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Old
07-05-2012, 11:12 PM
  #701
YuioIklo
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Voracek is not at his peak yet, just wait... the guy is 22. Sure, he's not Bobby Ryan, but that proposal was too much. I'd do Voracek + 1st+ Gus, but I would add Laughton. Or I would do Voracek + Laughton + Gus, whatever if they believe that next year's first is gonna be better or worse than Laughton. But Adding both a 1st and Laughton to Voracek is insane.

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07-06-2012, 08:33 AM
  #702
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Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
Voracek is not at his peak yet, just wait... the guy is 22. Sure, he's not Bobby Ryan, but that proposal was too much. I'd do Voracek + 1st+ Gus, but I would add Laughton. Or I would do Voracek + Laughton + Gus, whatever if they believe that next year's first is gonna be better or worse than Laughton. But Adding both a 1st and Laughton to Voracek is insane.
Nor is Bobby Ryan. I agree that the proposed deals may be a little much for Ryan, but I was more just talking about the person (not sure if it was you or not) that said he wouldn't even do Voracek for Ryan. That is just ridiculous.

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07-06-2012, 08:38 AM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Voracek is a rfa for 3 more years as he has already played 4 years so far.
Really? I thought I read somewhere that this was his last RFA contract. My bad.

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07-06-2012, 08:41 AM
  #704
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Nor is Bobby Ryan. I agree that the proposed deals may be a little much for Ryan, but I was more just talking about the person (not sure if it was you or not) that said he wouldn't even do Voracek for Ryan. That is just ridiculous.
I have to agree with you. I feel jake and Ryan are comparable players(mainly in point production and where they fit onion our lineup). If the offer is a straight up I don't see why both teams don't pull the trigger. Ur essentially swapping similar players. No gain no loss. Jake is good but he isn't better than bobby Ryan. At least not yet


My issue is piling on picks and prospects with no added return. I'll pass unless Anaheim makes it worth our while. All that for one player (which we arguably already have in jake) is insane

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07-06-2012, 08:41 AM
  #705
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Oh for the love of all things holy, now I've seen it all.

Its not about where they both are now, its where I think Jake might end up, and there are other factors that go into it like team continuity and whatnot. Obviously saying I'm not sure if I would trade Voracek for Ryan straight up was hyperbole (not being serious), just making the point that I don't want to sell the farm for Ryan and try to meet the Ducks' demands. But for a franchise that continually gives up on young players early before they develop, with a fan base that has no zero patience with players, I'm not surprised at everyone's reactions.

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07-06-2012, 08:43 AM
  #706
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Nor is Bobby Ryan. I agree that the proposed deals may be a little much for Ryan, but I was more just talking about the person (not sure if it was you or not) that said he wouldn't even do Voracek for Ryan. That is just ridiculous.
He's about as good offensively as he's ever going to be, he'll be 26 at the end of next year.

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07-06-2012, 08:46 AM
  #707
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The question is now are the Flyers not going to do any deals with Fedotenko or are they planning on making a move getting him to replace someone? The longer our own RFAs are unsigned the more I think they could be traded.

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07-06-2012, 08:49 AM
  #708
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Originally Posted by turkinaa View Post
The question is now are the Flyers not going to do any deals with Fedotenko or are they planning on making a move getting him to replace someone? The longer our own RFAs are unsigned the more I think they could be traded.

You mean deals involving Feds? Don't think so, they probably wanted to add a good depth defensive forward like him. I do agree with you that the longer players remain unsigned, the more it seems like a trade is in the works. Especially for Voracek, I'm thinking he might be involved in something.

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07-06-2012, 08:53 AM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Lockjaw333 View Post
Its not about where they both are now, its where I think Jake might end up, and there are other factors that go into it like team continuity and whatnot. Obviously not wanting to trade Voracek for Ryan straight up was hyperbole, just making the point that I don't want to sell the farm for Ryan. But for a franchise that continually gives up on young players early before they develop, with a fan base that has no patience, I'm not surprised at everyone's reactions.
Also, being
Yeah, Ryan is definitely the aging vet that reflects a win now mentality. Get off your high horse. It's not like we're making offers here for Jerome Iginla or some other 35 year old scorer.

At the end of the day, people that understand the sport recognize that 30 goals =/= 30 points. Goals are simply more valuable than assists any way you slice it. Furthermore, Voracek is young, but in 4 full seasons in the NHL he has shown remarkable consistency at the 50 point mark. Maybe he surges and gets to Ryan's career low of 57 points this season.

Ryan is a scorer. He has never been below a 13.5% shoot percentage... that's a career year for Voracek who has topped out at 10.4%.

I'm not suggesting that Voracek won't get better or that I'd do the deal as listed above (essentially Voracek, 2 first, and Gus), but let's not pretend that Ryan isn't at least moderately more talented than Voracek. It's the typical difference you see between a first line player and a second line player. Both valuable pieces, but one definitely moreso.

