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The Nash Thread III (all things Nash here)

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06-22-2012, 01:25 AM
  #126
CapnCornelius
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Unless, of course, it's a large collection of prospects. And if it is, we're right back into the same situation as with the Rangers...a handful of players who might make a difference and might not.
Which is better, 5 lottery tickets or $100,000?

If all we are getting is a pile of prospects, we may find at the end of the day we got nothing. There had best be at least one piece coming back that helps us now. And I would hope it is someone better than Nick Foligno.

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06-22-2012, 01:40 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Which is better, 5 lottery tickets or $100,000?

If all we are getting is a pile of prospects, we may find at the end of the day we got nothing. There had best be at least one piece coming back that helps us now. And I would hope it is someone better than Nick Foligno.
Since the lottery odds are something like 1 in 175 million, I don't know that it's the best example. The Jagr trade was a good example of moving a prime piece for a handful of highly-regarded prospects, although there was also the salary variable that was a huge component in that deal.

But here's where we're going to diverge. I'm going to say that I have confidence that, given a list of Ottawa's prospects to choose from, some pretty good choices would be made that have a better-than-50/50 shot of panning out. I can see the inclusion of Mark Stone being a deal-breaker on either direction, if it comes down to it. But then you're going to come right back with some crack about the drafting under this regime, and we're going to go right back into the argument we've had countless times.

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06-22-2012, 01:51 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Since the lottery odds are something like 1 in 175 million, I don't know that it's the best example. The Jagr trade was a good example of moving a prime piece for a handful of highly-regarded prospects, although there was also the salary variable that was a huge component in that deal.

But here's where we're going to diverge. I'm going to say that I have confidence that, given a list of Ottawa's prospects to choose from, some pretty good choices would be made that have a better-than-50/50 shot of panning out. I can see the inclusion of Mark Stone being a deal-breaker on either direction, if it comes down to it. But then you're going to come right back with some crack about the drafting under this regime, and we're going to go right back into the argument we've had countless times.
I've got a better argument--Tyler Wright. We've got an inexperienced "head of amateur scouting" who probably has less idea than you do about Ottawa's prospects.

The Jagr trade is exactly what I'm afraid of. The Pens fought to get Kris Beech included. Kris Beech! None of the prospects acquired amounted to anything. But, hey, it indirectly led to them getting Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Fleury.

Oh yeah, and their GM at that time is now guiding Howson. So, nothing to worry about here.

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06-22-2012, 02:26 AM
  #129
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How does Howson still have a job? Boggles my mind daily...

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06-22-2012, 02:35 AM
  #130
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How does Howson still have a job? Boggles my mind daily...
Because he works in Columbus and not Montreal

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06-22-2012, 02:51 AM
  #131
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If Howson was actually trying to build this team right he'd trade Nash for the best collection of prospects and draft picks ASAP. I don't understand why he's worried about filling Roster spots. That just feels like a job-saving tactic as there's prospects/picks is the best long-term strategy.

There's been speculation that Howson had a pretty great deal (prospects/picks) from Ottawa, but Nash nixed it (or created a delay at least). Which leads me to believe either Ottawa wasn't on his list and/or the teams Nash would now approve a trade to may have started narrowing.

The longer Nash stays in limbo and no longer feels like he's going to be a Blue Jacket, the more he'll be frustrated with Howson and CBJ org. So I can see him maneuvering in some ways (narrowing the list further) to enhance the leverage of the team he eventually gets traded to. I can only imagine that relationship growing more tense, not less.

It's possible that Howson's tactics in delaying are not just to get the best deal but to also to cajole Nash/Resnick into accepting a less desirable destination. Sure Nash has a NMC, but Howson doesn't HAVE to move him. (though, at some point during this off-season he really does...)

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06-22-2012, 06:59 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by gravey9 View Post
If Howson was actually trying to build this team right he'd trade Nash for the best collection of prospects and draft picks ASAP. I don't understand why he's worried about filling Roster spots. That just feels like a job-saving tactic as there's prospects/picks is the best long-term strategy.
Sometimes your frst assumption is the correct one. Howson HAS to get something of immediate, tangible value back for Nash. He can't go to the fanbase and sell a deal which netted him (even if they are elite ones) just prospects or picks. Not for a team that claims it simple wants to "retool".


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06-22-2012, 07:43 AM
  #133
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For all we know, Resnick and Howson talked with Nash on speakerphone with an agreement that if Issue X and Y were taken care of by July 2, that the trade request would be completely rescinded.

