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Messier vs. Trottier

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Old
12-27-2004, 01:44 PM
  #1
Lost Kangaroo
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Messier vs. Trottier

This debate poped up accidentaly with a friend of mine. It started with my statement that Mess wasnt the best captain in the game anymore. This caused my neo-messier fan buddy to freak out. I only said this because he hasnt led a team to the playoffs in 7 years, I think Yzerman is probably the best captain in hockey today. So the guy was so upset that I decided to egg him on and state that Trottier was a better player than Messier and the kid went through the roof. I was kidding when I said it, but when I looked at the numbers I started thinking, there isnt that large of a difference there. Both won 6 cups, both won a Smyth in their teams first cup, Trotts has a Ross, a Hart, and won the Calder. Mess has 2 Harts, no Ross, but he has a Lester B, Pearson. Mess also lost out on the Calder to Bourque.
Mess was a better leader, and I feel Trotts was a more complete player, better deffensivly (NHL +/- leader 1979) and was better on face-offs.

So what is everbodys opinion, Im not really stating that Trotts was better, more just trying to make the point that Mess wasn't 100 times better then Trotts as stated by my Buddy.

We won't even get into his opinion on the Leetch, Potvin debate, cause that one aint even worth arguing.

Happy New year to all

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12-27-2004, 01:53 PM
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Rob Paxon
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I'll take Trottier.

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12-27-2004, 02:00 PM
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Psycho Papa Joe
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Messier, if only because he maintained a high level of super star type of play for longer than Trottier, but I agree, at his peak, Trots was likely a better all round player.

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12-27-2004, 02:02 PM
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Lost Kangaroo
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Oh yeah, I would also like to point out thet for the first 8 years of Messiers career, he played behind Gretzky. This means he saw the opposing teams second Deffense pairings and was free of their top checkers who were also concentrating on Gretzky. Trotts was always the marked man on the Island.

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12-27-2004, 02:12 PM
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Messier for me. Just a great all around player who had a lot of balls and loved the limelight.

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12-27-2004, 02:28 PM
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I agree with Psycho Joe. At his peak, Trottier was a better player than Messier at his peak. But, Messier was productive for a longer period of time.

Two of the all time greats.

Incidently, I think that, under different circumstances, Darryl Sittler could have put up numbers on par with those two guys and played and equally strong two-way game.

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12-27-2004, 02:30 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Kangaroo
Oh yeah, I would also like to point out thet for the first 8 years of Messiers career, he played behind Gretzky. This means he saw the opposing teams second Deffense pairings and was free of their top checkers who were also concentrating on Gretzky. Trotts was always the marked man on the Island.
Disagree. Those Isles teams had high powered offense on every line. Trottier had centers like Brent Sutter, Butch Goring, Pat Lafontaine behind him. Some of the Isles higher scoring wingers (Bourne, Tonelli, Harris) also played center ice on a regular basis.

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12-27-2004, 02:32 PM
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I'd rather have Trottier on my team, because I've already had the Messier experience, and I don't want it back.

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Old
12-27-2004, 02:32 PM
  #9
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Mark Douglas Messier

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Old
12-27-2004, 03:10 PM
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I'd take Messier

Mark Messier averaged 86 points a year starting in year 13 ending in year 18

Trotts averaged 37 points a year during his years 13 thru 18

Additionally, Messier's numbers are skewerd because the shortened 94-95 season and still had that average.


But it's not all in the numbers. Both players were solid in the defensive ends of the ice, but where Messier gets the edge for me, is in Physical play. That element of his game helped him dominate playoff series like I've never seen before. What he did against Chicago while with Edmonton was not human like. If I'm not mistaken, he pretty much did that on a bum knee to boot?

As for his time in NY, in 96-97, the playoff series against the Devils where he cross-checked Doug Gilmour in the forehead in front of the Devils bench pretty much helped establish the physical dominance in that series and after an opening game loss, the Rangers swpet the Devils out of the PO's. And that was at the end of his physical dominance because in the very next series, Eric Lindros pretty much man-handled Mark.

