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Burke will have tough decision to make on Gardiner

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Old
06-20-2012, 08:55 AM
  #51
Vexxed14
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Looks like more than a scout isn't convinced about the Leafs supposed prospect strength.

If we are to believe scouts ...
I think its funny how quick some posters are to call scouts out when they have a differing view. When I hear something sourced from a scout, if coming from a legit source, I rethink some of my opinions. These guys are pro's; this is their job. I think any fan who thinks they know more is delusional.

I think the article is spot on. We have tried to move some of our prospect depth for some time now and have been trumped by better offers from teams that have less prospect depth but more prospect talent.

If we want a real impact player, I believe the article is right and Gardiner or the 5th will be our only options and in many cases both would have to be included if we're talking about a young or prime elite player in return

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06-20-2012, 08:59 AM
  #52
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Yeah, there's quantity down there but hardly anything enough to garner big talent.

Gardiner and 5th are the only things that can be moved for big talent and I am very opposed to that.

The tank job that's not a tank job is looking an awful lot like a tank job. 'Cept the Leafs lost their picks along the way.

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06-20-2012, 09:08 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
I think its funny how quick some posters are to call scouts out when they have a differing view. When I hear something sourced from a scout, if coming from a legit source, I rethink some of my opinions. These guys are pro's; this is their job. I think any fan who thinks they know more is delusional.

I think the article is spot on. We have tried to move some of our prospect depth for some time now and have been trumped by better offers from teams that have less prospect depth but more prospect talent.

If we want a real impact player, I believe the article is right and Gardiner or the 5th will be our only options and in many cases both would have to be included if we're talking about a young or prime elite player in return
Certainly, if you are believing the scouts when it supports your opinion but turn on them when it hinders it ...

I tend to think NHL scouts are like the silent majority, you are going to hear from a few vocal guys but the real opinion isn't going to be shared.

If we hear an opinion from 10 NHL scouts, is that a majority of scouts?

Leafs scouts:

Dave Morrison Director of Amateur Scouting
Mike Palmateer Amateur Scout
George Armstrong Amateur Scout
John Lilley Amateur Scout
Garth Malarchuk Amateur Scout
Alan Power Amateur Scout
Gary Harker Amateur Scout
Scott Carter Amateur Scout
Pierre Rioux Amateur Scout
Roy Stasiuk Amateur Scout
John McMorrow Amateur Scout
Darryl Stanley Amateur Scout
Bud Stefanski Amateur Scout
Dave Starman Amateur Scout
Joe Gibbs European Scout
Thommie Bergman European Scout
Jari Gronstrand European Scout
Peter Ihnacak European Scout
Nikolai Ladygin European Scout

Quote:
Finally, a word about how TSN arrives as its rankings.

Ten NHL scouts are surveyed and asked to numerically rank the prospects. The survey results are thrown into the hopper and a consensus ranking, an average of sorts, is arrived at. This process is not to be confused with the many scouting services that subjectively rank the prospects on potential to be NHL players. Ultimately, TSN's list is basically a projection of where in the draft we believe that player will be chosen and over the years it has proven to be a relatively reliable indicator in terms of a range the prospects are taken.

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06-20-2012, 09:10 AM
  #54
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Trading away Gardiner would be the biggest mistake ever cause we all know that it would come back and bite us in the arse

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06-20-2012, 09:16 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Yep. Not all 1st round picks are created equal.

What combination of those 7 above 1st round picks could get you these two recent 1st round picks. Pietrangel/Tarasenko, Karlsson/Zbad, RNH/Eberle, Seguin/Hamilton? Burke likes to talk about how we have the "most" 1st round picks in the last 2-3 years... Yea ok, that doesnt mean much if none of those 7 are as good as the 1st round picks other teams have had. Quality trumps quantity.
Agree in general, although its easy to say this.

Jake Gardiner - 17th
Luke Schenn - 5th
Nazem Kadri - 7th
Joe Colborne - 16th
Carter Ashton - 29th
Tyler Biggs - 22nd
Stuart Percy - 25th


Other than Schenn and Kadri, no one in the top-15. Takes a longer time to develop some of these guys - hell most of them. Truly, if we're comparing picks like Zbad (6th), Pietrangelo (4th), Seguin (2nd) or Hamilton (9th), those are all much higher picks and are in a much better position to show their potential earlier, because they're better earlier, hense the draft order.

We won't know what we have in most of our 1sts now for another 2-4 years. Are they blue-chip now? No. But I think we forget that it takes time to develop players - this is the norm. When Claude Giroux was picked at #22, he'd put up good numbers at the AHL level, same as Kadri and Colborne have. Still, no one thought Giroux would be a top-5 player in the NHL even at that stage. I'm not claiming any of our prospects will be, but IMO its very premature to say that none will be top-6 NHL players.

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06-20-2012, 09:23 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Agree in general, although its easy to say this.