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07-06-2012, 09:01 AM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
He's about as good offensively as he's ever going to be, he'll be 26 at the end of next year.
Garbage. Jerome Iginla's best seasons were 26 through 33. Ryan and Iginla have nearly identical career shooting percentages. If Ryan were simply coached to shoot a lot more often, he'd top 40 goals. The stats are there to support that.

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07-06-2012, 09:29 AM
  #711
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I wouldnt go as far as suggesting that trading young players is an indication of giving up on them.

You have to trade assets for assets unfortunately.

In this case, if Ryan is obtained, it will require a couple lesser developed assets for one more complete asset. Simple as that.

I would like to bring in Ryan but not at the cost of Schenn or Voracek (or Couts) so I dont think it is possible as quantity vs quality wont get it done.

I like the way this team is shaping up and believe it's best years will start in about 2 seasons when Couts, Schenn and Voracek have further developed and matured, and Giroux will be entering his prime (Scary thought). By that time hopefully the d have been shored up a bit better.

I just dont like all these trade proposals that are trying to speed that up. The only deals that will speed that up is a d-man unless we are talking about giving up all our youth (Couts, Schenn, Laughton, Voracek, Simmonds) for players are at the current are only marginally better. Its a high cost for moderate improvement.

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07-06-2012, 09:35 AM
  #712
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Yeah, Ryan is definitely the aging vet that reflects a win now mentality. Get off your high horse. It's not like we're making offers here for Jerome Iginla or some other 35 year old scorer.

At the end of the day, people that understand the sport recognize that 30 goals =/= 30 points. Goals are simply more valuable than assists any way you slice it. Furthermore, Voracek is young, but in 4 full seasons in the NHL he has shown remarkable consistency at the 50 point mark. Maybe he surges and gets to Ryan's career low of 57 points this season.

Ryan is a scorer. He has never been below a 13.5% shoot percentage... that's a career year for Voracek who has topped out at 10.4%.

I'm not suggesting that Voracek won't get better or that I'd do the deal as listed above (essentially Voracek, 2 first, and Gus), but let's not pretend that Ryan isn't at least moderately more talented than Voracek. It's the typical difference you see between a first line player and a second line player. Both valuable pieces, but one definitely moreso.
This.

People are too afraid of change or taking a risk to admit that Ryan is better than Voracek. In fact, he'd quite clearly be the 2nd best forward on our team. Perhaps the 2nd best player in general.

People take Ryans career low and claim that Jake could potentially hit that next season, but neglect to mention the fact that Ryan is still just 25, is more talented than jake and will get better too.

If there's a move we can make for Ryan that doesn't involve schenn, giroux or couturier. You make it, period.

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07-06-2012, 09:36 AM
  #713
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Garbage. Jerome Iginla's best seasons were 26 through 33. Ryan and Iginla have nearly identical career shooting percentages. If Ryan were simply coached to shoot a lot more often, he'd top 40 goals. The stats are there to support that.
There's a lot more stats supporting the opposite.

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07-06-2012, 09:46 AM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Carter and Richard each got a top notch pick/prospect (#8 or Schenn), a 2nd/3rd line winger (Voracek/Simmonds) and 3nd/2rd pick. So the proposed trade is Voracek (2nd winger), Gus (a third rd pick value if Darrell Powe is a 3rd rd pick value) and Laughton and 1st rd pick. Laughton is no 8th overall or Schenn but Laughton + 1st is greater than or equal to the #8 or Schenn. So the value at best is equal for a winger who had less goals his last 4 years than Carter' last four years before the trade and less points than Richards last 4 years at the time of trade plus plays wing not center.
He said if you remove Gus you are giving up 3 first round picks which is greater than what we received, but I think that is simple way of looking at things. I don't see Laughton and a first being worth more than Schenn right now. Traditionally teams find less value in the 20ish range which is likely where our pick would be. Laughton right now projects to be a checking line center. I would take Schenn over Laughton and another first round pick in the bottom third of the first round.

I do ultimately agree he shouldn't be worth more than Carter and Richards but I am not sure this is much more.

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07-06-2012, 09:46 AM
  #715
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Originally Posted by Lockjaw333 View Post
You mean deals involving Feds? Don't think so, they probably wanted to add a good depth defensive forward like him. I do agree with you that the longer players remain unsigned, the more it seems like a trade is in the works. Especially for Voracek, I'm thinking he might be involved in something.
No I mean making deals to replace lost depth with Feds.

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07-06-2012, 10:05 AM
  #716
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He's about as good offensively as he's ever going to be, he'll be 26 at the end of next year.
Is that you Jester? I remember his last rant about how "Claude Giroux is at his peak, since most players do not increase their points after 22". Pfft.

