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Third Most Dominant Player Of The 1980's

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Old
06-23-2012, 03:04 AM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I'd go with Bourque and two stats support this:

He's behind only Gretzky with 113 Point Shares and an adjusted plus-minus of +356 for the decade '80-89.
Eh... Bourque is a solid choice, but point shares is a worthless pseudo-stat and adjusted plus minus needs context


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06-23-2012, 03:11 AM
  #27
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Peak? Patrick Roy.

Overall value in the 80s (since Roy missed the first half of the decade?) Paul Coffey or Raymond Bourque
Coffey couldn't hold Bourque's jock strap.

Coffey was a defensive nightmare who played almost his entire career with Gretzky and Lemieux. Bourque would have put up similar numbers in Coffey's situation while being an elite defender.

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06-23-2012, 05:21 AM
  #28
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Being a Nordiques fan, I have to go with Peter Šťastný.

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06-23-2012, 06:24 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Coffey couldn't hold Bourque's jock strap.

Coffey was a defensive nightmare who played almost his entire career with Gretzky and Lemieux. Bourque would have put up similar numbers in Coffey's situation while being an elite defender.
Bourque would likely not have put up the numbers Coffey did. Coffey was flat out better offensively then Bourque. Also I don't think he was a nightmare defensively but he wasn't close to Bourque on defence obviously.

Sure Coffey played with Gretzky and Mario, but he was insanely dominant. He was, in his 20's the best skater by far in the NHL. He was a HUGE part of Gretzky and Mario's successes, Gretzky far more then Mario. Of all the 160+ point seasons Coffey was on Mario or Gretzky's teams in all but 1 of them I think. There is a reason for that, and it wasn't just luck in Coffey being with 66 or 99 at the right times in their careers.

He finished 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th in points in seasons in the 80's as a defenceman. In 1986 he was 7th in goals and set the defence record for defencemen with 48.

From 1982 (his second season) to 1989 he played in 579 games and got 817 points. Over 8 seasons he averaged in an 80 game season 112 points. That was his level of production from age 20 to 27 from 1982-1989, as a defenceman. Sure he played with Gretzky for 6 of those seasons and Mario for 2 of them, but that is just sick production. Plus he got 111 playoff points in those 8 seasons and 3 Stanley Cups.

Bourque is far better overall, and ranks higher on my defenceman list for career. But if you want to know the 3rd most DOMINANT player of the 80's I'll pick Coffey. If I picked the second best player on the Gretzky-era Oilers I'll pick Coffey over Messier or Kurri. That is the 80-88 era Oilers. Overall Messier topped him after Gretzky left Edmonton but while all the best were on the Oilers, Coffey was the second best, the second most important, the second most dominant, the second most unique.

Also I'll take Coffey as just the FREAK of the time after 99 and 66. He defies comparision, except to Orr. Bourque was perfect, and he played defence perfectly in a more traditional way. 66 and 99 were just different, outliers, that were entirely unique and utterly masterful. Coffey was the other player of the 80's that would get that kind of description. He was a 4th forward sometimes, he was as responsible or MORE then Gretzky for the NHL changing the rules on 4-4 for coincidental minors along with Gretzky.

I guess it upsets me when people say terribly negative things about Coffey. Was he perfect in all aspects of the game? No. Was he was brilliant as Potvin or Bourque or Lidstrom overall? No. But if you make terrible scathing criticisms like he was terrible defensively, you just don't get it. It is as dumb as criticizing Gretzky for not fighting or Mario for not back checking. Coffey was absoutely brilliant at what he did. And he did EXACTLY what he should have done with his talents. He was one of the most exciting players to watch play EVER. He was lucky to play with two of the best players ever, but he was and would have been brilliant regardless of who he played with. Maybe too many posters here are young and saw a horrible version of Coffey after he left Detroit and kept playing for a few more years? I don't know. Coffey was a winner. He was brilliant and he was not terrible defensively. He didn't concentrate on defence, UNLESS HE NEEDED TO. Like in the playoffs in close series, at the end of close games. He made defensive plays no one else could make. The Oilers, or many other teams in the 80's in the Western Conference didn't play like teams do now. Get a small lead and sit on it. They kept pushing to score all the time. Coffey was supposed to score goals and set up goals and gain possession of the puck and keep it or pass it. He did that all game long. He wasn't supposed to block shots or play a safe game. It would have been stupid to waste his talents in trying to play a typical defenceman's game. That was for his pairing partner. It isn't a weakness of Coffey, he wasn't typical. Those that criticize him defensively seem not to understand his purpose.