Jake Gardiner - 17th
Luke Schenn - 5th
Nazem Kadri - 7th
Joe Colborne - 16th
Carter Ashton - 29th
Tyler Biggs - 22nd
Stuart Percy - 25th


Other than Schenn and Kadri, no one in the top-15. Takes a longer time to develop some of these guys - hell most of them. Truly, if we're comparing picks like Zbad (6th), Pietrangelo (4th), Seguin (2nd) or Hamilton (9th), those are all much higher picks and are in a much better position to show their potential earlier, because they're better earlier, hense the draft order.

We won't know what we have in most of our 1sts now for another 2-4 years. Are they blue-chip now? No. But I think we forget that it takes time to develop players - this is the norm. When Claude Giroux was picked at #22, he'd put up good numbers at the AHL level, same as Kadri and Colborne have. Still, no one thought Giroux would be a top-5 player in the NHL even at that stage. I'm not claiming any of our prospects will be, but IMO its very premature to say that none will be top-6 NHL players.
It is, montreal wrote off pacioretty before he blew up in the NHL, however, Picks at the top of the draft are considered safer bets to be impact players in the NHL. Most clubs are not going to be willing to give up that safe bet for a bunch of could be's.

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06-20-2012, 09:26 AM
  #57
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kadri cant play with men ?

then they might like him on vancouver.

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06-20-2012, 09:26 AM
  #58
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I would like to be competitive this year but I don't want to dump quality players in a trade to make the playoffs. After this season there are a lot of players coming off the books that are serviceable players and can be traded for assets or just let walk. Once that money is cleared (22mill believe) then the time will be right to acquire some elite level talent. This season is going to get messed due to the CBA anyhow.

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06-20-2012, 09:37 AM
  #59
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Reasons for fans to want to keep Gardiner:

-the ducks fleecing
-he's *relatively young
-he can skate fast and is fairly composed on the PP

Reasons for Burke to want to move Gardiner:

-he's a defensive liability
-his ceiling is a poor man's Campbell
- he's not tough
- his points don't amount to anything: PP goals or winning goals


If anything BB has fooled the world into believing that JG is going to be an elite defenseman of the future. I say we get maximum return for him now and run with it.

*warning: he's not 18 either

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06-20-2012, 09:38 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Agree in general, although its easy to say this.

Jake Gardiner - 17th
Luke Schenn - 5th
Nazem Kadri - 7th
Joe Colborne - 16th
Carter Ashton - 29th
Tyler Biggs - 22nd
Stuart Percy - 25th


Other than Schenn and Kadri, no one in the top-15. Takes a longer time to develop some of these guys - hell most of them. Truly, if we're comparing picks like Zbad (6th), Pietrangelo (4th), Seguin (2nd) or Hamilton (9th), those are all much higher picks and are in a much better position to show their potential earlier, because they're better earlier, hense the draft order.

We won't know what we have in most of our 1sts now for another 2-4 years. Are they blue-chip now? No. But I think we forget that it takes time to develop players - this is the norm. When Claude Giroux was picked at #22, he'd put up good numbers at the AHL level, same as Kadri and Colborne have. Still, no one thought Giroux would be a top-5 player in the NHL even at that stage. I'm not claiming any of our prospects will be, but IMO its very premature to say that none will be top-6 NHL players.
Giroux played less than half a season in the minors .

The longer a prospect takes to break into the NHL the greater the chance that they never make it or never become high end players .

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06-20-2012, 09:39 AM
  #61
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It's actually a very VERY easy decision.

No reason to trade Gardiner.

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06-20-2012, 09:41 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Brian Burke
I have no sense from Edmonton that that pick's in play.If someone's actively trying to get that pick it's not us.
Nough said.

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06-20-2012, 09:42 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by thecatch22 View Post
Yeah, there's quantity down there but hardly anything enough to garner big talent.

Gardiner and 5th are the only things that can be moved for big talent and I am very opposed to that.

The tank job that's not a tank job is looking an awful lot like a tank job. 'Cept the Leafs lost their picks along the way.
Nope, we had the pieces to acquire Mike Richards and since then we have acquired more quality pieces. Saying that we don't have quality in our organization is nothing but a fallacy.

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06-20-2012, 09:43 AM
  #64
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I don't think Gardiner is going anywhere. Not anytime soon.

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06-20-2012, 09:44 AM
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Did you read the article? Simmons didn't write it. That doesn't change anything about the article but it is a bit silly to comment on something that you apparently haven't read.
Its written by Terry Koshan. A Simmons clone.

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06-20-2012, 09:46 AM
  #66
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Nope, we had the pieces to acquire Mike Richards and since then we have acquired more quality pieces. Saying that we don't have quality in our organization is nothing but a fallacy.
What qaulity pieces do we have that are expenable ?

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06-20-2012, 09:47 AM
  #67
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What qaulity pieces do we have that are expenable ?
We have quality pieces that are expendable for the right player.

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06-20-2012, 09:48 AM
  #68
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There is no decision to be made, this dilemma is a media creation. The Leafs don't usually see productive young players come by, but when they do come along most NHL teams just keep them around and benefit.

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06-20-2012, 09:50 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
We have quality pieces that are expendable for the right player.
So no one .

