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The Offseason Thread Part IX: Howson often gives nuts to toothless people

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06-24-2012, 08:37 PM
  #976
Barbara Underhill
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I disagree about Murray. We can't afford to lose step, but a package w him a roster guy like AA or something plus a pick for Ryan is absolutely a hockey trade
In your eyes or Murray's? Stepan plus is what I already said it would take, I think Murray want's an overpayment right now though.

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06-24-2012, 08:38 PM
  #977
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I think he has put himself on a tighter leash sure, no one want's to repeat bad history. I just don't think he is afraid to improve this team via trade if that's what it takes. I mean he's been rumored in a lot of deals and has stuck to his guns about the kids. He wants to make a hockey deal, which isn't what Howson or Murray want right now.
Makes sense. I might be alone but I believe that Howson is close to pulling the trigger and is simply buying time until FA opens and will pull the trigger on the best deal once a player or two moves.

Perhaps something like Hagelin, Dubi and a first and maybe a 3rd in 2014?

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06-24-2012, 08:39 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
do u know how good our d would be with suter and how much better our offense would b with Ryan? Not sure anyone would beat a staal package. And only suter if we are to trade staal for Ryan. That's not just wanting new names. That's making this team a whole lot better lol
Suter isn't coming here. It's not because Staal is in his way or because Ryan isn't here. He isn't coming to New York CITY. He's not waiting for us to call, he just isn't coming here period.

And yeah, I do know how good our d would be... Something along the lines of this season, around #2 in goals against because of a solid top 4 and Lundqvist. And my version is at least $2m cheaper, and I'd spend that on a guy that plays the right, unlike Suter. Adding Suter and subtracting Staal doesn't help a lick towards the minutes played issue. It is about new names because the business and on ice end doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Dude Nash is better than Richards. Put Nash with those philly teams and he puts up a lot more than he is doing in Columbus. He's putting up 30+ with zero talent around him. He should bring back more than Richards
No, no he's not better than Richards. Richards puts up Nash level points, makes his linemates better, and can play any situation, any time of game, against any line. Winners win, losers lose. Jokinen put up his points and lost, regardless of how much or how little talent surrounded him. Richards started with the Flyers when they were a last place team. His GM isn't brain dead, so that is in his favor but the fact remains that his team won with his help. In 9 seasons, Nash can't say the same. Nash can't even say he won a playoff game.

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06-24-2012, 08:40 PM
  #979
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Makes sense. I might be alone but I believe that Howson is close to pulling the trigger and is simply buying time until FA opens and will pull the trigger on the best deal.

Perhaps something like Hagelin, Dubi and a first and maybe a 3rd in 2014?
This is what I think too, but he has already lost interest from several teams. Offers won't be nearly as good and I heard that San Jose turned down sending Couture to CBJ again today. So yeah I think he's in a tight spot, only thing I am concerned about is the Rangers probably don't get Parise which means Nash may be their only option left, which might give Howson a little leverage but I'm not entirely sure.

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06-24-2012, 08:40 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Dude Nash is better than Richards. Put Nash with those philly teams and he puts up a lot more than he is doing in Columbus. He's putting up 30+ with zero talent around him. He should bring back more than Richards
1 - You actually need to go look at Nash's stats.

2 - As for the "he needs to have better players around him" idea. That's purely speculative argument. Gabby's been around more gifted players on the Rangers than he was in Minny and his numbers look strikingly similar. And that's HOWSON'S FAULT (and the gm before him) if he didn't get good players around Nash to increase his value. He didn't and the numbers don't bare out, you can't just say, "Oh, he'll get more points on the Rangers." Yes, and if we trade you Artem Anisimov, he'll make the All-Star Team every year...

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06-24-2012, 08:41 PM
  #981
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I never said they were going to win with all home grown players. Re-read what I wrote.

I inferred that right now is not the right moment to make a big trade as the players everyone keeps talking about either don't want to be here or would be coming at a cost greater to the current team than their value.

So, it's not about gonads at all. It's about being smart.

The kings were able to make the Richards trade because they only lost 1 Roster player Wayne Simmonds, 1 prospect Schenn, and a 2nd round pick in this past draft (not a great draft at all).

The equivalent CBJ/NYR deal could be Dubinsky, one of JT Miller or Erixon and next year's first round. That's fair.

