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Staal Wars - Episode VI: The Return Might Be Suspect (Turns down 10 yr, $60M deal)

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Old
06-22-2012, 03:49 PM
  #201
zero8771
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
In 1972 my father bought a corvette for $4,500 cash. Brand new off the lot. Cool, I have $4,500, I am heading out to the local Chevy dealer for my brand new Corvette.
inflation is not the same as the cap

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06-22-2012, 03:50 PM
  #202
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inflation is not the same as the cap
Explain how the analogy fails to convey the principle?

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06-22-2012, 03:52 PM
  #203
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They aren't going to pay a lot. Not for a guaranteed on season. With Suter & Parise there would still be hope to resign them but with Staal it's sound more & more like a Hamhuis situation.
People pay all the time for deadline rentals, and most of the time they know they aren't sticking around the next year. The team that gets Staal has all season to convince him to stay. Plus there are teams out there that would take the risk to push for the playoffs.

Just because he may or may not want to go to Carolina, doesn't minimize his value for one full season of his services. Give him top line duties and top PP time as well as a good offer, and I guarantee you whoever gets him has a great chance at retaining him.

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06-22-2012, 03:53 PM
  #204
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I don't understand this. those players still are signed to contracts. They are still paid for several years past this one at this value. With this in mind, that means they are playing for a team for that price. I dont think that the cap increasing makes every players existing contract automatically a bargain
Then you don't understand how the cap and signing players works.

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06-22-2012, 03:56 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Then you don't understand how the cap and signing players works.
Ya, but on the othe rhand imo, Some team is going to get Horcoff'd. If the cap went up alot or not he's not a 6 or 7 m player either way. Jordan Staal is Keith Primieu(sp) without the physical edge.

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06-22-2012, 03:56 PM
  #206
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Didn't see this posted yet:

Quote:
Report: GM 'livid' after Staal rejects deal

Pittsburgh Penguins GM Ray Shero was "livid" after Jordan Staal rejected the Penguins' 10-year contract extension, according to Sportsnet's Louis Jean. The contract was reportedly worth about $60 million. Staal's agent said that his client "is not prepared to enter into a contract extension at this time." It would not be surprising if Staal was traded over the summer.

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06-22-2012, 03:57 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Explain how the analogy fails to convey the principle?
4500 no longer buys you a corvette. But looking at the salaries of comparable players who are playing RIGHT NOW. 6.3 million is still toews salary, that is exactly what he would make RIGHT NOW

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06-22-2012, 03:57 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
inflation is not the same as the cap
Free Agency is based on a market based system. That's how people like Ville Leino get 4.5M whenever they're worth a lot loss. It has to do with 4.5M being much less of a percentage of the cap, therefore being less of a risk for the team to make.

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06-22-2012, 03:57 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vujtek View Post
Didn't see this posted yet:
was posted earlier today in the other thread

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06-22-2012, 03:58 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
was posted earlier today in the other thread
Alright, sorry about that then. Too much Staal talk to be able to read it all.

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06-22-2012, 03:59 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
4500 no longer buys you a corvette. But looking at the salaries of comparable players who are playing RIGHT NOW. 6.3 million is still toews salary, that is exactly what he would make RIGHT NOW
So Jordan Staal RIGHT NOW makes $4M. Does that mean he should make $4M again on his next contract because that's still "Staal salary"?

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06-22-2012, 04:01 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Then you don't understand how the cap and signing players works.
no, i think you dont understand a few things:

1. The cap hasn't even officially gone up
2. There is a trickle up effect of the cap going up, not an instant jump of 10 percent. As the other players contracts go off the books, salaries will continue to grow. Until then, when teams can still trade and get these salaries, not all players worth magically goes up in proportion to the cap
3. new cba isnt even announced, could have a big impact

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06-22-2012, 04:01 PM
  #213
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the may have been asked and answered, but, My question is, How could Staal turn down a contract when he couldnt sign it until July 1 anyways? isnt that tampering? or are players allowed to negotiate but just cant sign until july 1st

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06-22-2012, 04:01 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Vujtek View Post
Didn't see this posted yet:
I hope he is livid and he takes the best offer on the table. Get this situation over with NOW. If what you get is a top ten pick and brodziak, whatever. You get a very good 3rd line center or wing a top 10 pick. The extra cash is free to use on a FA. I highly doubt we would have to overpay a free agent more than Staal at 6.

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06-22-2012, 04:02 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
4500 no longer buys you a corvette. But looking at the salaries of comparable players who are playing RIGHT NOW. 6.3 million is still toews salary, that is exactly what he would make RIGHT NOW
$6.3 million would not buy you a Toews right now if his contract were up in a year anymore than $4,500 would still buy you a corvette. Absent major injuries, $6.3 million will not buy you a Toews in two years when he is renogotiating his contract again. And it is all about 'inflation'. The analogy is spot on.