As a Rangers Fan, I really didn't like Trotts and couldn't understand why he was not as targeted as guys like Bossy, Gillies, Nystrom, Smith and Potvin were and the answer was that he was a quiet player that just went about making my life miserable by killing the Rangers, but never being a standout like the others. Bossy was the lanky fellow that needed an egg sandwich, Gillies and Nystrom, I know a few guys that would go out to bars all night looking to find those two after playing in the garden. Potivn, the mistaken belief that his check on Kent was dirty, and Smith because he was just a royal plick. But Trotts never invoked feelings of hatred or anger from alot of Rangers fans, I was one of the few that absolutely despised him, and I guess that's the biggest compliment that an fan can bestow on an opposing player.

Still, I would take Messier, because as much as I hated Trotts, I hated Messier more.

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12-27-2004, 03:10 PM
  #11
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Prime for prime... Trots.

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Old
12-27-2004, 04:17 PM
  #12
Broadway Brett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Kangaroo
This debate poped up accidentaly with a friend of mine. It started with my statement that Mess wasnt the best captain in the game anymore. This caused my neo-messier fan buddy to freak out. I only said this because he hasnt led a team to the playoffs in 7 years, I think Yzerman is probably the best captain in hockey today. So the guy was so upset that I decided to egg him on and state that Trottier was a better player than Messier and the kid went through the roof. I was kidding when I said it, but when I looked at the numbers I started thinking, there isnt that large of a difference there. Both won 6 cups, both won a Smyth in their teams first cup, Trotts has a Ross, a Hart, and won the Calder. Mess has 2 Harts, no Ross, but he has a Lester B, Pearson. Mess also lost out on the Calder to Bourque.
Mess was a better leader, and I feel Trotts was a more complete player, better deffensivly (NHL +/- leader 1979) and was better on face-offs.

So what is everbodys opinion, Im not really stating that Trotts was better, more just trying to make the point that Mess wasn't 100 times better then Trotts as stated by my Buddy.

We won't even get into his opinion on the Leetch, Potvin debate, cause that one aint even worth arguing.

Happy New year to all
I'll take Mess and I would take Leetch Vs. Potvin.

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12-27-2004, 04:42 PM
  #13
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Overall career, I take Mess. In their primes, I'll take Trots.

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12-27-2004, 04:56 PM
  #14
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1,887 points (and counting?).

But some people say total points dont count.

So, lets look at where it counts. in the post season:

PLAYOFF POINTS
MESSIER: Games: 236 Points: 295 PPG AVG: 1.25
TROTS: Games: 221 Points: 184 PPG AVG: 0.83

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Old
12-27-2004, 05:19 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Crosby
I'll take Mess and I would take Leetch Vs. Potvin.

.. and you would be wrong there ...

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Old
12-27-2004, 05:40 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
.. and you would be wrong there ...
Your insightful reasoning made me completely change my mind.

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12-27-2004, 05:41 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Crosby
I'll take Mess and I would take Leetch Vs. Potvin.
:lol

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Old
12-27-2004, 05:50 PM
  #18
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Messier v. Trottier is a great hockey debate. Sorry, but those here who had the pleasure of watching the greatness of Trottier and Messier night after night, year after year recognize that stats mean little in this conversation. Both warriors in the truest hockey sense. Both mean SOBs who would go through you or (especially Messier's case) fly right by you. Both leaders, both champions, repeatedly.

(As for Leetch v. Potvin, I have to agree with those who side with Potvin, decisively. Brian Leetch is a GREAT player, a certain hall of famer. Denis Potvin combined the offensive prowess of Leetch with the toughness of Scott Stevens.)

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12-27-2004, 06:31 PM
  #19
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Interesting debate. I'll go with Messier for three reasons:

1. Trottier was blessed with better linemates.

2. While Trottier was a tough nut, he didn't impose his will on a game physically as Messier did; Trottier was a smart, savvy player (even as a young man, Trottier was a very smart player), and Messier was a gifted athlete with an equal mix of passion and desire. Mark Messier is a little crazy, and that gives him an edge.

3. Twice in his career, Mark Messier imposed his will and led a team to a Cup. In a game in Chicago with the Oilers down in their 1990 series Messier had the game of his life. He did about the same thing with the Rangers four years later.

Trottier's wonderful career came partly due to the tremendous players who joined him on the ice (Bossy, Gillies). Messier's best linemates were Glenn Anderson, a kamikazee who often hindered as much as helped, and Craig Simpson. Don't think there's much comparison there.

One of the things that I find interesting is that people stop at a certain point in these debates. If I say I would rather have Messier, Lemieux or Trottier on my team than 99, who's with me?