Dubi and Simmonds are close to a wash (Simmonds is much cheaper, but Dubi can play in every situation), Schenn may become better than Miller or Erixon, but a 1st (somewhere between #15-30) in next year's deeper draft is much better than a 2nd in this past year's draft (#60 pick).

Problem is, Howson wants for 4 or 5 players AND/OR Stepan, Kreider included.

I think we all agree we will need to obtain (trade, FA or develop) 2 more Top 6 forwards (one could be a Ray Whitney type, the other more elite) and 1 PPQB Defenseman to get to the next level.

But you can't go creating other, bigger holes, just to fill a need. I would not go trading Krieder or Stepan in either of these trades simply because we will back in the same spot we're already in - we'll still have just 4 top-6 forwards and we'll still be struggling to score.

Until other teams sees one of our prospects like Miller, Thomas, St. Croix, Fast as enough value, then there's probably not going to be a trade that works for us.

CBJ fan in peace:

One big hole in your proposed equivalent trade (based on Richards deal)

Braden Schenn was the TOP PROSPECT in Hockey: In what world in JT Miller close to equivalent.....(crickets).....(tumbleweeds)....(pi ns drop)......

Now if Kreider is subbed for Miller your deal has more crediblity and one Howson would consider I'm sure.

We have hosted Lundsanity (a true gentleman) a bit on our board and I think he gets it. Whether the deal gets made or not, it's probably the way its gonna be if Nash goes to Broadway.

Kreider/Stepan + Dubi and probably 1st/prospect.

Not 5 pieces including McD, DZ, Stall, Kredier,Hagelin multiple picks,etc.

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06-24-2012, 08:42 PM
  #982
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Marc Staal is not going to leave the greatest city in the world to play in the dirty south.
I left NY and now live in the dirty south. Raleigh is really a great place to live.

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06-24-2012, 08:42 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Suter isn't coming here. It's not because Staal is in his way or because Ryan isn't here. He isn't coming to New York CITY. He's not waiting for us to call, he just isn't coming here period.

And yeah, I do know how good our d would be... Something along the lines of this season, around #2 in goals against because of a solid top 4 and Lundqvist. And my version is at least $2m cheaper, and I'd spend that on a guy that plays the right, unlike Suter. Adding Suter and subtracting Staal doesn't help a lick towards the minutes played issue. It is about new names because the business and on ice end doesn't make sense.



No, no he's not better than Richards. Richards puts up Nash level points, makes his linemates better, and can play any situation, any time of game, against any line. Winners win, losers lose. Jokinen put up his points and lost, regardless of how much or how little talent surrounded him. Richards started with the Flyers when they were a last place team. His GM isn't brain dead, so that is in his favor but the fact remains that his team won with his help. In 9 seasons, Nash can't say the same. Nash can't even say he won a playoff game.
If he is not better to u than Richards there is no point even discussing bringing him here. His talent is far better and he's played with a lot less talent. How many people were great and never won a cup? Ws? NBA championship? I can't stand that excuse

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06-24-2012, 08:45 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
CBJ fan in peace:

One big hole in your proposed equivalent trade (based on Richards deal)

Braden Schenn was the TOP PROSPECT in Hockey: In what world in JT Miller close to equivalent.....(crickets).....(tumbleweeds)....(pi ns drop)......

Now if Kreider is subbed for Miller your deal has more crediblity and one Howson would consider I'm sure.

We have hosted Lundsanity (a true gentleman) a bit on our board and I think he gets it. Whether the deal gets made or not, it's probably the way its gonna be if Nash goes to Broadway.

Kreider/Stepan + Dubi and probably 1st/prospect.

Not 5 pieces including McD, DZ, Stall, Kredier,Hagelin multiple picks,etc.

Nash and his 7.8 million cap will not be on Broadway. Especially if Stepan is involved in the deal, Sather will not trade Kreider, Stepan, Miller, Hagelin, these are young kids who we are trying to build the team with, why trade for an overpaid player whose numbers decreased over the years? No thanks. We made it to the ECF with no goal scoring, Nash will not fix the problem but 2-3 players will and we can get 2-3 good offensive players with 7.8 mil instead of using that on one guy.