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06-22-2012, 04:03 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by bradshaw06 View Post
the may have been asked and answered, but, My question is, How could Staal turn down a contract when he couldnt sign it until July 1 anyways? isnt that tampering? or are players allowed to negotiate but just cant sign until july 1st
Nothing formal. As in ALL the x's and o's and it being on poaper. If i understand it right.

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06-22-2012, 04:04 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by bradshaw06 View Post
the may have been asked and answered, but, My question is, How could Staal turn down a contract when he couldnt sign it until July 1 anyways? isnt that tampering? or are players allowed to negotiate but just cant sign until july 1st
You can talk about a deal in general with your own player at any time, that is not tampering. Just can not sign one until July 1. Crosby and the Pens seem to have the perameters of a deal all worked out for instance given statements from both camps.

As an aside, thank God it is Staal who seems to want out and not Crosby or Malkin. Both of those seem like they want to be Pens for life.

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06-22-2012, 04:05 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
$6.3 million would not buy you a Toews right now if his contract were up in a year anymore than $4,500 would still buy you a corvette. Absent major injuries, $6.3 million will not buy you a Toews in two years when he is renogotiating his contract again. And it is all about 'inflation'. The analogy is spot on.
It won't buy you that because of an increase in value not because of inflation in NHL salaries (for the most part)

I agree that toews is worth more then 6.3. The same way I agree Staal is worth more than 4.

What I don't agree with is that the 6-6.5 million staal is worth based on his increase in value becomes 7.5+ just because the cap is likely going up 7 million

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06-22-2012, 04:05 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
$6.3 million would not buy you a Toews right now if his contract were up in a year anymore than $4,500 would still buy you a corvette. Absent major injuries, $6.3 million will not buy you a Toews in two years when he is renogotiating his contract again. And it is all about 'inflation'. The analogy is spot on.
No but 7 to 7.5 surely would. IMO. Staal is all about the cash and a bigger role. Those types of players you lose when you sign. Staal turned down a contract he's overpaid for IMO.

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06-22-2012, 04:05 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradshaw06 View Post
the may have been asked and answered, but, My question is, How could Staal turn down a contract when he couldnt sign it until July 1 anyways? isnt that tampering? or are players allowed to negotiate but just cant sign until july 1st
You can renegotiate a contract with one of your own players whenever you want to. It's when other teams try to negotiate before the deadline that it becomes illegal.

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06-22-2012, 04:07 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgd525 View Post
Nothing formal. As in ALL the x's and o's and it being on poaper. If i understand it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
You can talk about a deal in general with your own player at any time, that is not tampering. Just can not sign one until July 1. Crosby and the Pens seem to have the perameters of a deal all worked out for instance given statements from both camps.

As an aside, thank God it is Staal who seems to want out and not Crosby or Malkin. Both of those seem like they want to be Pens for life.
Ah, ok. Thanks guys. I was under the assumption that a deal couldnt be discussed until the 1st. The whole tampering thing is weird, considering how many guys sign minutes after theyre allowed to.

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06-22-2012, 04:08 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by mgd525 View Post
No but 7 to 7.5 surely would. IMO. Staal is all about the cash and a bigger role. Those types of players you lose when you sign. Staal turned down a contract he's overpaid for IMO.
Oh, I am not necessarily disagreeing on that point. I merely took issue with using contracts signed in 2009 or even 2007 as legit comparables to say 'see, look at what these players signed for.' The NHL's salary cap in 2007 was $50 million. That is a big difference from the reported $70 million next year and skews the comparison markedly.

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06-22-2012, 04:10 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Oh, I am not necessarily disagreeing on that point. I merely took issue with using contracts signed in 2009 or even 2007 as legit comparables to say 'see, look at what these players signed for.' The NHL's salary cap in 2007 was $50 million. That is a big difference from the reported $70 million next year and skews the comparison markedly.
i guess it all boils down to:

Anyteam that signs staal to more than 7 is overpaying imo

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06-22-2012, 04:11 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
i guess it all boils down to:

Anyteam that signs staal to more than 7 is overpaying imo

That is true. He is not currently worth $7M or anything close. However the market will still bear it. Especially since a bunch of teams need to spend up to the floor, guys like Staal are going to hit some paydays early. Although by the middle or end of that contract he might worth be the $7M. Right now his value is a lot closer to $5M.

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06-22-2012, 04:15 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by boardin087 View Post
i guess it all boils down to:

Anyteam that signs staal to more than 7 is overpaying imo
I agree. Partially. If he hits UFA status by its very nature, there are overpays more often than not, and $7 million per would be in line with what I would expect a UFA Staal to recieve. But that was not the part of your post that I disagreed with. I merely disagreed with using older contracts as comparables.

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