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06-21-2012, 11:48 AM
  #1
Layne Staley
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Since the lockout....

Since the NHL Lockout, our Buffalo Sabres have 3 of the top 36 scorers in the whole NHL.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
Thomas Vanek - 26th (6th in LW scoring)
Jason Pominville - 31st (7th in RW scoring)
Derek Roy - 36th (15th in C scoring)

Vanek is 8th in the whole league in goals since the lockout also.Not bad for those 3, considering a vast majority don't even consider Vanek a top winger, and also consider Derek Roy as trash.Pominville though, gets his fair share of due praise.The other two?Never.

Derek Roy is the 15th highest scoring center since the lockout, ahead of some "true #1 centers" like Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Mikko Koivu, Stephen Weiss, and Ryan Kesler.

What makes me laugh is the thought process around here on Derek Roy.95% of you think he's garbage and should dump him for picks.Derek Roy is still a top 6 center, and quite frankly he probably still is a #1 center.There are NOT 30 centers better then Roy.He has a major injury in a year he has a PPG average, so of course last season he disappointed because he was STILL RECOVERING FROM A CATASTROPHIC INJURY!But why do people think he won't return to the 65+ point version of Roy?If anything, I think he may lead our team in scoring this season.

I know this will be flooded with the Roy haters, but all I'm gonna say is that I will wait for the season to end to see the production he puts up to see where his value truly is, of course the opinion on him after a 44 point season is very low, but what about when he went down with his injury with 35p in 35gp?I can go pull up those threads, but it's too funny seeing all the people who trash Roy now defend him in the thread from 10-11.

And for Vanek, if anyone doesn't think he is an elite LW or that he is inferior to Bobby Ryan, well like the old saying goes (and it is so true for this board) "The grass is always greener". Even when production dictates Vanek as more productive with less ice-time, he still is considering second rate and not an elite LW, which he actually is.

Looking at Pominville, he deserves his praise and there are really no complaints about him, as there shouldn't be. He is a top 10 RW in the league and last season was our most complete player.

I'm just excited for what the future holds, if we can add a Bobby Ryan without trading Roy,Stafford,Vanek etc then we can get right back into the top of our conference.There are no excuses for this season, Ruff must produce with this lineup.

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06-21-2012, 12:01 PM
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All that stat crunching, and where has it gotten the Sabres?
No where, that's where.

Numbers are irrelevant if the players ARE NOT CONSISTENT!!!!!

Seriously though, that is the truth of the matter. Out of Vanek, Roy and Pomers, the only one to show a slight hedge toward clutch player is Pomer's.

Vanek and Roy are garbage in my humble opinion and the sooner we jettison that trash, the better.

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06-21-2012, 12:12 PM
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CarlWinslow
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Jettison them for what?

Mid round picks?

How often does an elite scorer get plucked from the back half of the first round? Its pretty rare.

The Sabres are much better of carrying on with a depth based scoring approach at this point and trying to hit some home runs with the picks the have. Either that or blow it up and rebuild it all. The team isn't that far off though.

Who won the Cup? The Kings... Who was their top 10 scorer? Nobody.

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06-21-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
Jettison them for what?

Mid round picks?

How often does an elite scorer get plucked from the back half of the first round? Its pretty rare.

The Sabres are much better of carrying on with a depth based scoring approach at this point and trying to hit some home runs with the picks the have. Either that or blow it up and rebuild it all. The team isn't that far off though.

Who won the Cup? The Kings... Who was their top 10 scorer? Nobody.
Kopitar? Top 10 center/point producer the last 4-5 years. He's a superstar in that he also plays on penalty kill all game. Guy is a total stud. We have no one comparable to him on this team.

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06-21-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Kopitar? Top 10 center/point producer the last 4-5 years. He's a superstar in that he also plays on penalty kill all game. Guy is a total stud. We have no one comparable to him on this team.
We have Pominville who scored 3 less points than Kopitar.

In fact, Pominville has shown similar versatility.

We could definitely use a C in the same mold as Kopitar, probably in Roy's spot but how many are available? 0?

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06-21-2012, 12:30 PM
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... and they have 3 no shows, and 2 quick exits to show for it!

Yay!!!! Looking at Offense Only!!!