Not very many, but imo you can make a strong point for each of those three players contributing to team wins at both ends. They're all great, don't get me wrong. But I'll take the kid from Quebec and the two westerners before the breathtaking offensive talent.

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Old
12-28-2004, 12:21 PM
  #20
The mitchrock
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Tough call. Will give a slight edge to Messier.

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Old
12-28-2004, 02:20 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowetide
One of the things that I find interesting is that people stop at a certain point in these debates. If I say I would rather have Messier, Lemieux or Trottier on my team than 99, who's with me?

Not very many, but imo you can make a strong point for each of those three players contributing to team wins at both ends. They're all great, don't get me wrong. But I'll take the kid from Quebec and the two westerners before the breathtaking offensive talent.
Great post! Love these types of threads! Agree with you on the Messier vs Trottier issue, just based on passion/crazy factor that Mess brought to the game.

I would also be in minority with you that if I'm a GM, I'd rather have Mess (or Trottier) on my team over Gretzky (or Lemieux). Give me the physical two way player with elite level skills over the superstar offense only player (no offense to TGO or Mario).

Messier takes a hell of a lot of flack around here for sticking around too long, but IMO he is absolutely amazing for being able to contribute at his age. He can't dominate the game the way he did 10 years ago, but I think you could make a pretty good case that Mess was one of the best third line player in the league last year. Mess's style of play doesn't lend itself to aging gracefully in the NHL.

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12-28-2004, 02:27 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
Great post! Love these types of threads! Agree with you on the Messier vs Trottier issue, just based on passion/crazy factor that Mess brought to the game.

I would also be in minority with you that if I'm a GM, I'd rather have Mess (or Trottier) on my team over Gretzky (or Lemieux). Give me the physical two way player with elite level skills over the superstar offense only player (no offense to TGO or Mario).

Messier takes a hell of a lot of flack around here for sticking around too long, but IMO he is absolutely amazing for being able to contribute at his age. He can't dominate the game the way he did 10 years ago, but I think you could make a pretty good case that Mess was one of the best third line player in the league last year. Mess's style of play doesn't lend itself to aging gracefully in the NHL.
I'd disagree with you in both areas. Yes, Trottier and Messier brought things to the table than Gretzky never did, and they were certainly more well-rounded players than Gretzky ever was.

What Gretzky did bring however was sheer dominance than Messier/Trottier/Clarke never brought.

Gretzky scared the hell out of other teams at all times, including while being shorthanded.

Give me the guy that contributes 250 goals and gives up 60, as opposed to the guy that contributes 150 goals and gives up 30.

Also regarding Messier as one of the games better 3rd line players, I don't see it at all. He has never chanegd his game ala Yzerman or Trottier, to become more defensive as he's gotten older. While Messier can still contribute some offensively, he's a major liability defensively, still thinks offense first, and no longer provides any kind of physical presence.

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Old
12-28-2004, 03:11 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I'd disagree with you in both areas. Yes, Trottier and Messier brought things to the table than Gretzky never did, and they were certainly more well-rounded players than Gretzky ever was.

What Gretzky did bring however was sheer dominance than Messier/Trottier/Clarke never brought.

Gretzky scared the hell out of other teams at all times, including while being shorthanded.

Give me the guy that contributes 250 goals and gives up 60, as opposed to the guy that contributes 150 goals and gives up 30.

Also regarding Messier as one of the games better 3rd line players, I don't see it at all. He has never chanegd his game ala Yzerman or Trottier, to become more defensive as he's gotten older. While Messier can still contribute some offensively, he's a major liability defensively, still thinks offense first, and no longer provides any kind of physical presence.
I can't deny that TGO (or Mario) are easier choices. It's a matter of personal preference.

If Messier was so bad defensively last year, how did he end up a positive +/- player on a REALLY bad Rangers team? Mess had 43 points with 38 of the coming at even strength. He pretty much revived Simon & Barnaby's career, with both of them rebounding HUGELY over past disappointing seasons.

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Old
12-28-2004, 04:16 PM
  #24
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Trots easily. Messier has been a frickin' cancer to his teams for the past seven years. One of the most over-rated players in *history*.

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12-28-2004, 04:18 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by PecaFan
Trots easily. Messier has been a frickin' cancer to his teams for the past seven years. One of the most over-rated players in *history*.
Pathetic!!!

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