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07-03-2012, 09:37 AM
  #126
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You think Lucic is going to get 7+ mill? My guess would be closer to 5, which would mean 12.8 mill on your two top wingers. That's pretty much par for the course with the top teams in the league... you need to spend your money somewhere.
I think If the Bruins go out and get Nash at $8 million a year, and both players produce like they have the last two years that Lucic will ask for a similar deal, yes.

For that matter, Seguin might, too.

This is Exhibit A on why not overpaying for players - even for stars - is so important.

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07-03-2012, 10:06 AM
  #127
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I think If the Bruins go out and get Nash at $8 million a year, and both players produce like they have the last two years that Lucic will ask for a similar deal, yes.

For that matter, Seguin might, too.

This is Exhibit A on why not overpaying for players - even for stars - is so important.
Imo people are going to be very very surprised at how good Nash is once he moves to the East. Seguin may eventually be able to control the play in the same way Nash does, but Lucic imo never will. And that's no slight on Lucic, I love the guy, but Nash is on a different level. In my mind at least it's a non issue, because if you put the two side by side in the same situation there would be no confusion as to why Nash was making 3 million more per.

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07-03-2012, 10:15 AM
  #128
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Imo people are going to be very very surprised at how good Nash is once he moves to the East. Seguin may eventually be able to control the play in the same way Nash does, but Lucic imo never will. And that's no slight on Lucic, I love the guy, but Nash is on a different level. In my mind at least it's a non issue, because if you put the two side by side in the same situation there would be no confusion as to why Nash was making 3 million more per.
People comparing numbers of players in different situations. Lucic is a great 2nd line player who has a nice element of intimidation and plays tons of first line minutes with David Krejci. Nash is a superstar talent who was put in the position to be the sole offense for a cellar dweller. No way Lucic can command the same salary. It doesn't pass the eye test.

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07-03-2012, 10:29 AM
  #129
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I think If the Bruins go out and get Nash at $8 million a year, and both players produce like they have the last two years that Lucic will ask for a similar deal, yes.

For that matter, Seguin might, too.

This is Exhibit A on why not overpaying for players - even for stars - is so important.
1)Both Segs and Looch are RFA, they will not command UFA money.
2)Nash has scored 30+ goals every single year on a miserable CBJ team, can you imagine what hed do in boston?
3) Looch and Segs have NEVER scored 30+ goals. Even with Looch netting 5 ENG the last two years. Note: I think Segs will break the 30 goal mark this year.
4) We didnt sign Nash to the 7.8 million contract, just picked it up because we need a top 6 player and a bonafide scorer.
5)7.8 million is ~11% of the cap, Savard got more than 11% when he signed his deal.

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07-03-2012, 10:41 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by agreen23 View Post
1)Both Segs and Looch are RFA, they will not command UFA money.
2)Nash has scored 30+ goals every single year on a miserable CBJ team, can you imagine what hed do in boston?
3) Looch and Segs have NEVER scored 30+ goals. Even with Looch netting 5 ENG the last two years. Note: I think Segs will break the 30 goal mark this year.
4) We didnt sign Nash to the 7.8 million contract, just picked it up because we need a top 6 player and a bonafide scorer.
5)7.8 million is ~11% of the cap, Savard got more than 11% when he signed his deal.
Lucic already did and Seguin will

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07-03-2012, 10:54 AM
  #131
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Lucic already did and Seguin will
Ok youre right. One season he had 30 while netting ~5 ENG. Still my point is correct. If Nash and Lucic played on the same team, Nash's output would far surpass Lucic. There is no way he could command the money Nash does. Nash has had a 40+ goal season with zero help. Lucic is a product of playing on the first line with a playmaking center like Krejci. Nash has done it alone for 9 years. He has to be the playmaker and the scorer.

Point is, Nash would have 40+ goals with the Bruins and Lucic, I believe, would not have more than 30.

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07-03-2012, 10:57 AM
  #132
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Ok youre right. One season he had 30 while netting ~5 ENG.
hey felger, does that mean Gretzky's 50goals in 39 games record doesn't count?

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07-03-2012, 11:05 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
and away we go.....

We will send you piece parts whether you want them or not. We have no idea what the new CBA will contain.

Oh, and until such time we have no idea what the CAP will actually be.

Aside all of that. Chia get on it!




good ****ing grief.
Wally, you swear a lot.

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07-03-2012, 11:09 AM
  #134
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^Nash rarely has the luxury of padding his stats like that since they are never winning. Nash has had 12 ENG since 2007. Looch has had about as many in the last 2 season. It was more to compare goal output on an equal playing field. Netting ENG does not make you a bonafide goal scorer.

Anyways, even with the ENG, it does not change my argument which no one seems to care about.