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06-21-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
Jettison them for what?

Mid round picks?

How often does an elite scorer get plucked from the back half of the first round? Its pretty rare.

The Sabres are much better of carrying on with a depth based scoring approach at this point and trying to hit some home runs with the picks the have. Either that or blow it up and rebuild it all. The team isn't that far off though.

Who won the Cup? The Kings... Who was their top 10 scorer? Nobody.
So we carry on with our depth, miss the playoffs or get bounced in the first round again a couple more times, and Roy Vanek and Pomminville are all gone buy the time these "home runs" are NHL regulars anyway?



The reality is the only success we've had in the last decade was based on a core that isn't here... Drury, Briere, Campbell, Hank, McKee etc.... Once they turned the keys over to the current group we''ve done squat.

Its been 5 years, whats gonna change?

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06-21-2012, 12:34 PM
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Layne Staley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
All that stat crunching, and where has it gotten the Sabres?
No where, that's where.

Numbers are irrelevant if the players ARE NOT CONSISTENT!!!!!

Seriously though, that is the truth of the matter. Out of Vanek, Roy and Pomers, the only one to show a slight hedge toward clutch player is Pomer's.

Vanek and Roy are garbage in my humble opinion and the sooner we jettison that trash, the better.
Where has it gotten the Sabres? Well those 3 are only 3 players, you want to point fingers point them at Ruff and the rest of the team.

And if you think Vanek and Roy are garbage then I don't know what to say to someone who has no grasp of knowledge. Let's get rid of the ~60 goals a year Vanek and Roy combine for, I'm sure Leino and Gerbe will do even better in their spots

Vanek isn't the problem, its our coaching and inconsistent "franchise" goalie and our d-core.Not to mention our scoring depth was non existent last season. This team needs a new coach more then it needs to trade 2-3 of the most productive players the past 7 seasons.

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06-21-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Where has it gotten the Sabres? Well those 3 are only 3 players, you want to point fingers point them at Ruff and the rest of the team.

And if you think Vanek and Roy are garbage then I don't know what to say to someone who has no grasp of knowledge. Let's get rid of the ~60 goals a year Vanek and Roy combine for, I'm sure Leino and Gerbe will do even better in their spots
Vanek and Roy haven't produced 60 goals together in 3 years.... last year they netted 43, which Vanek should be doing himself for $6.whatever million.

And who is just giving away Roy and Vanek?

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06-21-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Where has it gotten the Sabres? Well those 3 are only 3 players, you want to point fingers point them at Ruff and the rest of the team.
yea... point fingers at the "parts" of the problem

Quote:
And if you think Vanek and Roy are garbage then I don't know what to say to someone who has no grasp of knowledge. Let's get rid of the ~60 goals a year Vanek and Roy combine for, I'm sure Leino and Gerbe will do even better in their spots
honestly, this is the best line ever

Quote:
Vanek isn't the problem, its our coaching and inconsistent "franchise" goalie and our d-core.Not to mention our scoring depth was non existent last season. This team needs a new coach more then it needs to trade 2-3 of the most productive players the past 7 seasons.
They are ALL the problem
Lindy, Regier, Vanek, Roy, Miller, Pommer...

2 more years... it will all be over soon guys
:thankgod:

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06-21-2012, 12:47 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
We have Pominville who scored 3 less points than Kopitar.

In fact, Pominville has shown similar versatility.

We could definitely use a C in the same mold as Kopitar, probably in Roy's spot but how many are available? 0?
pominville is not in kopitar's class. not even close.

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06-21-2012, 12:56 PM
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Those 3 haven't won becasue it takes far more than 3 players to take a team to a Cup. Not having anything behind them/with them is the problem.

Show me one "stud" core player or players thats won anything without a very strong well built team around them. You can't.

Posters have compared what those 3 have done against the Cup winners post lockout. Its absurd to compare them since those teams were far more talented and deeper and SHOULD have more success.

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06-21-2012, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Those 3 haven't won becasue it takes far more than 3 players to take a team to a Cup. Not having anything behind them/with them is the problem.

Show me one "stud" core player or players thats won anything without a very strong well built team around them. You can't.

