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Is now the perfect time to restructure the team?

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06-21-2012, 08:11 PM
  #1
Karate Johnson
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Is now the perfect time to restructure the team?

I was looking at the contracts of the mainstays of the Sabres since the summer of 2007, and noticed that not only are Vanek, Poms, Roy and Miller all FA's after the 2013-2014 seasons, but we have only 2 forwards under contract past that... Stafford and Leino.

Obviously there are younger guys with RFA years left who we'll retain, but of established NHL forwards Leino and Stafford are it.

We have Myers, Ehrhoff and Sekera set for a while.

Obviously its a few years down the road.... but other than mane Pomminville who among the forward group are we going to retain past that 13-14 season? Would we try to keep Miller? They'll all be 30+ years old.


Personally I believe we'd be smart to move 2 or more of them now, while they can still garner a decent return, promoting younger players and added a longer contract or 2 through FA or a trade and extension giving us more continuity past the next 2 seasons to compliment the younger players like Ennis, Foligno, Myers, McNabb etc.....


I know there is a "3 year plan" etc.... but i think the way our contracts line up we can get a jump on a major rebuild which IMO is inevitable after the 13-14 season.


Last edited by Karate Johnson: 06-21-2012 at 09:24 PM.
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06-21-2012, 08:37 PM
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I think a healthy sabres team is 1 player away from being dangerous, such as Bobby Ryan. I'm not saying they become instant contenders but they become a dangerous Eastern Conference team. At they very most they need to re-tool, do a little shaking up by getting rid of some of the old core. As for rebuilding I really don't think now is time with Miller likely having his last few Elite years. Remember its only year 2 of the Pegula 3 year plan

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06-21-2012, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGB24 View Post
I think a healthy sabres team is 1 player away from being dangerous, such as Bobby Ryan. I'm not saying they become instant contenders but they become a dangerous Eastern Conference team. At they very most they need to re-tool, do a little shaking up by getting rid of some of the old core. As for rebuilding I really don't think now is time with Miller likely having his last few Elite years. Remember its only year 2 of the Pegula 3 year plan

I 've always felt its best to get rid of a guy a year early than a year late... but there are two ways to go.

Get rid of the older guys who's contracts are expiring and use those assets to rebuild and supplement our budding young players in Myers, McNabb, Ehrhoff, Ennis, Hodgson, Foligno, then in a couple years we'll have Armia and Psysk in the mix. Use the added cap space to add a key FA or two and be really good in a year or 2.

or

Bet on the Vanek, Roy, Stafford, Miller core mortgage the future to add help for them by trading piks, Armia/Psysk/Mcnabb etc and try to win now.



I personally prefer option 1 because it gives us more flexibility cap wise and lets us really start fresh with Pegulas hands on everything. I don't know if Lindy and Darcy can afford to do that career wise, so we might be looking at option 2.

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06-21-2012, 08:59 PM
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Full rebuild? Nope. Not even close. They're a center, a powerforward, and a 4th line center away from being a damn good team. I'm sure they're resign some members of that crop of players that will be UFAs in two years and cut loose the others. By that time, guys like Ennis and Hodgson will be experienced enough to fill those holes, and through free agency and smart drafting, they'll be able to continue to be a good team.

I like the Detroit model. They don't implode, rebuild, play well, implode, rebuild, and play well every decade or two. They stay smart and consistent and maintain a contending team year after year. Can Darcy and his staff do that? Well, that's yet to be seen, but we all know money's no longer an issue.

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06-21-2012, 09:02 PM
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Who out of Roy, Vanek, Poms, and Miller are you willing to resign for the type of money they'll likely get in UFA when they are 31 years old?

The Detroit model is nice, but that includes being successful and being a contending team.... other than having the best goalie in NHL history in his prime, and some lightening in a bottle post lockout we really haven't been close.

But I have no problem going in that direction in the future... but unloading Vanek, Roy and Miller would put us a ridiculous amount under the cap... we can start fresh with Pegula checkbook backing us....


And in reality, we're gonna lose 2 or more of those guys anyway... they'll get more to play elsewhere.

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06-21-2012, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
Who out of Roy, Vanek, Poms, and Miller are you willing to resign for the type of money they'll likely get in UFA when they are 31 years old?

The Detroit model is nice, but that includes being successful... something we haven't been in 6 years.

Roy be traded or let him walk when he's a UFA and I can't imagine the other 3 you mentioned getting a pay raise. You'll likely see Vanek and Miller get cheaper contracts if they decide to stay, and even if they don't that still doesn't mean we need to fully rebuild.

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06-21-2012, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
Full rebuild? Nope. Not even close. They're a center, a powerforward, and a 4th line center away from being a damn good team. I'm sure they're resign some members of that crop of players that will be UFAs in two years and cut loose the others. By that time, guys like Ennis and Hodgson will be experienced enough to fill those holes, and through free agency and smart drafting, they'll be able to continue to be a good team.