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06-23-2012, 06:30 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Bourque would likely not have put up the numbers Coffey did. Coffey was flat out better offensively then Bourque. Also I don't think he was a nightmare defensively but he wasn't close to Bourque on defence obviously.

Sure Coffey played with Gretzky and Mario, but he was insanely dominant. He was, in his 20's the best skater by far in the NHL. He was a HUGE part of Gretzky and Mario's successes, Gretzky far more then Mario. Of all the 160+ point seasons Coffey was on Mario or Gretzky's teams in all but 1 of them I think. There is a reason for that, and it wasn't just luck in Coffey being with 66 or 99 at the right times in their careers.

He finished 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th in points in seasons in the 80's as a defenceman. In 1986 he was 7th in goals and set the defence record for defencemen with 48.

From 1982 (his second season) to 1989 he played in 579 games and got 817 points. Over 8 seasons he averaged in an 80 game season 112 points. That was his level of production from age 20 to 27 from 1982-1989, as a defenceman. Sure he played with Gretzky for 6 of those seasons and Mario for 2 of them, but that is just sick production. Plus he got 111 playoff points in those 8 seasons and 3 Stanley Cups.

Bourque is far better overall, and ranks higher on my defenceman list for career. But if you want to know the 3rd most DOMINANT player of the 80's I'll pick Coffey. If I picked the second best player on the Gretzky-era Oilers I'll pick Coffey over Messier or Kurri. That is the 80-88 era Oilers. Overall Messier topped him after Gretzky left Edmonton but while all the best were on the Oilers, Coffey was the second best, the second most important, the second most dominant, the second most unique.

Also I'll take Coffey as just the FREAK of the time after 99 and 66. He defies comparision, except to Orr. Bourque was perfect, and he played defence perfectly in a more traditional way. 66 and 99 were just different, outliers, that were entirely unique and utterly masterful. Coffey was the other player of the 80's that would get that kind of description. He was a 4th forward sometimes, he was as responsible or MORE then Gretzky for the NHL changing the rules on 4-4 for coincidental minors along with Gretzky.

I guess it upsets me when people say terribly negative things about Coffey. Was he perfect in all aspects of the game? No. Was he was brilliant as Potvin or Bourque or Lidstrom overall? No. But if you make terrible scathing criticisms like he was terrible defensively, you just don't get it. It is as dumb as criticizing Gretzky for not fighting or Mario for not back checking. Coffey was absoutely brilliant at what he did. And he did EXACTLY what he should have done with his talents. He was one of the most exciting players to watch play EVER. He was lucky to play with two of the best players ever, but he was and would have been brilliant regardless of who he played with. Maybe too many posters here are young and saw a horrible version of Coffey after he left Detroit and kept playing for a few more years? I don't know. Coffey was a winner. He was brilliant and he was not terrible defensively. He didn't concentrate on defence, UNLESS HE NEEDED TO. Like in the playoffs in close series, at the end of close games. He made defensive plays no one else could make. The Oilers, or many other teams in the 80's in the Western Conference didn't play like teams do now. Get a small lead and sit on it. They kept pushing to score all the time. Coffey was supposed to score goals and set up goals and gain possession of the puck and keep it or pass it. He did that all game long. He wasn't supposed to block shots or play a safe game. It would have been stupid to waste his talents in trying to play a typical defenceman's game. That was for his pairing partner. It isn't a weakness of Coffey, he wasn't typical. Those that criticize him defensively seem not to understand his purpose.
Great post.. one of the things people seemingly fail to understand about Coffey a lot of the time is how unique he is as a player.

His speed was overpowering, and while he didn't play defense traditionally as you said, he is no where near as bad defensively as he is constantly protrayed long after the fact on hfboards.

Again, as you said, he also picked up his defensive game when it was important but most of the time Glen Sather told him to do what he did best -- start the attack or trail the attack and do damage offensively.

Coffey is a good pick in this discussion (as are some others mentioned).

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Old
06-23-2012, 09:24 AM
  #31
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Not saying that this is the best way to determine the answer, but I just did a quick tally of Hart voting in the 80s, removing Gretzky and Lemieux, and counting the top five vote-getters in each season. Giving them 5 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd, etc.

