HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Carey Price (UPD: McKenzie expects 6-7 years, $6-6.5m per, to be done soon)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-29-2012, 12:53 PM
  #751
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,133
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Apparently since Top dog money had a bigger cap % last year, Price at 7M over 7 years at the current cap is a steal!!!
Pro-rated its market value. Yes.


Last edited by hototogisu: 06-29-2012 at 01:09 PM. Reason: stay on-topic
WeThreeKings is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 12:58 PM
  #752
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
No, that's not what I "want" to say. That's what I sincerely think.

Rinne is the highest paid goalie in the league, when he's won very little. Also, Rinne's contract clearly hasn't set precedent like some thought it would. We see this with Quick, Howard, and Pavelec. No, Howard and Pavelec aren't worth as much as Rinne, obviously, but the difference between their contracts and Rinne's is huge, far outstripping the difference in quality between these goalies, imo.

Rinne is overpaid, imo.




He also had Marc-Andre Fleury at only 5 million a year. Granted that MAF has sucked lately, but he was coming off a fantastic playoffs when he signed the contract extension at 5 million a year.

Quick didn't take a discount. He took a bit less money for a longer term. It's increasingly common in the modern NHL.

Given Price being close to Quick's age, I suggested that Montreal should pitch the same approach to Price.


I'm not going to lose sleep if Price gets 6.5 million a year, but I really question this idea that he's entitled to it. And that's honestly the impression that I'm getting from some people here.

Price would not be underpaid at 5.5 million a year. In fact, that's probably what he should get, given what he's accomplished so far in the NHL.

Now, if we give that extra million to Price to seal the deal, that's fine... as long as we don't do it for everybody. hockeyfan2k11 has a point there. It can add up over time.

If you look at the NHL's best teams in recent years (the Red Wings, the Penguins, the Bruins, the Canucks) they tend to be penny-pinchers (in the sense of what they get their top players to sign for). That's part of why they're successful, guys - they get the lowest cap hit that they can manage to pull off.


And I think that's why I've been arguing for so long in here. What has Price done to be given the 2nd highest contract in the league right now? People keep talking about his age and wins. OK, that's fine...and commendable, but his playoff performances have been very inconsistent...but yet we're paying him like a stanley cup winning, vezina winning goalie. To me, you get the big money when you at least have some sort of hardware or are in the running.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 12:58 PM
  #753
Craig71
Registered User
 
Craig71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,860
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Not even close.

Price is still the face of the franchise.
Hopefully the guy on your avatar is the new face of the franchise, that will be a step in the right direction.

Craig71 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:01 PM
  #754
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,133
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post


And I think that's why I've been arguing for so long in here. What has Price done to be given the 2nd highest contract in the league right now? People keep talking about his age and wins. OK, that's fine...and commendable, but his playoff performances have been very inconsistent...but yet we're paying him like a stanley cup winning, vezina winning goalie. To me, you get the big money when you at least have some sort of hardware or are in the running.
Its NOT the second highest contract in the league amongst goalies.. It fell right in there with the top 5 in dollar amount. No where near the value of the cap that those goalies took up when they signed their deal.

If the market dictates that a piece of property is worth 10k in 2005, that is its value.
If the market dictates that the same piece of property is worth 15k in 2010, do I offer 10k because that is what it cost 5 years ago? No. The market has changed. That is the value. I might be able to negotiate it down a bit from market value based on the location or my relationship with the seller. But it might also be the best available option for me, I have to have this property, so the seller holds more of the bargaining power.

WeThreeKings is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:03 PM
  #755
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Personally, I don't give a crap if it's a 5M or 6M or 7M deal. But if we're going to pay north of 6M, it shouldn't be long term (7+ years). That's ridiculous.

Again, in a negotiation both parties are supposed to give up something for a deal to be fair. What is Price giving up to get a 7 year north of 6M/per contract ? He gets everything after having accomplished virtually nothing at the NHL level. And compared to the rest of the league he clearly gets an amazing deal as well. That tells me that we would be taking it up the arse.