I like the Detroit model. They don't implode, rebuild, play well, implode, rebuild, and play well every decade or two. They stay smart and consistent and maintain a contending team year after year. Can Darcy and his staff do that? Well, that's yet to be seen, but we all know money's no longer an issue.
the Sabres don't have anything close to the core players that have kept Detroit contenders while recycling depth around that core.

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06-21-2012, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
Who out of Roy, Vanek, Poms, and Miller are you willing to resign for the type of money they'll likely get in UFA when they are 31 years old?

The Detroit model is nice, but that includes being successful... something we haven't been in 6 years.
Well, I suspect Roy will be traded this year, Vanek will either be dealt at the deadline in two years (if the team is doing poorly) or walk, they're likely try hard to resign Pommer, and I could see them going either way on Miller. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they move him at any point in the next two years before the deadline and really shake the team up.

I don't think there needs to be this drastic, "Trade the old core for picks and prospects and rebuild, rebuild!" though. They can move pieces as necessary over the next two years and try to resign who they want.

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06-21-2012, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
the Sabres don't have anything close to the core players that have kept Detroit contenders while recycling depth around that core.
No, but does that mean they should implode and try the Edmonton way of doing things? That seems to be the OP's suggestion.

I'm all for moving any of those four players for the right return, and in the case of Roy, any return. I'm just not for sending them all packing for picks and prospects and calling it a day for the next few years.

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06-21-2012, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGB24 View Post
Roy be traded or let him walk when he's a UFA and I can't imagine the other 3 you mentioned getting a pay raise. You'll likely see Vanek and Miller get cheaper contracts if they decide to stay, and even if they don't that still doesn't mean we need to fully rebuild.

Why would they stay for cheaper contracts when someone else will pay them more than we should be willing to as we will have moved on to the next "core" by then?

Losing Roy is inevitable.... the only one i can see staying is Poms if we extend him this summer.

They are all just at that tweener age when their contracts expire where they will likely get one more decent deal and be useless at the end of it.... and do we really want another Thomas Vanek Albatross contract on the books when he's 35 years old? He's a nice player, but I think there is money better spent elsewhere.

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06-21-2012, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
No, but does that mean they should implode and try the Edmonton way of doing things? That seems to be the OP's suggestion.

I'm all for moving any of those four players for the right return, and in the case of Roy, any return. I'm just not for sending them all packing for picks and prospects and calling it a day for the next few years.
Not what I was saying....

Move those guys and add a FA like Parise for the foreseeable future, get a guy like Staal for the foreseeable future....

Use the assets from those deals to move up and draft a star. It doesn't mean we have to suck.

I just don't believe in expecting this group to turn it around and do in the next 2 years they'll be here what they could;t do in the last 5 years.

Get while the gettins' good.

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06-21-2012, 09:13 PM
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We can't really rebuild, we don't have a top picks and we have to many guys in their mid ages. We need to retool by swapping out current core and assets for more effective players

I like our youth though. Build around

x-Hodgson-x
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford
x-x-Pominville
Gerbe-x-Tropp/Kaleta
McCormick

x-Myers
Sulzer-Ehrhoff
McNabb-x

Miller
Enroth

We have some youngsters who could eventually fill those (Pysyk, Catenacci, Sundher, Armia) and a few core players who would be kept out of the following (Vanek, Roy, Leino, Leopold, Sekera, Regehr, Weber)

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06-21-2012, 09:13 PM
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The perfect time to rebuild would have been 1.5 seasons ago when we were last in the league, around 1/1/2011. Now I don't think it is worth going into a full rebuild.

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06-21-2012, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
Not what I was saying....

Move those guys and add a FA like Parise for the foreseeable future, get a guy like Staal for the foreseeable future....

Use the assets from those deals to move up and draft a star. It doesn't mean we have to suck.

I just don't believe in expecting this group to turn it around and do in the next 2 years they'll be here what they could;t do in the last 5 years.

Get while the gettins' good.
Rebuilding teams don't spend 50+ million on players in free agency or trades.

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06-21-2012, 09:16 PM
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The perfect time to rebuild would have been 1.5 seasons ago when we were last in the league, around 1/1/2011. Now I don't think it is worth going into a full rebuild.
agreed thus a retooling is necessary

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06-21-2012, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
Rebuilding teams don't spend 50+ million on players in free agency or trades.
Why not?

Who's to say how to rebuild when you can hand out 10 year deals with 30 million in the first 3 years?

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06-21-2012, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
Not what I was saying....

Move those guys and add a FA like Parise for the foreseeable future, get a guy like Staal for the foreseeable future....

Use the assets from those deals to move up and draft a star. It doesn't mean we have to suck.

I just don't believe in expecting this group to turn it around and do in the next 2 years they'll be here what they could;t do in the last 5 years.