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07-03-2012, 11:24 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Gator Mike View Post
I think If the Bruins go out and get Nash at $8 million a year, and both players produce like they have the last two years that Lucic will ask for a similar deal, yes.

For that matter, Seguin might, too.

This is Exhibit A on why not overpaying for players - even for stars - is so important.
They absolutely will not. Lucic is not a "star" yet, nor Seguin. Nash is a widely considered "star" and that warrants higher salary automatically.

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07-03-2012, 11:24 AM
  #136
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Nash will have a career year once he's out of CBJ. His best teamate has been RJ Umberger and a hurt Jeff Carter. RJ ****ing Umberger

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07-03-2012, 11:30 AM
  #137
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if they were able to get Nash without gutting the roster - !

Nash Bergeron Seguin

would be one of, if not the, most dominant lines in the NHL. Love Marchand but...
I think Nash mailed it in this year - and I don't blame him. If Nash goes to a decent team the rest of the league will see again how good he actually is.

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07-03-2012, 11:51 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by agreen23 View Post
^Nash rarely has the luxury of padding his stats like that since they are never winning. Nash has had 12 ENG since 2007. Looch has had about as many in the last 2 season. It was more to compare goal output on an equal playing field. Netting ENG does not make you a bonafide goal scorer.

Anyways, even with the ENG, it does not change my argument which no one seems to care about.
Wrong again, buckaroo. Lucic has a grand total of 6 ENG for his career.

FYI: Lucic has finished 3 out of his 5 seasons with a shooting percentage over 17 percent. The kid has an above average shot.

Nash is the better goal scorer but the difference is not as big as you're making it out to be. Nash has better puck skills and better ability to get his shot off. He also plays 19-21 minutes a season. Lucic has never averaged over 17.

In a Claude Julien system, Nash would not be out there 19-21 minutes a game. 1st line wingers average around 16-17 minutes for CJ. It's just the way it is when you're rolling 4 lines and demand a physical two way attack from your entire team.

I also don't understand why people try to compare the two. Lucic is a 24 year old power forward and the best throwback power forward in the league. Nash is a 28 year old big man with skill and a goal scorer's mentality. Both are counted on differently by their teams and play different roles. If there's anyone on the team I would be trying to compare Nash to in terms of upgrading their role on the team, it would be Horton.

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07-03-2012, 12:58 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Wrong again, buckaroo. Lucic has a grand total of 6 ENG for his career.

FYI: Lucic has finished 3 out of his 5 seasons with a shooting percentage over 17 percent. The kid has an above average shot.

Nash is the better goal scorer but the difference is not as big as you're making it out to be. Nash has better puck skills and better ability to get his shot off. He also plays 19-21 minutes a season. Lucic has never averaged over 17.

In a Claude Julien system, Nash would not be out there 19-21 minutes a game. 1st line wingers average around 16-17 minutes for CJ. It's just the way it is when you're rolling 4 lines and demand a physical two way attack from your entire team.

I also don't understand why people try to compare the two. Lucic is a 24 year old power forward and the best throwback power forward in the league. Nash is a 28 year old big man with skill and a goal scorer's mentality. Both are counted on differently by their teams and play different roles. If there's anyone on the team I would be trying to compare Nash to in terms of upgrading their role on the team, it would be Horton.
I cant find the ENG statistic for his career but he had 5 in 2010-11 (the year he had 30 goals) so I find it a bit hard to believe he only has one over the rest of the year. But since I cant find the statistic, Ill take your word for it.

He averaged over 17 minutes TOI this year so youre wrong, "buckaroo."

While the ENG was a bad argument in my case, "the goal scoring ability difference" is big. Rick Nash, playing on a miserable team is averaging .812 PPG his entire career. Playing on a perennial cup contender and playing with highly skilled linemates (at least the last two season), Lucic has averaged .591 PPG over his career. This is a difference of ~20 points per season..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gator Mike View Post
I think If the Bruins go out and get Nash at $8 million a year, and both players produce like they have the last two years that Lucic will ask for a similar deal, yes.

For that matter, Seguin might, too.

This is Exhibit A on why not overpaying for players - even for stars - is so important.
This is why we are comparing the two.

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07-03-2012, 01:03 PM
  #140
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Ok youre right. One season he had 30 while netting ~5 ENG. Still my point is correct. If Nash and Lucic played on the same team, Nash's output would far surpass Lucic. There is no way he could command the money Nash does. Nash has had a 40+ goal season with zero help. Lucic is a product of playing on the first line with a playmaking center like Krejci. Nash has done it alone for 9 years. He has to be the playmaker and the scorer.