I maintain that the only three guys who have any real idea what's going on are Nash, Resnick, and Howson. Maybe the offers haven't been there at any point, and maybe no one's really looking to make a move. Maybe it's nothing but the typical quantity-for-quality garbage, and is little better than what we see here on the trade boards.
I'll give you two out of three -

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06-22-2012, 07:59 AM
  #134
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I've got a better argument--Tyler Wright. We've got an inexperienced "head of amateur scouting" who probably has less idea than you do about Ottawa's prospects.
Though I have great respect for Mayor Bee, I doubt this. I would even venture to guess that Wright may know more about prospects around the league than you. Hard to believe, I know.

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06-22-2012, 08:16 AM
  #135
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Sometimes your frst assumption is the correct one. Howson HAS to get something of immediate, tangible value back for Nash. He can't go to the fanbase and sell a deal which netted him (even if they are elite ones) just prospects or picks. Not for a team that claims it simple wants to "retool".
I don't like Howson, but I don't think that's it at all. I think he's convinced his job is safe. There's no reason for him not to be.

I think Craig Patrick should be the one warning him about trading a star player for picks and prospects. Go back and look at the Jagr trade. Beech was the best player that Pittsburgh got and they traded Jagr and former Jacket Frantisek Kucera to get him, Ross Lupaschuk and Michal Sivek (all 2 years removed from being drafted in 1999). Beech and Lupaschuk had put up respectable numbers in Juniors. Sivek was kind of a wild card having done well in one season in the WHL but looking less impressive in the Czech senior league.

Man, I remember that trade like it was yesterday, but going back and re-reading articles from the time shows a possibility for some eerie similarities...

From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:
Quote:
Jagr, one of hockey's flashiest players during his 11 years in the league, was disappointed the Penguins didn't trade him during last month's NHL draft.
Quote:
Before the deal, the New York Rangers were believed to be the front runner to obtain Jagr. However, Patrick said he was never satisfied with any of the offers made for Jagr until talks with the Capitals became serious "within the last day or so."

Prior to the Capitals' offer, Patrick said he was becoming concerned that the Penguins would not be able to obtain proper value for Jagr.

***

Twice during the season and once after the playoffs, Jagr asked the Penguins to trade him
From the LA Times:

Quote:
"He wanted to move on, so he's glad at this point that it's over with," Penguin General Manager Craig Patrick told reporters in Pittsburgh. "It's difficult to trade someone who has been here 11 years and accomplished so much."

Asked to explain the lopsided appearance of the trade, Patrick said: "This is the only deal that made sense to us. It's not in the best interest of our team to keep someone who didn't want to be here. I'm glad it's been accomplished. The players we got in return are all 20 years old and all have pretty good futures."
Now, the Pens had a money motive which allegedly isn't in play here, so the situations aren't entirely the same. But it should be a warning to people that think that going the prospect/pick route is the "smart move". At the time, Pens fans were telling me how great the future was going to be with Milan Kraft and Kris Beech both coming into their own. Kraft played parts of 3 more season with the Pens. Beech was out of the league by 2008.

Trading for roster players isn't about filling out the roster--it is about insuring you get some value out of the trade. It is also why I totally get attempting to get a Couture--he's a roster player with the potential for upside and he's got an excellent contract situation. However, I also think you have to be realistic in these situations and realize the likeliehood of getting a Couture is low.

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06-22-2012, 08:25 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Trading for roster players isn't about filling out the roster--it is about insuring you get some value out of the trade. It is also why I totally get attempting to get a Couture--he's a roster player with the potential for upside and he's got an excellent contract situation. However, I also think you have to be realistic in these situations and realize the likeliehood of getting a Couture is low.
It's obtaining the right mix in what appears to be an obstinate market (obstinate meaning unwilling to move toward you, not obstinate meaning unrealistically unyielding) that's going to be the trick. And, reading the varied reactions to the 2-3 possible/rumored offers, I can tell you that, assuming Howson can only make (at the most) one of them, there are going to be people that don't like it.

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06-22-2012, 08:29 AM
  #137
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That would, I think, be quite the thing to see.
I do approve of this suggested act.



I'd have that one on the back burner. I don't like the futures-to-rosterplayers ratio. It's otherwise fine.
I thought you might say that (roster players)....And I don't disagree.

I would be caution those however who are quick to compare the level of prospect being discussed when comparing Zbad and Lehner vs. Miller, Thomas, McIlrath,etc. Not saying you are one of those people but others probably do.

I mean Zbad is regarded in the same light (maybe higher) as a Kreider for example.
Lehner is arguably one of the top 3 goalie prospect and certainly shined with his short stint with the big club.

Futures are always a gamble but this isn't chopped liver the Sens are possibly talking about.