Get while the gettins' good.
Using assets to get other good assets (say Vanek for Pavelski and Clowe) is more of a re-shuffling or re-tooling than a rebuild. I think we're all for making big changes like that. It's the word "rebuild" I take affront to because it implies to me, "Hey, let's be a lottery team!" Now it sounds like you didn't intend for that to be your stance, but that word inherently has that connotation. Of course, re-tooling also has a bad rap with some people.

The better question is: Should this team be aggressive with moving the "old core" and making a drastic change to the culture? If that's the question of this thread, then I can respond with a resounding, "Hell yes."

If it's, "Should we play in the dumps and pray we win the NHL PowerBall," then no...not at all.

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06-21-2012, 09:19 PM
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And this suggestion isn't as much about my desire to blow things up as it is the reality that in 2 years we've got to make a decision to make on Vanek, Poms and Miller.... and we'll have plenty of young guys to sign... we'll want flexibility in FA.....

You have to approach it like Vanek, Poms and Miller are going to make more than what we would want to pay them.... then think about what we could do right now to maximize their value as assets to the organization in order to build around what will undoubtably be the future in Ennis, Foligno, myers, and Hodgson....

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06-21-2012, 09:20 PM
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the perfect time to rebuild was before making the run in 2010-2011 season...

this franchise should've been in position to draft Couturier and Galchenyuk...
#whatcouldhavebeen

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06-21-2012, 09:21 PM
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I can't see Pegula signing off on a rebuild right now after all the money he invested in Ehrhoff, Myers, and Leino since he took over.

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06-21-2012, 09:23 PM
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Karate Johnson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
Using assets to get other good assets (say Vanek for Pavelski and Clowe) is more of a re-shuffling or re-tooling than a rebuild. I think we're all for making big changes like that. It's the word "rebuild" I take affront to because it implies to me, "Hey, let's be a lottery team!" Now it sounds like you didn't intend for that to be your stance, but that word inherently has that connotation. Of course, re-tooling also has a bad rap with some people.

The better question is: Should this team be aggressive with moving the "old core" and making a drastic change to the culture? If that's the question of this thread, then I can respond with a resounding, "Hell yes."

If it's, "Should we play in the dumps and pray we win the NHL PowerBall," then no...not at all.
Sorry for the confusion.... no, i don't wanna suck. And I don't think with Pegula as owner tanking on purpose is an option.....


I just think the higher paid, older guys who have been... let be honest.... underachievers team wise, all having their contracts run out at the same time, just as we get an owner who would allow us flexibility money wise, and a new group ready to step in as the centerpieces of the team is a lucky set of circumstances.....

Had the Roy, Vanek, Poms, Miller thing got us to the brink and made us contenders once or twice since 2007 it would be concerning for the opposite reasons... but none of those guys is really "irreplaceable" IMO.....

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06-21-2012, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
the perfect time to rebuild was before making the run in 2010-2011 season...

this franchise should've been in position to draft Couturier and Galchenyuk...
#whatcouldhavebeen
Exactly this.

I'd be okay with a rebuild after 13-14 too if they aren't getting it done.
2015 is looking good right now, with three potential franchise forwards (all centers, too) at the top in Connor McDavid, Mathew Barzal, and Nathan Noel (I put them in order of potential, McDavid is another level at this point).
Yes, they're bantam age at this point, but I saw McDavid and Noel in person and have watched some game footage of Barzal.
Barzal is RNH with a physical edge, McDavid looks like an elite player, and Noel compares favorably to MacKinnon.

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06-21-2012, 09:32 PM
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thefifagod
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
Why not?

Who's to say how to rebuild when you can hand out 10 year deals with 30 million in the first 3 years?
First off, those players aren't going to want to go to a team that is rebuilding. Secondly, you want to leave yourself the cap space for when the rebuilding is done and you are on the verge of contending. Then you will have any means necessary to add to your core. If you're rebuilding, these top players that you are signing are going to prevent you from bottoming out, therefore preventing you from getting top draft picks, the most necessary part of a rebuild.

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06-21-2012, 10:29 PM
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Exactly this.

I'd be okay with a rebuild after 13-14 too if they aren't getting it done.
2015 is looking good right now, with three potential franchise forwards (all centers, too) at the top in Connor McDavid, Mathew Barzal, and Nathan Noel (I put them in order of potential, McDavid is another level at this point).
Yes, they're bantam age at this point, but I saw McDavid and Noel in person and have watched some game footage of Barzal.
Barzal is RNH with a physical edge, McDavid looks like an elite player, and Noel compares favorably to MacKinnon.
Just started scouting McDavid, kids legit could be the best since Crosby

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06-21-2012, 10:30 PM
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I'm cringing at the thought of paying Miller even more money.
I'm totally happy at Roy playing for another team.
I'd be ok with Vanek making gobs of money for the same output elsewhere. Not here.
Pominville at $5+ is acceptable. But more is ludicrous.

None of the four players deserves more than they are paid now. Even with an increase in leaguewide payroll.

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