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06-24-2012, 08:45 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
CBJ fan in peace:

One big hole in your proposed equivalent trade (based on Richards deal)

Braden Schenn was the TOP PROSPECT in Hockey: In what world in JT Miller close to equivalent.....(crickets).....(tumbleweeds)....(pi ns drop)......

Now if Kreider is subbed for Miller your deal has more crediblity and one Howson would consider I'm sure.

We have hosted Lundsanity (a true gentleman) a bit on our board and I think he gets it. Whether the deal gets made or not, it's probably the way its gonna be if Nash goes to Broadway.

Kreider/Stepan + Dubi and probably 1st/prospect.

Not 5 pieces including McD, DZ, Stall, Kredier,Hagelin multiple picks,etc.
yes, Phil actually gave up a good prospect and simmonds on la was pretty good and much more than a throw in

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06-24-2012, 08:48 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
Nash and his 7.8 million cap will not be on Broadway. Especially if Stepan is involved in the deal, Sather will not trade Kreider, Stepan, Miller, Hagelin, these are young kids who we are trying to build the team with, why trade for an overpaid player whose numbers decreased over the years? No thanks. We made it to the ECF with no goal scoring, Nash will not fix the problem but 2-3 players will and we can get 2-3 good offensive players with 7.8 mil instead of using that on one guy.
Nash is not gonna help the goal scoring problem? Say what?????

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06-24-2012, 08:50 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
CBJ fan in peace:

One big hole in your proposed equivalent trade (based on Richards deal)

Braden Schenn was the TOP PROSPECT in Hockey: In what world in JT Miller close to equivalent.....(crickets).....(tumbleweeds)....(pi ns drop)......

Now if Kreider is subbed for Miller your deal has more crediblity and one Howson would consider I'm sure.

We have hosted Lundsanity (a true gentleman) a bit on our board and I think he gets it. Whether the deal gets made or not, it's probably the way its gonna be if Nash goes to Broadway.

Kreider/Stepan + Dubi and probably 1st/prospect.

Not 5 pieces including McD, DZ, Stall, Kredier,Hagelin multiple picks,etc.
What I think you're failing to understand is that Richards at 25 years old and a cap hit of 5.75 is considerably more valuable than Nash at 28 with a cap hit of 7.8.

That's 2 million dollars you don't have to sign a player or two to fill out your roster. It forces you to go with more youth. Thus, losing Stepan or Kreider who are already on your roster and cheap become that much more important to retain. if we can't do the deal without step, kreider or mcdonagh, I just don't think it's in our best interest as an organization.

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06-24-2012, 08:50 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
CBJ fan in peace:

One big hole in your proposed equivalent trade (based on Richards deal)

Braden Schenn was the TOP PROSPECT in Hockey: In what world in JT Miller close to equivalent.....(crickets).....(tumbleweeds)....(pi ns drop)......

Now if Kreider is subbed for Miller your deal has more crediblity and one Howson would consider I'm sure.

We have hosted Lundsanity (a true gentleman) a bit on our board and I think he gets it. Whether the deal gets made or not, it's probably the way its gonna be if Nash goes to Broadway.

Kreider/Stepan + Dubi and probably 1st/prospect.

Not 5 pieces including McD, DZ, Stall, Kredier,Hagelin multiple picks,etc.
Kreider is never going to go in a Nash deal. Time to let that dream go.

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06-24-2012, 08:51 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
CBJ fan in peace:

One big hole in your proposed equivalent trade (based on Richards deal)

Braden Schenn was the TOP PROSPECT in Hockey: In what world in JT Miller close to equivalent.....(crickets).....(tumbleweeds)....(pi ns drop)......

Now if Kreider is subbed for Miller your deal has more crediblity and one Howson would consider I'm sure.

We have hosted Lundsanity (a true gentleman) a bit on our board and I think he gets it. Whether the deal gets made or not, it's probably the way its gonna be if Nash goes to Broadway.

Kreider/Stepan + Dubi and probably 1st/prospect.

Not 5 pieces including McD, DZ, Stall, Kredier,Hagelin multiple picks,etc.
Well, I guess Nash'll be staying right in Ohio, cause there's no chance in hell Sather trades Kreider or Stepan for a dude with yearly dwindling offensive production, and a massive cap hit nowhere near his actual talent.