It would just be dissapointing if Nash is pouting about being traded to Ottawa after Philly traded Carter here unconditionally and got a good return.

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06-22-2012, 08:29 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
It's obtaining the right mix in what appears to be an obstinate market (obstinate meaning unwilling to move toward you, not obstinate meaning unrealistically unyielding) that's going to be the trick. And, reading the varied reactions to the 2-3 possible/rumored offers, I can tell you that, assuming Howson can only make (at the most) one of them, there are going to be people that don't like it.
And there will be some that will be unhappy no matter what he does.

And there will be some that will want to wait and see.

And there will be some that like parts and not others.

Kind of like usual.

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06-22-2012, 08:31 AM
  #139
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Though I have great respect for Mayor Bee, I doubt this. I would even venture to guess that Wright may know more about prospects around the league than you. Hard to believe, I know.
Oh, there are plenty of people that know more than I do about prospects around the league.

Unfortunately for us, Tyler doesn't compete against people on this board. He competes against the scouts for 29 other teams, most of whom have vastly more experience than he does.

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06-22-2012, 08:32 AM
  #140
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I'm not too particularly fond of Howson either, and we can ill afford for the trade to turn out like anything close to the Jagr deal Patrick made several years ago. Can the fanbase (or perhaps a better question, will ownership tolerate) toiling at the bottom for a few years longer, as you mentioned, that trade could be directly related to Pitts drafting in the top 5 for a number of years eventhough they managed to get a hold of Malkin and Fleury, and to a lesser extent, Staal.

If both parties have agreed to the divorce here, even if its a begrudging agreement from one side (management), they owe it to the fanbase to work something out. Lots of people would be fine if he wasn't traded, but honestly, you can't go back now. I don't care if he shows up next season and he doesn't have the "C" on, we can't deal with this type of distraction, even if neither party decides its in the best interest to be a distraction. The organization is trying to forge a new culture and identity, whats worse than having the embodiment of that old culture and identity hanging around? What happens as soon as the CBJ hit a skid, losing 6 of 7, or, forbid, starting similar to last season? The media has smelled and gotten blood on this, its never going to end. This isn't going away, even if Nash stays here. The only thing that will be dropping will likely be his trade value as everyone knows, he has one of the few "Big time" contracts that actually goes up in price and he is 28 and isn't getting younger.

As much as I'd like to believe the demand would still be as great in a few weeks with the start of Free Agency, its best to get him moved now, before GM's start bring Free Agency to their front burner. Its the best time to get max return for him. If you can secure another early to mid first rounder tonight as part of the deal, all the better.

Get it done Howson, just get it done.

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06-22-2012, 08:38 AM
  #141
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How viable is the option of keeping Nash?

If it turns out the decision is to draft Yaupov, Nash on the Left and Yakupov on the right and Brass in the middle. Might work?

Second line of RJ-Johan-Atkinson, had quite a finish to the year

Not a bad top six.

Couple that with the improved blue line and all we would need is a goalie.

Incentive enough for him (Nash) to stay???

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06-22-2012, 08:41 AM
  #142
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I mean Zbad is regarded in the same light (maybe higher) as a Kreider for example.
Lehner is arguably one of the top 3 goalie prospect and certainly shined with his short stint with the big club.

***

It would just be dissapointing if Nash is pouting about being traded to Ottawa after Philly traded Carter here unconditionally and got a good return.
Carter didn't have a NMC during the time period he was traded. Nash has one. So, if he doesn't want to go to Ottawa, he ain't going.

Lehner shined in 5 games...kind of like Allen York shined here. In the AHL? He put up a pedestrian 0.907 save percentage. Zibanejad has 5 goals in the SEL in 26 games. Which would be about 16 in a full NHL season. Not exactly earth-shattering. Unlike Kreider, his 1 point in 9 NHL games didn't exactly shout "I am here!"

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06-22-2012, 08:43 AM
  #143
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And there will be some that will be unhappy no matter what he does.

And there will be some that will want to wait and see.

And there will be some that like parts and not others.

Kind of like usual.
I knew I was right.

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06-22-2012, 08:44 AM
  #144
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We're assuming that the offer was in fact Zibanejad, Bishop, Foligno, and the 1st. I'm not operating on that assumption. Ottawa doesn't have much system depth in goal; they basically have Anderson, Lehner, and Bishop...and that's all. Nothing else. That in itself makes me wonder how much validity there is to it, and how much is simply people saying, "Columbus needs a goalie. Therefore, Lehner or Bishop must be leaving."
It's widely known and speculated the sens are going to draft a goalie in the draft.. be it their 1st (if they still have it) or with one of their 3rds. We brought in almost every top goalie prospects in for interviews etc. So it might ease the stress of trading one of Bishop/Lehner away.

