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Burke will have tough decision to make on Gardiner

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06-20-2012, 02:38 AM
  #26
colchar
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Can you say with certainty or proof that Gardiner will become a top 2 d-man in the NHL? Oh no? I guess that's your opinion.

No, I cannot but I haven't said that he will or won't, just that it is far too early to tell. And no, that is not opinion, that is fact as there is no possible way to determine after a single season how a player will develop. Anyone who thinks they can is being idiotic.

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06-20-2012, 02:39 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
No, I cannot but I haven't said that he will or won't, just that it is far too early to tell. And no, that is not opinion, that is fact as there is no possible way to determine after a single season how a player will develop. Anyone who thinks they can is being idiotic.
So basically your whole argument is based on a tautology. Ok then.

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06-20-2012, 03:05 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
I personally don't think Luongo will be traded to Toronto, let me say that. But honestly, the Leafs do not have a lot of high quality bargaining chips, especially when it comes to youth. There are a tonne of prospects who have unproven potential. But aside from Gardiner, and maybe a devalued Schenn,, a whole bunch of question marks that will garner little in return.

Just my opinion. Not trying to piss anyone off.
The Leafs have 7 former first round picks 22 years of age or younger playing at varying levels.

Your honestly trying to make the argument that we have no bargaining chips in a potential trade?

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06-20-2012, 03:11 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The Leafs have 7 former first round picks 22 years of age or younger playing at varying levels.

Your honestly trying to make the argument that we have no bargaining chips in a potential trade?
Yes, I am. And I feel that most of the NHL brass feels the same way.

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06-20-2012, 03:19 AM
  #30
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Yes, I am. And I feel that most of the NHL brass feels the same way.
Good on you then. I disagree entirely. We may not have that top-end forward like a Tarasenko or Zibanejad (although that could change on Friday), but we have a plethora of potential 50-60-70 point players in the ranks.

Maybe you should read-up. There's a ticker at the top of the page to link you.

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06-20-2012, 03:26 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Good on you then. I disagree entirely. We may not have that top-end forward like a Tarasenko or Zibanejad (although that could change on Friday), but we have a plethora of potential 50-60-70 point players in the ranks.

Maybe you should read-up. There's a ticker at the top of the page to link you.
Yes. As I said in a previous post, you have a tonne of unproven potential. Yet, nothing that will garner significant return. I'm sorry you disagree. But generally speaking, in order to land a big fish, more than a bunch of potential "could-be's" are offered.

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06-20-2012, 03:52 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Yes, I am. And I feel that most of the NHL brass feels the same way.
Canucks board is this way: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36

Stick to teams you have half a clue about.

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06-20-2012, 04:03 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The Leafs have 7 former first round picks 22 years of age or younger playing at varying levels.

Your honestly trying to make the argument that we have no bargaining chips in a potential trade?
I think we should put names to those 7 former first round picks:
Jake Gardiner
Luke Schenn
Nazem Kadri
Joe Colborne
Carter Ashton
Tyler Biggs
Stuart Percy

Jake Gardiner is easily the most valuable, but apparently Burke won't consider trading him. Remove Gardiner, and then ask yourself what GM is going to send us elite level talent for some of those prospects.

Would you trade Phil Kessel for Luke Schenn and Nazem Kadri?

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06-20-2012, 04:25 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I think we should put names to those 7 former first round picks:
Jake Gardiner
Luke Schenn
Nazem Kadri
Joe Colborne
Carter Ashton
Tyler Biggs
Stuart Percy

Jake Gardiner is easily the most valuable, but apparently Burke won't consider trading him. Remove Gardiner, and then ask yourself what GM is going to send us elite level talent for some of those prospects.

Would you trade Phil Kessel for Luke Schenn and Nazem Kadri?
Perhaps the goalie we need now, doesn't need to be "elite". Or perhaps there's a goalie that's not presently elite that will be. Moving our best prospects at this time, unless it enhances our depth up front, I just don't think represents our best move forward.

Opinions leave Vancouver's options compromised on one side because of Luongo's list, window of opportunity and teams currently in need of a bona fide number one goalie. Obviously the insert is, Luongo is an elite goale, and therefore the price has to fit commensurate to his value.