I'd love to see him have a second top 5 season, and/or good playoffs before giving him that type of deal. If Price were to know another great season next season, then I'd be a lot more sold. And we could then offer him a ridiculously long deal that is frontloaded so that both the player and the team gain something in this. But right now is absolutely the wrong time to commit to Price. He has proven nothing and for all we know might never be a good playoffs goalie. 7 years is a long long time to be stuck with a guy who doesn't perform in the playoffs. For the record, that's hypothetical, I don't believe Price will always be bad/average in the playoffs, I'm sure he'll eventually step up. But I'd like to see a hint of it first before I see my team committing to him for 7 years at top dog money. How is that not sensible ? How is that position ludicrous ?
He's giving the prime years of his free agency years...also, if you just want to pay players when they 'prove something', then you're never going to have any continuity on your roster.

Sometimes, you have to show faith in your player by giving him more than he may deserve in the hopes that your faith will be repayed. That's the name of the game...it's always been like this.

As for Price being bad/average in the playoffs...not so sure I agree with that, and the sample size isn't big enough to say either way.

417 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:05 PM
  #756
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post


And I think that's why I've been arguing for so long in here. What has Price done to be given the 2nd highest contract in the league right now? People keep talking about his age and wins. OK, that's fine...and commendable, but his playoff performances have been very inconsistent...but yet we're paying him like a stanley cup winning, vezina winning goalie. To me, you get the big money when you at least have some sort of hardware or are in the running.
Then I guess the Habs should just play hardball with Price and Subban this summer...and Pacioretty and Eller next.

Because using your logic, only players who have some sort of hardware or are in the running, should be getting substantial raises.

I just don't get your beef here...who cares if he's overpaid, why does that bother you so much? All it means is that he makes more money then YOU think he should (which truthfully, it's the cast with ALL players in the NHL if you think about it), it doesn't mean that he can't help the Habs become a better team and eventually a Stanley Cup champion.

Again, did it matter this year that Dustin Penner is severely overpaid? Did the Kings not win the Cup with him on their roster?

417 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:05 PM
  #757
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Do I really need to post salaries vs. performance of goalies making the predicted value of Price's contract? Based on Price's numbers on a worse team, he deserves to be paid in the same category of these guys. Yet somehow it is an overpayment.
Goaltending is the most independant/insulated position in the game.

A goalie can play great and look great behind a bad team. Case in point : Luongo in Florida.

If the team was better, Price's GAA and win % would be better, but his save % wouldn't change that much. If anything it could get worse.

That argument is fairly meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Then I guess the Habs should just play hardball with Price and Subban this summer...and Pacioretty and Eller next.

Because using your logic, only players who have some sort of hardware or are in the running, should be getting substantial raises.
Price at 5.5M is a substantial raise already.

You're acting like we're Darche'ing him with a 2-way lowball offer.

E = CH² is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:05 PM
  #758
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,133
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Unless they are the top 3 in their position, by objective idiots who think Karlsson was the best D in the league, then we should just let them walk. Not worth it.

WeThreeKings is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:06 PM
  #759
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,133
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Goaltending is the most independant/insulated position in the game.

A goalie can play great and look great behind a bad team. Case in point : Luongo in Florida.

If the team was better, Price's GAA and win % would be better, but his save % wouldn't change that much. If anything it could get worse.

That argument is fairly meaningless.
Luongo went to Vancouver and his numbers improved. Luongo's only problem is that he has been labelled as a choker in the play-offs.

WeThreeKings is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:10 PM
  #760
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Then I guess the Habs should just play hardball with Price and Subban this summer...and Pacioretty and Eller next.

Because using your logic, only players who have some sort of hardware or are in the running, should be getting substantial raises.
And using your logic they should all be handed a blank check.

It's a negotiation. Both sides will have to make concessions....and hopefully they work out a fair deal.

Also, Price is getting a substantial raise....but I guess that's not enough for you?

Good teams work out cap friendly contracts. I'd want every player on this team to be signed to fair value contracts. Why? It frees up room to add other players. So yes, having several overpaid players on the team is a problem.

If there was no cap, I wouldn't be in here, but there is and you have to be responsible.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:11 PM
  #761
Madam Kadri
Fight, Troll, Score
 
Madam Kadri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maryland native
Country: United States
Posts: 6,297
vCash: 500
In the market hiring hockey players...and similar markets like the car market and housing market, there is no such thing as being a price taker. You do not just walk in and take the first price given to you like you do when buy groceries at a grocery store.

No one is going to a dealership just to buy a car at the blue book value, which is the "market value". The buyer is going to try and negotiate a lower price while the dealer will try to get the buyer to shell out more.

And even in the housing market, the final price you pay can be dropped down if you negotiate for it. And you can get appraisal values, which might are supposed to represent the market rate.