1. Rod Langway ----11
1. Bryan Trottier ---11
3. Mike Bossy ------10
3. Dale Hawerchuk--10
3. Mike Liut --------10
6. Steve Yzerman -9.5
7. Ray Bourque -----9
7. Marcel Dionne ----9
9. Mark Howe -------7.5
10. Denis Savard ----7

When you add playoff performance to this, it would put Trottier and Bossy clearly ahead of the rest. But if you're talking about consistent high-level play throughout the entire decade, I'd have to go with Ray Bourque.

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06-23-2012, 10:33 AM
  #32
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Mike Liut????? lol.

Thanks for doing that list, though. Great idea, and some big surprises for me

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06-23-2012, 05:58 PM
  #33
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1980s? Stats aren't everything...
Gretzky
Lemieux
Messier
Bossy
Roy

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06-23-2012, 08:08 PM
  #34
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Bossy, pretty easily.

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06-23-2012, 08:25 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Not saying that this is the best way to determine the answer, but I just did a quick tally of Hart voting in the 80s, removing Gretzky and Lemieux, and counting the top five vote-getters in each season. Giving them 5 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd, etc.

1. Rod Langway ----11
1. Bryan Trottier ---11
3. Mike Bossy ------10
3. Dale Hawerchuk--10
3. Mike Liut --------10
6. Steve Yzerman -9.5
7. Ray Bourque -----9
7. Marcel Dionne ----9
9. Mark Howe -------7.5
10. Denis Savard ----7

When you add playoff performance to this, it would put Trottier and Bossy clearly ahead of the rest. But if you're talking about consistent high-level play throughout the entire decade, I'd have to go with Ray Bourque.
Interesting metric. Just for comparison's sake, I'll look at Norris records during the decade, since someone like Paul Coffey wasn't going to get Hart votes playing with Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux.

Here it is by Norris votes (using the same system you used - Giving them 5 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd, etc.).

1. Raymond Bourque ---- 32
2. Paul Coffey ---------- 23
3. Rod Langway -------- 15
4. Larry Robinson ------- 14
5. Mark Howe ---------- 13
6. Doug Wilson ---------- 9
7. Denis Potvin ---------- 6
8. Randy Carlyle --------- 5
8. Chris Chelios ---------- 5
8. Scott Stevens -------- 5

I think there is an argument for Coffey over Bourque if you put a very high emphasis on playoffs.

Note that I'm using 1979-80 to 1988-89 which cuts off Bourque's Hart-calibre season in 1989-90

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06-24-2012, 09:39 PM
  #36
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Stastny because his situation was harder than most.

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06-24-2012, 10:05 PM
  #37
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Bossy without Trottier ?
Trottier put up 97 points as an NHL rookie (an NHL record, with Billy Harris and Clark Gillies as his linemates), 2 years before Bossy came into the NHL.

Trottier is not my guy for the 80's but he was arguably the 2nd best NHL'er for more than a few seasons during his NHL career. At 1 point Sports Illuatrated (I know, I know, what do they know) voted him the best player in the NHL when Gretzky was breaking NHL records.

Bossy or Statsny would be my choice in this thread, but I had to jump in here and point out that by no means was Trottier ever riding Bossy's coattails...
Those Isles teams are legendary because they had a few of the best players ever on them simultaneously (Potvin, Trottier and Bossy), not to mention an array of other exceptional players.

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06-25-2012, 04:08 AM
  #38
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I'd say Bourque. He was an elite all-star from day 1 of the 80s to day 3652. Messier started slower. Bossy missed the last few years. Trotter slowed down at the end. Potvin didn't make it to the end, either. Stastny has the numbers but I don't think he's quite there. Coffey wasn't as complete and Bourque got a headstart on him.

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06-25-2012, 10:11 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
I'd say Bourque. He was an elite all-star from day 1 of the 80s to day 3652. Messier started slower. Bossy missed the last few years. Trotter slowed down at the end. Potvin didn't make it to the end, either. Stastny has the numbers but I don't think he's quite there. Coffey wasn't as complete and Bourque got a headstart on him.
Basically this.

I don't understand the people saying Stastny, for starters. He has the 2nd most points of the 1980s, due to his age from 1980-1990. And.... what else? He wasn't even the 3rd-best forward of the 80s. Bossy, Kurri, Messier and Trottier would all be considered better, even if you consider what you said about them (the timing of those exact years being not 100% perfect)

being the best defenseman of a decade is much better than being the 4th-7th-best forward of a decade... unless it was a really weak era for defensemen. But it wasn't.