I would like to believe there's a middle where secondary assets are enough in a way that resembles Halak's deal from Montreal, where one of Kadri or Colborne is moved and another prospect like say...Holzer, Blacker , but I'm not sure that would fly. Mind you, I wouldn't mind if St.Louis moved Halak to Toronto for essentually the same make-up as he was acquired for...Would anyone if the option was that price for Halak, or something organization-shaking for Luongo?

If not, what's our plan to replace a first round pick this year or next and Gardiner which might as well equate to Gardiner and Schultz if rumours hold weight, plus whatever else is rumoured to be an acceptable offer for an elite goalie like Luongo?

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06-20-2012, 04:31 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I think we should put names to those 7 former first round picks:
Jake Gardiner
Luke Schenn
Nazem Kadri
Joe Colborne
Carter Ashton
Tyler Biggs
Stuart Percy

Jake Gardiner is easily the most valuable, but apparently Burke won't consider trading him. Remove Gardiner, and then ask yourself what GM is going to send us elite level talent for some of those prospects.

Would you trade Phil Kessel for Luke Schenn and Nazem Kadri?
The word "elite" wasn't used once in this thread before this post. Only a select few players in this league arguably have "elite" status.

The phrase used was that the Leafs would get "nothing of significance" without moving Gardiner/#5.

The major contention many of us have is that this drive-by analysis by CommonMeans is completely ignorant of the other assets we have. I think it's reckless to suggest these assets can't be packaged together to make significant improvements to this roster. Just last year, the Flyers asked for Kulemin and Kadri for Mike Richards.

Using Kessel, a guy who has the eighth-most goals in the league over the last four seasons, and who just came off a point-per-game season, is a serious case of cherry-picking to try and make a point.

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06-20-2012, 05:58 AM
  #36
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Gardiner is going nowhere, this article is a waste of space. Silly, give up Gardiner to move from possibly Forsberg to Yakupov...

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06-20-2012, 06:07 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
The word "elite" wasn't used once in this thread before this post. Only a select few players in this league arguably have "elite" status.

The phrase used was that the Leafs would get "nothing of significance" without moving Gardiner/#5.
What would be significant for the Leafs? A first line center, a top-pairing defenseman, or a starting goalie.... that's what I call elite.

Adding more 2nd and 3rd tier talent won't help this team.

Quote:
The major contention many of us have is that this drive-by analysis by CommonMeans is completely ignorant of the other assets we have. I think it's reckless to suggest these assets can't be packaged together to make significant improvements to this roster. Just last year, the Flyers asked for Kulemin and Kadri for Mike Richards.
There's a difference between asking for and being willing to make the trade. If Kulemin and Kadri was the best Philly could get for Richards, he would likely still be their captain.

Since then, though, both Kadri and Kulemin have reduced their values significantly.

Quote:
Using Kessel, a guy who has the eighth-most goals in the league over the last four seasons, and who just came off a point-per-game season, is a serious case of cherry-picking to try and make a point.
I think people over-estimate Kessel's value, but I suppose we'll see over the next few years.

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06-20-2012, 06:26 AM
  #38
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That "scout" loses all credibility when he ranks Colborne above Kadri.

Gards is going nowhere short of Crosby or Malkin.

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06-20-2012, 07:03 AM
  #39
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What decision exactly will be hard for Burke?

Man... journalists are having a hard time filling their columns.

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06-20-2012, 07:11 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Raptactics29 View Post
I'd trade Gardiner + for yakupov.. go ahead and FLAME me, I dare you
if your + is 5th overall. You have lost it

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06-20-2012, 07:12 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I think we should put names to those 7 former first round picks:
Jake Gardiner
Luke Schenn
Nazem Kadri
Joe Colborne
Carter Ashton
Tyler Biggs
Stuart Percy
Yep. Not all 1st round picks are created equal.

What combination of those 7 above 1st round picks could get you these two recent 1st round picks. Pietrangel/Tarasenko, Karlsson/Zbad, RNH/Eberle, Seguin/Hamilton? Burke likes to talk about how we have the "most" 1st round picks in the last 2-3 years... Yea ok, that doesnt mean much if none of those 7 are as good as the 1st round picks other teams have had. Quality trumps quantity.

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06-20-2012, 08:12 AM
  #42
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i couldnt continue reading once i saw "kadri hasnt proven he can play with men yet".... Hes just finished two seasons in the AHL... The AHL is playing with men. He hasnt proven he can play in the NHL would be more accurate... what has Colborne proved? If the same criteria applies why is Colborne deemed to be able to "play with men" after only 10 games in the NHL...