Posters have compared what those 3 have done against the Cup winners post lockout. Its absurd to compare them since those teams were far more talented and deeper and SHOULD have more success.
I would make an argument that it's difficult, or near impossible, to build a strong team, around a weak core.

The Sabres are soft. "They don't like to get hit". And no matter what you put around the "soft core", the team will remain soft, because its led by softies.

How do you think Dustin Brown or David Backes would've reacted to Miller getting run?

Soft = Losing

The belief that the problem is secondary and tertiary players is one of the great mysteries of the last 5 years

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06-21-2012, 01:15 PM
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I'm of the opinion that Roy and Vanek ARE the complimentary piece you put around a core.

We gotta establish a core.

Hopefully Myers, Foligno, Hodgson and Ennis is a start.

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06-21-2012, 01:18 PM
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Reminder that

Brown-Staal-Ryan
scrub - scrub- scrub



and so on would win us a cup if scrubs hit.

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06-21-2012, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
I'm of the opinion that Roy and Vanek ARE the complimentary piece you put around a core.

We gotta establish a core.

Hopefully Myers, Foligno, Hodgson and Ennis is a start.
include Pominville in that statement too IMO.

each of those 3 core players has quality hockey attributes. They are also all darn good at what they are.... they just aren't the players you build a contender around.

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06-21-2012, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Reminder that

Brown-Staal-Ryan
scrub - scrub- scrub



and so on would win us a cup if scrubs hit.
I guess the implication here is that after Van-Roy-Pom : everyone they've had around them in the last 5 years are scrubs?

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06-21-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I would make an argument that it's difficult, or near impossible, to build a strong team, around a weak core.

The Sabres are soft. "They don't like to get hit". And no matter what you put around the "soft core", the team will remain soft, because its led by softies.

How do you think Dustin Brown or David Backes would've reacted to Miller getting run?

Soft = Losing

The belief that the problem is secondary and tertiary players is one of the great mysteries of the last 5 years
The same argument was made about Dustin Brown and the Kings not having the right core. Or have we forgotten the Brown trade talk? Add in Richards and Carter in the top 6 and King/Nolan in the bottom 6 and the Kings are a very different team and they win the Cup. Thats because its no longer on primarily Brown and Kopitar to carry the day up front.

Prior to this year the Kings hadn't gotten out of the first round. Did Kopitar and Brown suddenly get it this year? Of course not, they got a lot of re-inforcements.


No idea what Backes has to do with anything since he hasn't won a thing in this league yet. He also didn't do much production-wise in the playoffs either.

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06-21-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The same argument was made about Dustin Brown and the Kings not having the right core. Or have we forgotten the Brown trade talk? Add in Richards and Carter in the top 6 and King/Nolan in the bottom 6 and the Kings are a very different team and they win the Cup. Thats because its no longer on primarily Brown and Kopitar to carry the day up front.

Prior to this year the Kings hadn't gotten out of the first round. Did Kopitar and Brown suddenly get it this year? Of course not, they got a lot of re-inforcements.


No idea what Backes has to do with anything since he hasn't won a thing in this league yet. He also didn't do much production-wise in the playoffs either.
so you are equating Brown, Kopitar, Doughty with Vanek, Pominville, Myers?

Are you willing to trade assets like Ennis and Foligno to add a Mike Richards (Schenn+Simmonds)?

Are you willing to trade Tyler Myers (Jack Johnson+1st) to snag a high end player like Jeff Carter?

Do believe enough in the Pom/Van/Roy/Miller core... to sacrifice the assets it would take to add the pieces LA needed to add? They believed in their core enough to make those kind of moves.

Really. Take a minute and think about that.

I used Backes/St Louis and Brown/LA as examples of teams that groomed a good strong core, and added to it at the right time.

You and Regier are on the same page. You believe in this core. And want to add to it, like LA and St Louis did.

I think this core is fatally flawed, and think adding to it won't change much. Not to mention the assets necessary to make significant additions.

Im looking forward to 2014 when this core is finally gone entirely. At which point I expect Lindy Ruff would be fired after 2 more swings and nothing but a token playoff showing or 2.

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06-21-2012, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Where has it gotten the Sabres? Well those 3 are only 3 players, you want to point fingers point them at Ruff and the rest of the team.