Determining what is overpaid, underpaid, or neither is not so cut-and dry for hockey players because there is no established entity doing the appraisals; the fans and the negotiating parties have to do it themselves.

If one is to make an analogy with housing appraisals, fidelity to what housing appraisers actually do. Doing a value appraisal with only one other comparable--looking only at Quick and thus having an insufficiently sized sample to make a substantive conclusion-- does not follow the sales comparison methodology very well. You need to look at multiple comparables, and then make adjustments after adjustments to account for variables that could affect the price of the house.

Madam Kadri is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:11 PM
  #762
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
He's giving the prime years of his free agency years...also, if you just want to pay players when they 'prove something', then you're never going to have any continuity on your roster.

Sometimes, you have to show faith in your player by giving him more than he may deserve in the hopes that your faith will be repayed. That's the name of the game...it's always been like this.

As for Price being bad/average in the playoffs...not so sure I agree with that, and the sample size isn't big enough to say either way.
I wouldn't call that "giving" at 6.5M/per for 7 years.

It's like Toews, Kane, Crosby.. they were giving up UFA years.. but they had already proven they were insanely good players and had achieved something in the NHL. Then you have to pay top dog money for the UFA years.

Price ? 1-2 all-star appearances based on homer fan voting...

You guys are acting like Price is a star player. He is NOT. He has achieved zero, nada. Not from a team standpoint, and not from an individual standpoint either. That is NOT a star player. He has star potential, but it has not realized itself yet.

E = CH² is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:12 PM
  #763
Dharvey33
Registered User
 
Dharvey33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,733
vCash: 500
Price is worth 5 m max but i guess we don't have a choice.

He better play like a top goalie because he is getting top money.

Dharvey33 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:12 PM
  #764
googlymoogly
Registered User
 
googlymoogly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,421
vCash: 500
If they can sign Price for 7 years between $42-45M it will be a good deal. If you sign him for only two years then he will end up costing more long term when those two years are up his salary might be heading towards $8 million per season after that.

googlymoogly is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:12 PM
  #765
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post


Price at 5.5M is a substantial raise already.

You're acting like we're Darche'ing him with a 2-way lowball offer.
So all of this whining over 1M? Really?

If the rumors are true, and he could be making 6.5M per year...in 3 years from now, the salary cap could be at 80M...

Is the 1M coming out of your pocket? Cause if not, I have no idea why you're complaining about it...Are you in charge of managing the Habs balance sheet? I don't get it????

417 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:14 PM
  #766
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
And using your logic they should all be handed a blank check.

It's a negotiation. Both sides will have to make concessions....and hopefully they work out a fair deal.

Also, Price is getting a substantial raise....but I guess that's not enough for you?
Price is making a concession...he's giving up the prime years of his UFA years when the salary cap will most likely be much higher then it currently is.

Both sides WILL work out a fair deal for BOTH sides...what YOU think is fair has nothing to do with it.

Price is gonna get paid regardless...if it's not the Habs, it'll be some other team. I like Price, I'd rather it be with us.

417 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:15 PM
  #767
PATCHESx67
Registered User
 
PATCHESx67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: West Island MTL
Country: Portugal
Posts: 1,388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So all of this whining over 1M? Really?

If the rumors are true, and he could be making 6.5M per year...in 3 years from now, the salary cap could be at 80M...

Is the 1M coming out of your pocket? Cause if not, I have no idea why you're complaining about it...Are you in charge of managing the Habs balance sheet? I don't get it????
+1

PATCHESx67 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:16 PM
  #768
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So all of this whining over 1M? Really?

If the rumors are true, and he could be making 6.5M per year...in 3 years from now, the salary cap could be at 80M...
What's 1M here.. 1M there.. times 23 players... eh no biggie.. it's all good, let's just have a drink in some irish pub and chill a little ...

But more seriously...

It's more the 7 year at 6.5M that bother me. It's the whole idea of paying him 2nd best goalie money for THAT long when he has done nothing.

Let me ask the question again.

Find me one player in the NHL who is paid that much for that long based purely on potential, because that's what this is.

E = CH² is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:16 PM
  #769
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I wouldn't call that "giving" at 6.5M/per for 7 years.

It's like Toews, Kane, Crosby.. they were giving up UFA years.. but they had already proven they were insanely good players and had achieved something in the NHL. Then you have to pay top dog money for the UFA years.