Nazem Kadri is miles ahead of colborne.

As for trading Gardiner... Toronto Sun is desperately grasping at straws here. Just wait for the draft. Burke will not be trading Gardiner when he refers to him as the next potential Niedermyer/Letang...

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06-20-2012, 08:18 AM
  #43
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Gardiner shows a ton of promise, but I can't consider him "untouchable". Hardly anyone is on this team. If the right player/ package comes along - why not. Certainly not for Lolongo.

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06-20-2012, 08:28 AM
  #44
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This thread is a prime example of how people over value what we have.

We have some guys who might crack an nhl roster one day, but not much more than that. We don't really have any elite prospects in the system.

I'm not saying you trade Gardiner, but think of what people were saying about Luke Schenn after year one and what he is today. in hindsight, it would have been wise to trade him when his stock was highest. Gardiner could end up being the exact same. So you have to at least consider trading him when you have as many holes as we do.

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06-20-2012, 08:37 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Did you read the article? Simmons didn't write it. That doesn't change anything about the article but it is a bit silly to comment on something that you apparently haven't read.
Folks on this board have no respect for what anybody says in the media. They think anybody in the media is clueless, untrustworthy, dishonest and conniving. Nobody in the media as far as I can tell gets the stamp of approval on HF Boards. Not one single journalist, analyst or talking head.

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06-20-2012, 08:42 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post


That "scout" loses all credibility when he ranks Colborne above Kadri.

Gards is going nowhere short of Crosby or Malkin.
Quote:
TORONTO - If Maple Leafs general manager Brian Burke is serious about making a splash this week with a big trade, he is going to have to think long and hard about parting with defenceman Jake Gardiner.

That’s the feeling of several National Hockey League scouts who have had more than a few looks at the Leafs’ group of prospects, whether it’s with the big club, the Marlies, or at the junior or collegiate level.

And if the Leafs put a lot of stock in their young group, it’s clear that not every one agrees that Toronto is brimming with bluechip youngsters.
Looks like more than a scout isn't convinced about the Leafs supposed prospect strength.

If we are to believe scouts ...

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He was the Leafs' leading scorer in the 1963–64, 1966–67 and 1969–70 seasons, and the team's top goal scorer in 1970–71 and 1972–73. Keon was considered one of the fastest skaters in the NHL, and one of the best defensive forwards of his era.[3] He would usually play against the opposing team's top centre, and developed a reputation for neutralizing some of the league's top scorers. In 1970–71, he scored eight shorthanded goals, setting an NHL record.
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06-20-2012, 08:43 AM
  #47
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The people who criticize media members here are very smart when it comes to hockey. They wisely suggested that toskala was too step a price for an unknown like stamkos.

This board is where the sharpest minds in hockey come.

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06-20-2012, 08:46 AM
  #48
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Looks like the Sun is pandering to the idiots that read it again.

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06-20-2012, 08:49 AM
  #49
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This thread is a prime example of how people over value what we have.

We have some guys who might crack an nhl roster one day, but not much more than that. We don't really have any elite prospects in the system.

I'm not saying you trade Gardiner, but think of what people were saying about Luke Schenn after year one and what he is today. in hindsight, it would have been wise to trade him when his stock was highest. Gardiner could end up being the exact same. So you have to at least consider trading him when you have as many holes as we do.
Without a doubt. People talk about Jake Gardiner like he is Bobby Orr. IMO, there is not a single player in the entire Leaf organization that isn't moveable for the right deal. Fans want to acquire high end talent for guys like Komisarek, Franson or Lombardi....too bad other GMs aren't brain dead and willing to give up blue chippers or elite talent for scraps. Burke's made some decent trades but really the best one was the Gardiner/Lupul for Beauchemin trade. He got a bit lucky on that one because A.) He really wanted Shultz but Anaheim wouldn't give him up and Gardiner has turned out better than anybody had hoped. and B.) Nobody even knew if Lupul would resume his NHL career let alone be as productive as he has.

Still, that was one GREAT deal for the Leafs. I don't think any of his other trades is even remotely close to the impact it has had on the Leafs. Or the value to other teams of the assets acquired.

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06-20-2012, 08:53 AM
  #50
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Ahmagah! We have a nice asset! Quick, trade it for a 33 year old goalie signed to a 10 year contract whom regularly gives up 7 goals!!!!!!

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