a taxing zone on the state, rather than the city that the stadium is in, or defining a generic area that would constitute Phoenix...

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06-20-2012, 06:17 PM
  #103
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i think a more appropriate use of time would be to go out to grocery Stores and large retail places like that on Sat & Sun and shadow petition gatherers to make sure they are not telling lies as a means to get signatures. kind of a polite harassing. If you cause a scene then any store manager will ask both you and the petition gatherer to leave the premises. we don't need to stop signature collecting, just slow it down so that they can't get 2k in 2 weeks.

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06-20-2012, 07:21 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
I've read it a few times. "What's to stop..." questions can be interpreted as either a) "How do we prevent this?" or b) "Is there a reason we [or someone representing our interests] couldn't do this?" I'm not suggesting anyone here has the malevolent ambition to actually pull it off, but I also don't think it was idle musing, either.
Maybe I should clarify. Someone earlier talked about starting a petition in favor of the Coyotes staying. Now whether another petition is even worth doing or makes any sense is another question. If someone went around with that petition and actually handed the signatures in there would be people who would think that they already talked to someone about the Coyotes petition if the first group of petitioners came around to talk to them later on.

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06-20-2012, 08:38 PM
  #105
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You would think that they would try to collect signatures at malls, stores, more public places. Door to door seems tough with so many people working or not answering doors. So, what if, once it was found out, the locations of the signature collection strategy, a pro coyote group could set up right next to them, and dissuade people from signing, explaining the pro's of them staying in Glendale. That could screw up their plan a little...and nobody likes confrontation or making a decision when there are opposing views present.

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06-20-2012, 10:01 PM
  #106
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Um..... the level of paranoia over petitioning is gettin' a might thick folks.

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06-20-2012, 10:04 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by cobra427 View Post
You would think that they would try to collect signatures at malls, stores, more public places. Door to door seems tough with so many people working or not answering doors. So, what if, once it was found out, the locations of the signature collection strategy, a pro coyote group could set up right next to them, and dissuade people from signing, explaining the pro's of them staying in Glendale. That could screw up their plan a little...and nobody likes confrontation or making a decision when there are opposing views present.
You go door to door because I can follow voter roles, I know that you live and are registered at that address. Signatures collected door to door are never thrown out.

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06-20-2012, 11:46 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by TeamTippett View Post
You go door to door because I can follow voter roles, I know that you live and are registered at that address. Signatures collected door to door are never thrown out.
I see your point. But it is going to be 110ish in Phoenix the next few weeks. People aren't home, don't answer the door, and if they do, do you invite the solicitor inside(saves energy cost)/stand there with the door open(energy costs more)/or go outside and listen to the pitch(110ish)? None of these options are good ones, so I think they have a tough time getting signatures this way. Think about the solicitor, his or her car is roasting, takes time to cool off, getting in and out all day. Is the solicitor a triathlete that can take the heat and do this all day in the heat or over weight, out of shape and can't take the heat?

GWI is good at extortion, this task is hard work (big difference) and I think they fall short....

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06-20-2012, 11:50 PM
  #109
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The referendum in itself will not kill the deal to keep the Coyotes but the delay it creates will. The only thing to solve this is for Jamison and his investors to publicly say they believe in this deal and commit the money. If the GWI can scare them away so easily then I'm not sure they are the type of owners (money wise) that we need long term. I for one will not support another year of limbo. So Jamison put up the money or just bow out.

IMO

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06-21-2012, 12:11 AM
  #110
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But can he commit to the deal without a lease agreement? Would his partners be willing to do so? A team with no arena is not worth much. An arena with no team is not worth much. Both need to be there for the deal to work out.

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06-21-2012, 12:14 AM
  #111
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Another question.

As I understand, the GWI can not hire the people to collect signatures. Is that correct? Can they help financially in any way? Or is this guy on his own, meaning he needs to find people willing to get signatures himself, or do the grunt work on his own? Exactly how deep are the pockets that can pay for this?

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06-21-2012, 12:29 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by frackiewicz View Post
But can he commit to the deal without a lease agreement? Would his partners be willing to do so? A team with no arena is not worth much. An arena with no team is not worth much. Both need to be there for the deal to work out.
That's the rub. Let the public, the CoG, and specifically the NHL see you are serious. I don't believe all the negative reports that Jamison doesn't have the money but he's done nothing to show he does. And now would be the time to do it.

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06-21-2012, 12:29 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by frackiewicz View Post
But can he commit to the deal without a lease agreement? Would his partners be willing to do so?
He can't even commit with a lease agreement. A delay would be a good opportunity for him to quietly bow out without being held publicly responsible for the failure.

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06-21-2012, 12:46 AM
  #114
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Does anyone have contact info for whoever made InformGlendale.com?

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Old
06-21-2012, 12:51 AM
  #115
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I can get info to them. What did you need to do?

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06-21-2012, 12:58 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by frackiewicz View Post
I can get info to them. What did you need to do?
I was wanting to do an article on them and wanted to ask a few questions. Would it be alright if I sent you a few questions to forward?

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06-21-2012, 01:13 AM
  #117
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Sure.

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06-21-2012, 01:29 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
A.R.S. 19-112(C):



A prohibition against out-of-state signature gatherers was struck down in 2010.



edit: A.R.S. 19-114(A) seems to contadict 19-112 above. ????



Which section is in effect is anyone's guess? But I did not see the out-of-state restriction on a 2011 state-by-state report card of initiative restrictions - which did list it for other states.

IANAL but

I don't see a contradiction, I see two different things - one regarding people working on behalf of new political parties, the other on working on initatives or referendums. Initatives & referendums being completely different animal from 'new political parties'.