Point is, Nash would have 40+ goals with the Bruins and Lucic, I believe, would not have more than 30.
Nash also gets a lot more ice time and a lot more PP time.

His ice time would go down in Boston.

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07-03-2012, 01:19 PM
  #141
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They absolutely will not. Lucic is not a "star" yet, nor Seguin. Nash is a widely considered "star" and that warrants higher salary automatically.
So you're okay with Nash making more than our Captain and being the highest paid player on the team?

For a player that has hit 70+ Points Once in 9 NHL Seasons.

He'd also make more than Bergeron who has hit 70+ Points Twice in 8 NHL Seasons and he's a much more complete player than Nash.

Nash also gets more Ice Time and more PP Time.

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07-03-2012, 01:34 PM
  #142
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Nash also gets a lot more ice time and a lot more PP time.

His ice time would go down in Boston.
Looch gets PP time as well..

While I agree TOI variable favors Nash's stat ouput, quality of linemates variable favors Lucic's stat output.

Nash's best line mate is RJ ******* Umberger. And opponents number one gameplan when playing CBJ is to stop Nash. Bruins opponents do not do this with Looch.

Anyway, this argument is moot point. We got way off track, the main argument was that Looch would not command an $8 million contract if Nash came to town. Hes an RFA, he does not have the "star power" of Nash. While Looch does have a 30 goal season, Nash has two 40 goal seasons (again with no supporting cast). Looch has one 30 goal season while Nash has only one less than 30 goal season (excluding rookie year).

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For a player that has hit 70+ Points Once in 9 NHL Seasons.
Thats a little unfair when you take into account his team, their record and his line mates. Again, opponents specifically gameplan against him when playing CBJ. He is pretty much the only threat. And with all this considered he has had 4 seasons of 65+ points. How many has Bergeron had? Oh.. only the two.

Also, Bergy has had only 1 30+ goal season while Nash has had 7... you brought up this comparison not me.


Last edited by agreen23: 07-03-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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07-03-2012, 01:50 PM
  #143
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Looch gets PP time as well..

While I agree TOI variable favors Nash's stat ouput, quality of linemates variable favors Lucic's stat output.

Nash's best line mate is RJ ******* Umberger. And opponents number one gameplan when playing CBJ is to stop Nash. Bruins opponents do not do this with Looch.

Anyway, this argument is moot point. We got way off track, the main argument was that Looch would not command an $8 million contract if Nash came to town. Hes an RFA, he does not have the "star power" of Nash. While Looch does have a 30 goal season, Nash has two 40 goal seasons (again with no supporting cast). Looch has one 30 goal season while Nash has only one less than 30 goal season (excluding rookie year).



Thats a little unfair when you take into account his team, their record and his line mates. Again, opponents specifically gameplan against him when playing CBJ. He is pretty much the only threat. And with all this considered he has had 4 seasons of 65+ points. How many has Bergeron had? Oh.. only the two.

Also, Bergy has had only 1 30+ goal season while Nash has had 7... you brought up this comparison not me.
Yes Nash had worse teammates but he also had more ice time and more PP time. So it evens out.

Bergeron is also a more complete player and is paid a Lot less.

Nash is a Good player Not a great player.

The problem is that he's massively overpaid and he has a very long contract. He has the 5th Highest Cap Hit in the entire NHL.

Do you think he's the 5th best player in the NHL?

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07-03-2012, 02:01 PM
  #144
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Yes Nash had worse teammates but he also had more ice time and more PP time. So it evens out.

Bergeron is also a more complete player and is paid a Lot less.

Nash is a Good player Not a great player.

The problem is that he's massively overpaid and he has a very long contract. He has the 5th Highest Cap Hit in the entire NHL.

Do you think he's the 5th best player in the NHL?
I don't think it does.

We're talking about him potentially losing 2-3 minutes per game in Boston. But playing on a line with either Kejci or Bergeron/Seguin far makes up for those lost minutes in the point department. Columbus is BAD, like really bad. Nash would far exceed his points total in Boston with the other weapons around him.

For arguments sake, place Lucic on Columbus and what do you think his stats look like?

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07-03-2012, 02:04 PM
  #145
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Yes Nash had worse teammates but he also had more ice time and more PP time. So it evens out.

Bergeron is also a more complete player and is paid a Lot less.

Nash is a Good player Not a great player.

The problem is that he's massively overpaid and he has a very long contract. He has the 5th Highest Cap Hit in the entire NHL.

Do you think he's the 5th best player in the NHL?
Yes it evens out (maybe?).. but I believe Nash would have 40+ G and 80+ P with the Bruins even playing 17 minutes a night opposed to his usual 19. He would get PP1 time in Boston, as well.