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Carter didn't have a NMC during the time period he was traded. Nash has one. So, if he doesn't want to go to Ottawa, he ain't going.

Lehner shined in 5 games...kind of like Allen York shined here. In the AHL? He put up a pedestrian 0.907 save percentage. Zibanejad has 5 goals in the SEL in 26 games. Which would be about 16 in a full NHL season. Not exactly earth-shattering. Unlike Kreider, his 1 point in 9 NHL games didn't exactly shout "I am here!"
Glad you forgot to mention he carried the B-Sens on his back to a Calder Cup Championship and playoff MVP.

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06-22-2012, 08:48 AM
  #145
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Carter didn't have a NMC during the time period he was traded. Nash has one. So, if he doesn't want to go to Ottawa, he ain't going.

Lehner shined in 5 games...kind of like Allen York shined here. In the AHL? He put up a pedestrian 0.907 save percentage. Zibanejad has 5 goals in the SEL in 26 games. Which would be about 16 in a full NHL season. Not exactly earth-shattering. Unlike Kreider, his 1 point in 9 NHL games didn't exactly shout "I am here!"
These are all things I know: And fair points.

My counter would be:

Nash is doing the same thing (NTC or not): One pre trade one post trade.
Kreider is 2 years older (big difference physically at that age)
Lehner was on a crappy minor league team (makes a huge difference)

I get your stance though...perfectly fine.

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06-22-2012, 08:55 AM
  #146
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Glad you forgot to mention he carried the B-Sens on his back to a Calder Cup Championship and playoff MVP.
By that logic, I suppose we should be looking into Michael Neuvirth as well?

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06-22-2012, 08:58 AM
  #147
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How viable is the option of keeping Nash?
Since Nash asked for the trade, long-termwise (is that a word?), I'd say its virtually zero chance.

Nash knew the CBJ would be getting a very high pick when he made the request, he knew changes were likely going to be made to the on-ice product and some coaching positions, and he still made it.

If what we are led to believe is true, he has no interest in waiting for the organization to "get it right" any longer. As I said in my last post, The media already has this, this will be a topic of discussion until he's gone, whether either party (Organization or Nash's Camp) wants it to be or not. Nash doesn't want to constantly answer questions about this or avoid questions about this. I'm sure Howson and Co. would rather go through root canals then have to continue to talk about this think he's going to get a reprieve from this fromt the STH'er calls and meetings either? Not likely....

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06-22-2012, 09:00 AM
  #148
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Lehner shined in 5 games...kind of like Allen York shined here. In the AHL? He put up a pedestrian 0.907 save percentage. Zibanejad has 5 goals in the SEL in 26 games. Which would be about 16 in a full NHL season. Not exactly earth-shattering. Unlike Kreider, his 1 point in 9 NHL games didn't exactly shout "I am here!"
Hell, more NHL experience than Mark Dekanich.....

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06-22-2012, 09:04 AM
  #149
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Since Nash asked for the trade, long-termwise (is that a word?), I'd say its virtually zero chance.

Nash knew the CBJ would be getting a very high pick when he made the request, he knew changes were likely going to be made to the on-ice product and some coaching positions, and he still made it.

If what we are led to believe is true, he has no interest in waiting for the organization to "get it right" any longer. As I said in my last post, The media already has this, this will be a topic of discussion until he's gone, whether either party (Organization or Nash's Camp) wants it to be or not. Nash doesn't want to constantly answer questions about this or avoid questions about this. I'm sure Howson and Co. would rather go through root canals then have to continue to talk about this.
You may be right...

... but I think it could be done.

It would take some pretty slick PR work, some crow eating, some serious man up work ...

But you're probably right.




You don't always get what you want...

... let's hope we get what we need.

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06-22-2012, 09:06 AM
  #150
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By that logic, I suppose we should be looking into Michael Neuvirth as well?
Robin Lehner is 20 yrs old... has shown at every level of play he's an elite goalie in the making.. dominated in Sweden.. didn't skip a beat on a terrible Soo Grey Hounds OHL Club.. went to the AHL took over the starting job near the end of the season and carried the team to an AHL Championship. This year his stats may not be the greatest (yet still respectable... but there's only so much a goalie can do on a terrible Binghamton team this year. Every opportunity he's been given to play the the Big club he's shown flashes of why people peg him as a future starting goalie (.935 svp% in 5 gms this year). These types of prospects don't grow on trees.

As for Neuvirth... I think he'd be leaps and bounds better then the goalies you have now... but he definitely doesn't have as much upside as Lehner and he's also 4yrs older.

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