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07-21-2012, 01:02 PM
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I'd say Paul Coffey, Steve Yzerman, Ray Bourque, Pat LaFontaine, Mark Messier, Patrick Roy are all worth mentioning.

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07-21-2012, 03:52 PM
  #41
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Stastny or Bourque

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07-21-2012, 04:27 PM
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I'm not saying Denis Potvin.
But I come to think of him as in other threads here, he seemed to be looked upon as ahead of Trottier and Bossy in some key areas. (My impressions too are that he was a very dominant defenceman. Offensively not as much as Coffey, but defensively more so. I know he retired before the end of the decade, but he did win four Stanley Cups and he did score at least 19 points in each run.) I'm just wondering what people here think about Potvin..? Is he top-ten among the "most dominating" NHLers in the 1980s?


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07-21-2012, 05:28 PM
  #43
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Potvin's tough to pigeonhole into a decade, but I always think of him more as a guy who peaked in the late 70s than the 1980s

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07-21-2012, 08:05 PM
  #44
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07-21-2012, 08:36 PM
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With Makarov and Fetisov being as dominant as they were, it's amazing how low they are on the HF All Time Greats' list.

I'd put Makarov as #3. I love Bourque but I always felt he was a little overrated (Lidstrom's homer in me

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07-24-2012, 05:24 PM
  #46
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Ray Bourque.

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07-24-2012, 05:35 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Peak? Patrick Roy.

Overall value in the 80s (since Roy missed the first half of the decade?) Paul Coffey or Raymond Bourque
I was thinking Bourque myself after Peter Stastny.

Coffey had a weak 81 and a lot of his value is tied to being on the teams with the biggest stars of the decade.

You could have put Ray or Peter on any team and they would have excelled, Coffey I'm not so sure.

Hawerchuck or a motivated Kent Nilsson would have been great too and lets not forget Makarov

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07-24-2012, 05:37 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Supreme King View Post
Besides Gretzky's continued dominance of the 1980's and the emergence of Super Mario from the mid 80's to dominating the late 80's, who would be the third most dominant player?? From 1979-80 to 1988-89, which player would you pick and why?
Just nitpicking but technically the 80's should be 80-81-89-90 (ten completes a decade)

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07-24-2012, 05:48 PM
  #49
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Great post.. one of the things people seemingly fail to understand about Coffey a lot of the time is how unique he is as a player.

His speed was overpowering, and while he didn't play defense traditionally as you said, he is no where near as bad defensively as he is constantly protrayed long after the fact on hfboards.

Again, as you said, he also picked up his defensive game when it was important but most of the time Glen Sather told him to do what he did best -- start the attack or trail the attack and do damage offensively.

Coffey is a good pick in this discussion (as are some others mentioned).
Yes Coffey was unique but his situation was even more unique, playing on the "we will score more goals than you will Oilers" was the absolute perfect storm for his talents and the move to Pittsburg didn't cramp his style either.

The "Sens" in Sens rule seems to stand for sensitive when it comes to Coffey, he simply wasn't a very good defensive Dman and if he had played on my Canucks he would not be in this discussion period but rather down with the Phil Housley and Paul Reinhart types (albeit probably leading the pack).

Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin could be both things and complete Dmen, Coffey could not he didn't have the defensive chops to do so.

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07-24-2012, 06:00 PM
  #50
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Basically this.

I don't understand the people saying Stastny, for starters. He has the 2nd most points of the 1980s, due to his age from 1980-1990. And.... what else? He wasn't even the 3rd-best forward of the 80s. Bossy, Kurri, Messier and Trottier would all be considered better, even if you consider what you said about them (the timing of those exact years being not 100% perfect)

being the best defenseman of a decade is much better than being the 4th-7th-best forward of a decade... unless it was a really weak era for defensemen. But it wasn't.
I hear the argument for Ray, he's in my top 2 along with Peter but Peter was gritty and tough to play against and had very little support. Heck he made Jacques Richard into a 50 goal scorer and Goulet can thank Stastny for his HHOF entry.

Hawerchuck was more skilled than Stastny but Peters grit and edge give him the edge among forwards for the decade IMO.

R71 talks about team strength all of the time and the fact is that Boston was a periannl 100 plus point team in the alte 70's and dipped to a slightly better thasn .500 team for most of the 80's.

Stastny quite simply had more to do with the Nords success, as limited as it was than Bourque, who actually from time to time had supporting talent on his team as well.

Bourque and Stastny are close but I would take Peter for the decade.

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