And if you think Vanek and Roy are garbage then I don't know what to say to someone who has no grasp of knowledge. Let's get rid of the ~60 goals a year Vanek and Roy combine for, I'm sure Leino and Gerbe will do even better in their spots

Vanek isn't the problem, its our coaching and inconsistent "franchise" goalie and our d-core.Not to mention our scoring depth was non existent last season. This team needs a new coach more then it needs to trade 2-3 of the most productive players the past 7 seasons.
I believe you are firm on your opinion as well, but to state that I have no grasp of knowledge is laughable at worst, down right get stoned giggles at best.

I've been around since the teams inception into the league, I'll take my 40+ years of fan and casual player experience over your opinion, but I do thank you for letting me know you think my opinions are garbage, it will help me to avoid further prolonged conversations with you on hockey, and the Sabres current status in the future.

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06-21-2012, 01:36 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I would make an argument that it's difficult, or near impossible, to build a strong team, around a weak core.

The Sabres are soft. "They don't like to get hit". And no matter what you put around the "soft core", the team will remain soft, because its led by softies.

How do you think Dustin Brown or David Backes would've reacted to Miller getting run?

Soft = Losing

The belief that the problem is secondary and tertiary players is one of the great mysteries of the last 5 years
We're still on this? They admitted they messed up. They promised to do better in the future. They did the next time it happened in the 'Take That Tootoo' game. Unless someone invents a time machine to allow them to revisit the Lucic incident and do it over again, all you can ask is that they react correctly going forward, and they did.

To the larger point, hockey is the most team of all the team sports in my opinion. One guy doesn't win you a Cup. Discounting the secondary and tertiary players is folly. I think that the players referred to as the 'core' constantly around here are good players, however over time they've shown that they're not good enough together.

It'd time to identify what changes you can make and what players WILL be good enough together, and make those moves.

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06-21-2012, 01:37 PM
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... and they have 3 no shows, and 2 quick exits to show for it!

Yay!!!! Looking at Offense Only!!!
And now we come to Buffalo's HF board self anointed "my way or I'll kick up a fuss much like an infant that is hungry does" resident.

You claim to have all of this knowledge, but for someone that does, you certainly don't apply logical thought to it. Otherwise, by your thinking, the Sabres should have won 5 cups by now.....

Just sayin........

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06-21-2012, 01:38 PM
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include Pominville in that statement too IMO.

each of those 3 core players has quality hockey attributes. They are also all darn good at what they are.... they just aren't the players you build a contender around.
I considered adding Pomminville... but i think he's on the cusp of being the do it all guy as part of a core... like a complete two-way guy that compliments a playmaking center, a sniper and a shutdown pair of defensemen that a core should be.

If Poms played Center he'd be that without question.

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06-21-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
I believe you are firm on your opinion as well, but to state that I have no grasp of knowledge is laughable at worst, down right get stoned giggles at best.

I've been around since the teams inception into the league, I'll take my 40+ years of fan and casual player experience over your opinion, but I do thank you for letting me know you think my opinions are garbage, it will help me to avoid further prolonged conversations with you on hockey, and the Sabres current status in the future.
and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
And now we come to Buffalo's HF board self anointed "my way or I'll kick up a fuss much like an infant that is hungry does" resident.

You claim to have all of this knowledge, but for someone that does, you certainly don't apply logical thought to it. Otherwise, by your thinking, the Sabres should have won 5 cups by now.....

Just sayin........
same person right?

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06-21-2012, 01:45 PM
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Reality says that of the 3 only Roy could be moved anyway... and why not?

Lets say we do nothing of significance over the next calendar year... Roy is gone in 375 days anyway he's a decent enough player to garner a contract from a team that (I hope to god) the Sabres aren't willing to tie him.

Now ask yourself... is this coming year of Derek Roy going to be the difference between winning a cup or not? I contend that it is not.


Its likely that we do indeed add a center, and I am confident penciling Ennis and Hodgson in as the 1 and 2 C in the event we don't if it means we get something for Roy now.


IMO the benefits of moving Roy a year early instead of a year late far outweigh the difference he'll make on the ice, knowing that he isn't going to be here past this season.

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