Bobby Ryan may not increase as time goes on, but I disagree. I think with more PP time and with Claude Giroux he could flirt with 50 goals.

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07-06-2012, 10:06 AM
  #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
He's about as good offensively as he's ever going to be, he'll be 26 at the end of next year.


Bring on the grim reaper! Jake has played four seasons and has been pretty consistent. What makes you think he'll double his output of goals? Just because he is 22? Schenn is 22 and everyone is convinced he is a bust.

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07-06-2012, 10:09 AM
  #718
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Is that you Jester? I remember his last rant about how "Claude Giroux is at his peak, since most players do not increase their points after 22". Pfft.

Bobby Ryan may not increase as time goes on, but I disagree. I think with more PP time and with Claude Giroux he could flirt with 50 goals.
I agree completely. Idk if 50 goals is on the horizon for him, but I think 40 would be a very realistic expectation.

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07-06-2012, 10:12 AM
  #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Is that you Jester? I remember his last rant about how "Claude Giroux is at his peak, since most players do not increase their points after 22". Pfft.

Bobby Ryan may not increase as time goes on, but I disagree. I think with more PP time and with Claude Giroux he could flirt with 50 goals.
Its not like Ryan had bad linemates on the Ducks. I could see Nash hitting 50 with Giroux but Ryan will probably stay around the 35 goal area which isn't bad at all.

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07-06-2012, 10:13 AM
  #720
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Is that you Jester? I remember his last rant about how "Claude Giroux is at his peak, since most players do not increase their points after 22". Pfft.

Bobby Ryan may not increase as time goes on, but I disagree. I think with more PP time and with Claude Giroux he could flirt with 50 goals.
No, he was wrong if that was his argument because they definitely do increase their point totals after 22. However, Ryan is 25. There isn't big difference in point totals of players from age 23-28. He would probably see an increase in points with more PP time, but 50 would be an enormous increase in goals.

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07-06-2012, 10:15 AM
  #721
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post


Bring on the grim reaper! Jake has played four seasons and has been pretty consistent. What makes you think he'll double his output of goals? Just because he is 22? Schenn is 22 and everyone is convinced he is a bust.
When did I say Voracek would double his goal total? When did I say Schenn was a bust?

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07-06-2012, 10:16 AM
  #722
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Its not like Ryan had bad linemates on the Ducks. I could see Nash hitting 50 with Giroux but Ryan will probably stay around the 35 goal area which isn't bad at all.
It's still a different situation though. Getzlaf plays a different game than Giroux. He does his best work down low and makes a lot of plays from the corners etc. Giroux is a more creative playmaker from the half boards and in the high slot and off the rush, and I think Ryans game actually compliments Gs Moreso than Getzlafs IMO.

Also, here, on Girouxs wing, he'd be THE go to guy, rather than have to compete for time and chances with Corey Perry.

I don't think it's too far fetched to say that he could out produce himself on Gs wing.

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07-06-2012, 10:19 AM
  #723
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
When did I say Voracek would double his goal total? When did I say Schenn was a bust?
Well Ryan is scoring 30+ goals a season. I assume you were pointing out that Ryan has "peaked" at this point, because you think Voracek has not (which is what others are saying). If he wants to reach Bobby Ryan levels, he would have to double his goals. If you don't think Voracek will will improve (or not to those levels) then consider the comment directed at the others saying he is only 22 and will improve.

As far as Schenn is concerned I drew the same inference. You were asserting that Ryan has peaked because he is 25-26, and while you may not have said it, but others have so I was simply pointing it out.

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07-06-2012, 10:21 AM
  #724
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It's still a different situation though. Getzlaf plays a different game than Giroux. He does his best work down low and makes a lot of plays from the corners etc. Giroux is a more creative playmaker from the half boards and in the high slot and off the rush, and I think Ryans game actually compliments Gs Moreso than Getzlafs IMO.

Also, here, on Girouxs wing, he'd be THE go to guy, rather than have to compete for time and chances with Corey Perry.

I don't think it's too far fetched to say that he could out produce himself on Gs wing.
50 goals are a lot though. I would love to see anything above 30 from him on a consistent basis. Giroux and Ryan would be deadly for years and he would be worth giving up Voracek plus for easily.

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07-06-2012, 10:21 AM
  #725
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Its not like Ryan had bad linemates on the Ducks. I could see Nash hitting 50 with Giroux but Ryan will probably stay around the 35 goal area which isn't bad at all.
Ryan barely plays with Getzlaf or Perry anymore. They are trying to balance their scoring so he was most frequently pair with Nick Bonino and DSP this year. 2010 he played most of his shifts with Brad Winchester and Brandon Mcmillan. He also saw 2nd unit power play time according to Duck fans. I wouldn't say 50 goals is out of the question, but unlikely. I could see him score 40-45 though in his first year with Giroux if he comes over

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