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06-20-2012, 09:51 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Nope, we had the pieces to acquire Mike Richards and since then we have acquired more quality pieces. Saying that we don't have quality in our organization is nothing but a fallacy.
Time will tell. I think most in here are in for a rude awakening. Particularly with Colborne, I cannot fathom why people are so high on him.

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06-20-2012, 09:52 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Reasons for fans to want to keep Gardiner:

-the ducks fleecing
-he's *relatively young
-he can skate fast and is fairly composed on the PP

Reasons for Burke to want to move Gardiner:

-he's a defensive liability
-his ceiling is a poor man's Campbell
- he's not tough
- his points don't amount to anything: PP goals or winning goals


If anything BB has fooled the world into believing that JG is going to be an elite defenseman of the future. I say we get maximum return for him now and run with it.

*warning: he's not 18 either

Amazing.

So a rookie defenseman is a defensive liability? Who would have thought it? Can't expect them to ever improve. What you see is what you get?

PP and winning goals - good
Any other point earned - not so much

Maybe the NHL should only count those. Save everyone a lot of time and effort. Every game could end 1 - 0

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06-20-2012, 09:52 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
So no one .
Nope that's just your opinion, in the real world other GM's have asked for our quality pieces in return for quality NHL'ers.

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06-20-2012, 09:54 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Certainly, if you are believing the scouts when it supports your opinion but turn on them when it hinders it ...

I tend to think NHL scouts are like the silent majority, you are going to hear from a few vocal guys but the real opinion isn't going to be shared.

If we hear an opinion from 10 NHL scouts, is that a majority of scouts?

Leafs scouts:

Dave Morrison Director of Amateur Scouting
Mike Palmateer Amateur Scout
George Armstrong Amateur Scout
John Lilley Amateur Scout
Garth Malarchuk Amateur Scout
Alan Power Amateur Scout
Gary Harker Amateur Scout
Scott Carter Amateur Scout
Pierre Rioux Amateur Scout
Roy Stasiuk Amateur Scout
John McMorrow Amateur Scout
Darryl Stanley Amateur Scout
Bud Stefanski Amateur Scout
Dave Starman Amateur Scout
Joe Gibbs European Scout
Thommie Bergman European Scout
Jari Gronstrand European Scout
Peter Ihnacak European Scout
Nikolai Ladygin European Scout
I completely agree. I never said that hearing one scouts opinion made me flip my own, just that it always gives me pause to reflect on my original opinion as even the worst scout is more knowledgeable than I am.

There are some items though which catch a lot of momentum and seem to come with much more consensus. Grigs attitude issues are a good example. Could be media driven perception, could be that many scouts align on the issue, could be that he is picked 2nd overall (Maybe if MacLean was still in CLB )...

In the end though, leading up to this draft I believe that there is a wide agreement that this kid has issues with attitude.

My point is that nether jumping to defend nor jumping to denounce a scouts opinion at first glance makes much sense to me but if I were to be forced to make a decision, it would be based almost solely on what my 10 scouts had to say about the issue.

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06-20-2012, 09:55 AM
  #74
1927
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Jake Gardiner was obtained in a trade, and not drafted by the Leafs. Sometimes a trade works out great for the team acquiring that player and in this case the Leafs got value out of the deal with Anaheim.

Any smart general manager should be able to parlay acquired assets for better assets in other deals. Only for the right deal can Brian Burke look at potentially moving Gardiner. The fact is most teams are demanding Gardiner in a trade of significant value. Burke knows better not to trade Gardiner for a lateral move or decent back stop trade at best.

If Gardiner is being moved it will be for the 1st overall pick or a talent that will make the Leafs better today and not in 3 years time. Had the Leafs traded Kaberle +7th overall pick (Kadri) to Boston for Kessel than the Leafs could potentially have Seguin, Hamilton AND Kessel. Leaf fans did not want to add that 7th overall pick in that trade, just like fans are clamoring to keep Gardiner this year. Burke should not make the same mistake twice.

If Burke even has a chance at trading for the 1st overall or any other all-star player then he should consider upgrading the team.

The General Managers who take risk will end up paying off in the long run. Dean Lombardi took multiple trade gambles with Mike Richards and then going after Jeff Carter in multi asset deals. The Kings are now champions.

For the Leafs to move forward this would be a decent trade if Edmonton wanted to make a trade for first overall.

Gardiner + 5th overall for Nail Yakupov

The Leafs would gain a possible "franchise" player and still have Kessel on the team. Even if the Leafs miss the playoffs and get into the top 5 again, they will be poised to add more talent.

Let's face it; this team is short on any impact players on the roster and the majority of the prospects still have years of development ahead to make an impact in the NHL. The time is right to upgrade the talent pool for this team and forge ahead by taking some risk.

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06-20-2012, 09:57 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by thecatch22 View Post
Time will tell. I think most in here are in for a rude awakening. Particularly with Colborne, I cannot fathom why people are so high on him.
We went through this a little while back when you referred to another users notes (which were incorrect) to pretend like you knew something about him.

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