Price ? 1-2 all-star appearances based on homer fan voting...

You guys are acting like Price is a star player. He is NOT. He has achieved zero, nada. Not from a team standpoint, and not from an individual standpoint either. That is NOT a star player. He has star potential, but it has not realized itself yet.
Again...if your just gonna want management to pay players when they 'achieve' something, then get ready to waive goodbye to alot of players.

417 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:18 PM
  #770
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So all of this whining over 1M? Really?

If the rumors are true, and he could be making 6.5M per year...in 3 years from now, the salary cap could be at 80M...

Is the 1M coming out of your pocket? Cause if not, I have no idea why you're complaining about it...Are you in charge of managing the Habs balance sheet? I don't get it????
If you think the salary cap is going to keep increasing by 10-15% you have another thing coming. Who's to day the cap doesn't stay flat and Price doesn't get better?

If you're going to assume he's going to get better and be a superstar goalie, then I think it's fair to assume this is as good as it gets and he'll always be a top 10-12 goalie who struggles in the playoffs.

IMO, playoffs and hardware is where goalies make their money.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:18 PM
  #771
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
What's 1M here.. 1M there.. times 23 players... eh no biggie.. it's all good, let's just have a drink in some irish pub and chill a little ... But more seriously...

It's more the 7 year at 6.5M that bother me. It's the whole idea of paying him 2nd best goalie money for THAT long when he has done nothing.

Let me ask the question again.

Find me one player in the NHL who is paid that much for that long based purely on potential, because that's what this is.
Times 23 players? what are you talking about??? Talk about hyperbole...

I guess you're going to lose your s**t when the Habs eventually sign Alex Galchenyuk to his entry deal...why the hell should they pay a guy who's never done anything in the NHL all that money, right?

Give me a break man...

417 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:20 PM
  #772
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
What's 1M here.. 1M there.. times 23 players... eh no biggie.. it's all good, let's just have a drink in some irish pub and chill a little ...

But more seriously...

It's more the 7 year at 6.5M that bother me. It's the whole idea of paying him 2nd best goalie money for THAT long when he has done nothing.

Let me ask the question again.

Find me one player in the NHL who is paid that much for that long based purely on potential, because that's what this is.
There's nothing dumb about that...what's dumb is hockey fans, who since the lockout ended and a salary cap was instituted, have all of a sudden turned into capologist who are responsible for determining who is overpaid and who's not.

Who cares if he signs a deal at 6.5M per year and he's overpaid...so what? Why does that bother you???


Last edited by hototogisu: 06-29-2012 at 01:22 PM. Reason: qdp
417 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:22 PM
  #773
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Price is making a concession...he's giving up the prime years of his UFA years when the salary cap will most likely be much higher then it currently is.

Both sides WILL work out a fair deal for BOTH sides...what YOU think is fair has nothing to do with it.

Price is gonna get paid regardless...if it's not the Habs, it'll be some other team. I like Price, I'd rather it be with us.
If Price is worried about his prime FA years and think he can cash in for more, then he can sign for shorter term...then cash in afterwards. You seem to act as if a long term deal only benefits the team. It benefits the player just as much, if not more.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:23 PM
  #774
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
If you think the salary cap is going to keep increasing by 10-15% you have another thing coming. Who's to day the cap doesn't stay flat and Price doesn't get better?

If you're going to assume he's going to get better and be a superstar goalie, then I think it's fair to assume this is as good as it gets and he'll always be a top 10-12 goalie who struggles in the playoffs.

IMO, playoffs and hardware is where goalies make their money.
Meh...If that's the case, why is Ilya Bryzgalov sitting on a fat contract?

Look, it's not very complicated...the Habs have an asset they want to keep long term, so they're paying him more than he probably should make because THEY BELIEVE in him.

Case closed...

417 is offline  
Old
06-29-2012, 01:24 PM
  #775
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,133
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
If Price is worried about his prime FA years and think he can cash in for more, then he can sign for shorter term...then cash in afterwards. You seem to act as if a long term deal only benefits the team. It benefits the player just as much, if not more.
How does it? As the salary cap goes up, so does the amount of dollars a team is able to spend on their talent. You don't think Miller wishes his deal ended earlier so he could take advantage of the new cap number?

A long term deal is a risk for both player and team. A short deal is more risky for the team than the player.

WeThreeKings is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:21 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.