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06-24-2012, 08:51 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
CBJ fan in peace:

One big hole in your proposed equivalent trade (based on Richards deal)

Braden Schenn was the TOP PROSPECT in Hockey: In what world in JT Miller close to equivalent.....(crickets).....(tumbleweeds)....(pi ns drop)......

Now if Kreider is subbed for Miller your deal has more crediblity and one Howson would consider I'm sure.

We have hosted Lundsanity (a true gentleman) a bit on our board and I think he gets it. Whether the deal gets made or not, it's probably the way its gonna be if Nash goes to Broadway.

Kreider/Stepan + Dubi and probably 1st/prospect.

Not 5 pieces including McD, DZ, Stall, Kredier,Hagelin multiple picks,etc.
Sorry, but the only roster player available for Nash is Dubi. Don't like it? Fine. Keep Nash. Should be fun to watch when things turn ugly.

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06-24-2012, 08:54 PM
  #991
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So basically u guys don't want Nash because u only want to give up dubi? Why have we been discussing this than and saying how dumb howson is? Cap hit regardless dubi at 4.2 hit is not getting u a goal scorer

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06-24-2012, 08:56 PM
  #992
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Nash is not gonna help the goal scoring problem? Say what?????


Nash WILL NOT help the scoring problem. He can disappear just like Gaborik on any given night so what makes you think we will be an offensive powerhouse when we don't even have an offensive system?? One player will not solve the scoring problems, this isn't NHL 12 where you sign a power forward and they score every game. I much rather sign Whitney, Doan and a bottom 6 guy and a vet dman before i go after Nash and his terrible contract. When Nash doesn show up, what do you do then?

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06-24-2012, 08:56 PM
  #993
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I left NY and now live in the dirty south. Raleigh is really a great place to live.
Clearly the poster you are quoting hasn't spent much, if any time in North Carolina.

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06-24-2012, 08:56 PM
  #994
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CBJ fan in peace:

One big hole in your proposed equivalent trade (based on Richards deal)

Braden Schenn was the TOP PROSPECT in Hockey: In what world in JT Miller close to equivalent.....(crickets).....(tumbleweeds)....(pi ns drop)......

Now if Kreider is subbed for Miller your deal has more crediblity and one Howson would consider I'm sure.

We have hosted Lundsanity (a true gentleman) a bit on our board and I think he gets it. Whether the deal gets made or not, it's probably the way its gonna be if Nash goes to Broadway.

Kreider/Stepan + Dubi and probably 1st/prospect.

Not 5 pieces including McD, DZ, Stall, Kredier,Hagelin multiple picks,etc.
Richards had a better cap and didn't demand a trade with a NMC.

Heatley, a 50 goal scorer, got Michalek on one knee and Cheechoo with that scenario. That breaks down to Dubinsky and Anisimov, and Ranger fans aren't even proposing something as horrendous as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
If he is not better to u than Richards there is no point even discussing bringing him here. His talent is far better and he's played with a lot less talent. How many people were great and never won a cup? Ws? NBA championship? I can't stand that excuse
A ton, like Gartner and nearly Bourque, Andreychuk and Weight.

But how long is that list win you lower the standard to a single playoff win? Nash is good and all, but less than elite guys make some lemonade out of lemons at least once in a decade. Nash sniffed the post season once win a rookie took a run at a Vezina.

Thing is, I'll bring Nash here. Sather's price in February made sense because a huge chunk of his cap was paid. He could fit on last year's squad and help us take a run at a cup. Howson's price would have cripple that effort. Now we're trying to take on the full $7.8m and the price is just as high? Nah, pass. Nash as a complimentary piece would be sick, real tough with that cap though.

Word is he's not even interested in Dubinsky, who is the one piece that could actually make the deal work financially if the CBA resembles the last one even slightly. It's not a fit right now between the GMs.

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06-24-2012, 08:57 PM
  #995
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Also last thing ill say on Nash bc ranger fans obv don't want him which is fine ur opinions. However, with dubi going back at 4.2, that's basically Nash costing us 3.6 for the next 3 years dubi is signed.

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06-24-2012, 08:57 PM
  #996
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If Nash was making 5 mil i would be all over it, but i still wouldn't include Kreider. Anybody who thinks Sather will trade our prospects is craxier than Howson.

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