Bergeron is a much better two way player, no disputing that. You brought up the fact Bergy has 2 seasons of 70+ points while Nash has had 1. Well Nash has 4 seasons of 65+ while bergy has only broke 65+ twice. Nash is a better goal scorer than Bergy hands down. The Bruins need a sniper. Again, you made the comparison to Bergeron Im just going along with it yet I dont think it is the best comparison because they are very different players. Trust me, I know how valued Bergy is in the Bs organization and with fans.

I think we both agree Bergerons contract was and still is (even more so now) a steal. Comparing Nash's contract to the cap now (not when he signed because we are getting him NOW) its about 11%, Savard and Charas hit were more than 11% when we signed them.

It will be hard to say if he is a good or great player until he leaves CBJ. If you surround him with talent, I think he'll easily be a PPG player and thrive for many years to come.

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07-03-2012, 04:03 PM
  #146
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Yes it evens out (maybe?).. but I believe Nash would have 40+ G and 80+ P with the Bruins even playing 17 minutes a night opposed to his usual 19. He would get PP1 time in Boston, as well.

Bergeron is a much better two way player, no disputing that. You brought up the fact Bergy has 2 seasons of 70+ points while Nash has had 1. Well Nash has 4 seasons of 65+ while bergy has only broke 65+ twice. Nash is a better goal scorer than Bergy hands down. The Bruins need a sniper. Again, you made the comparison to Bergeron Im just going along with it yet I dont think it is the best comparison because they are very different players. Trust me, I know how valued Bergy is in the Bs organization and with fans.

I think we both agree Bergerons contract was and still is (even more so now) a steal. Comparing Nash's contract to the cap now (not when he signed because we are getting him NOW) its about 11%, Savard and Charas hit were more than 11% when we signed them.

It will be hard to say if he is a good or great player until he leaves CBJ. If you surround him with talent, I think he'll easily be a PPG player and thrive for many years to come.
The problem is that he immediately becomes the highest paid player on the team and will be for quite some time.

We also have a lot of key players that need new contracts and Nash's terrible contract is going to make re-signing players difficult.

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07-03-2012, 04:10 PM
  #147
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07-03-2012, 04:10 PM
  #148
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The problem is that he immediately becomes the highest paid player on the team and will be for quite some time.

We also have a lot of key players that need new contracts and Nash's terrible contract is going to make re-signing players difficult.
I agree but remember, a trade for Nash wouldnt happen in a vaccuum. And with Nash, Horton would be expendable and both he and Thomas would come off the books. That's 9 million right there.

Looch/Segs/Marchy/Rask will all be due for raises but they will not amount to that 9 million. I doubt this trade happens so in the end, it wont even matter.

I would not be surprised to see Krejci/Lucic/Marchy traded at some point this year.. most likely Krejci but we will see.

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07-03-2012, 04:42 PM
  #149
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I cant find the ENG statistic for his career but he had 5 in 2010-11 (the year he had 30 goals) so I find it a bit hard to believe he only has one over the rest of the year. But since I cant find the statistic, Ill take your word for it.

He averaged over 17 minutes TOI this year so youre wrong, "buckaroo."

While the ENG was a bad argument in my case, "the goal scoring ability difference" is big. Rick Nash, playing on a miserable team is averaging .812 PPG his entire career. Playing on a perennial cup contender and playing with highly skilled linemates (at least the last two season), Lucic has averaged .591 PPG over his career. This is a difference of ~20 points per season..



This is why we are comparing the two.
Lucic 2011-2012: 0 ENG
Lucic 2010-2011: 5 ENG
Lucic 2009-2010: 1 ENG
Lucic 2008-2007: 0 ENG
Lucic 2007-2008: 0 ENG

Lucic averaged 17:01 TOI this year so in essence, 17 minutes isn't wrong unless you're banking on that 1 second of time as something significant. Check your facts next time.

Lucic is a 24 year old power forward who's worked himself from the 4th line to the 1st line and is 1 point behind Krejci for the team lead in points for the past two years, during the same span where he's been the leading goal scorer. He carries his own weight offensively. Comparing his value to a 28 year old Nash and when you factor in all of the equations ( skills vs skill, ice-time, linemates, expectations, age difference ) 20 points career PPG difference is not a huge gap, especially since Lucic is trending up while Nash is starting to hit a plateau.

Plugging in a skilled player from a poor team and putting him on a better team with better linemates does not always equal greater production. See Nathan Horton as a prime example, Ilya Kovalchuk as another.

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07-03-2012, 04:45 PM
  #150
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Nash would far exceed his points total in Boston with the other weapons around him.
It doesn't work like that. In theory, yes because it sounds like common sense. But performance boosts from linemates from one team to another doesn't always happen, infact there's a lot of recent examples that show this to not be the case.

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