So J Farnsworth Poppycock could come here from Boston to collect signatures to try to get local candidates for his Poppycock Party on a ballot, but if he wanted to start a referendum to ban alcohol sales after the first quarter of NFL games (the Poppycock Referendum), he'd better be a registered vote in this state.

If that is close, it is like a trolloff avatar

Poppycock Party?
No Problem
Poppycock Referendum?
Problem
Trolloffs 2012


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Old
06-21-2012, 01:32 AM
  #119
kdb209
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Originally Posted by frackiewicz View Post
Another question.

As I understand, the GWI can not hire the people to collect signatures. Is that correct? Can they help financially in any way? Or is this guy on his own, meaning he needs to find people willing to get signatures himself, or do the grunt work on his own? Exactly how deep are the pockets that can pay for this?
Actually, it may not be certain that GWI cannot directly participate in circulating petitions.

503(c)(3) organizations are prohibited "from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office." It is not clear if that prohibition would apply to referendums - particularly to supporting a signature gathering effort for a non-partisan referendum, since there is an explicit exemption for "other activities intended to encourage people to participate in the electoral process".

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charita...163395,00.html

Quote:
The Restriction of Political Campaign Intervention by Section 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations


Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes.

Certain activities or expenditures may not be prohibited depending on the facts and circumstances. For example, certain voter education activities (including presenting public forums and publishing voter education guides) conducted in a non-partisan manner do not constitute prohibited political campaign activity. In addition, other activities intended to encourage people to participate in the electoral process, such as voter registration and get-out-the-vote drives, would not be prohibited political campaign activity if conducted in a non-partisan manner.

On the other hand, voter education or registration activities with evidence of bias that (a) would favor one candidate over another; (b) oppose a candidate in some manner; or (c) have the effect of favoring a candidate or group of candidates, will constitute prohibited participation or intervention.

The Internal Revenue Service provides resources to exempt organizations and the public to help them understand the prohibition. As part of its examination program, the IRS also monitors whether organizations are complying with the prohibition.
That said, whether GWI participated directly or not - they can certainly connect donors to the petition circulating organizations.

edit: it looks like 501(c)(3) organizations can participate in referendums.

http://www.afj.org/assets/resources/...t-Measures.pdf

Quote:
501(c)(3)s can proactively initiate ballot measures or react to measures proposed by others. 501(c)(3)s
may propose ballot measures (including indirect initiatives) and collect signatures so a ballot measure can be
certified. Additionally, 501(c)(3)s can challenge the certification of any proposed ballot measure or oppose
indirect initiatives by lobbying the legislative body.

501(c)(3)s can support or oppose ballot measures and encourage the public to vote accordingly. Even
though 501(c)(3)s cannot support or oppose candidates for public office, they can urge voters to support or
oppose particular ballot measures. The IRS considers ballot measure work to be a lobbying activity because
members of the voting public act as legislators when they vote “yes” or “no” on the legislation proposed in
ballot measures.

...

In general, regardless of how it measures its lobbying, a 501(c)(3) can:
• Publicly endorse or oppose ballot measures;
• Propose ballot measures;
• Draft language for ballot measures;
• Organize volunteers to gather signatures on petitions;
• Send staff to gather signatures or conduct other ballot measure campaign work;
• Contribute money to ballot measure campaigns;
• Loan money to ballot measure campaigns;
• Host ballot measure campaign events at their offices; and
• Register people to vote and encourage them to vote for or against a ballot measure.

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Old
06-21-2012, 01:33 AM
  #120
helvete
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Sure.
Sent you a message, thanks

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Old
06-21-2012, 02:45 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by cobra427 View Post
I see your point. But it is going to be 110ish in Phoenix the next few weeks. People aren't home, don't answer the door, and if they do, do you invite the solicitor inside(saves energy cost)/stand there with the door open(energy costs more)/or go outside and listen to the pitch(110ish)? None of these options are good ones, so I think they have a tough time getting signatures this way.
Now wouldn't *that* be just a hoot and a holler? The weather that's supposed to be the reason we shouldn't be allowed to have a team, ends up saving that team?

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06-21-2012, 04:00 AM
  #122
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When we went to our recreation center in Peoria today there was a guy out front shilling for signatures to get his name on a ballot for something. In the afternoon with some shade and in an area like the recreation center, library, etc. it's easy enough to get the signatures. You guys are stressing out about this, but just accept that they will likely get the signatures as it's not out of reason that they can and hope for the best. You don't want to block democracy, you want people to be informed and make smart decisions. COG really needs to get some positive press out there about what the team means to COG and it's residents. They cannot let it continue to look like a tax paid handout to a corporation/sports team.

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06-21-2012, 09:33 AM
  #123
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I know 501(c)(4) can't collect signatures (have a buddy that works for one) but as for the (c)(3), lets assume the can participate. GWI doesn't directly have the infrastructure in place to do this, they would have to hire a Petition Partners or similar buisness. I doubt the local that pulled the petition doesn't have The soffitstication to do this himself. So let's assume there will be outside help here. It's still a monumental task.

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06-21-2012, 10:06 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by TeamTippett View Post
I know 501(c)(4) can't collect signatures (have a buddy that works for one) but as for the (c)(3), lets assume the can participate. GWI doesn't directly have the infrastructure in place to do this, they would have to hire a Petition Partners or similar buisness. I doubt the local that pulled the petition doesn't have The soffitstication to do this himself. So let's assume there will be outside help here. It's still a monumental task.
I'm sure a few of the deep-pocket Goldfish cult members will finance the effort.

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Old
06-21-2012, 10:18 AM
  #125
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http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/schedule.htm?&gameType=2

Season Schedule

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