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Old
06-22-2012, 11:29 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I just dont trust your methods of evaluating hockey talent. You essentially just took every d man we have in the system and said its a deep pool.

Is it? I dont know. My guess is you dont either. I would also bet a lot of money that if we swapped d prospects with just about any other team in the league, you would suddenly say that list of guys were deep.

We have some first round picks in the system. Thats great. But so do a lot of teams.
Such as?

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06-22-2012, 11:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Whatever forward we could've drafted at # 5 probably wouldn't make an impact for 2, 3 or maybe even 4 years anyways. A lot can change between now and then.

With as little as one trade as well.

There wasn't a top forward available at 5. If there was well I guess the scouts of the next 5 teams missed him as well and I'd tend to trust their collective minds over HF posters.

And the Komi deal only runs for 2 more years.
blah blah blah who ****ing cares? burkes earning millions, and for what? ****, any GM could do the job he's doing. Maybe even better.

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06-22-2012, 11:49 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I feel the same way about Franson, which is my biggest issue with the overstocking on defensemen.

We basically have a bunch of guys who could potentially blossom elsewhere, given more playing time and responsibilities, but because they have limited time here in Toronto, they're not inflating their trade values to the point where the Leafs could get some real help. If you move a guy like Franson at a discount, then when he develops, it looks like the Leafs got hosed. The only alternative I guess is to target forwards who are also buried in these awkward situations, and hope they blossom in Toronto, like the Aulie for Ashton deal.
Why do we have to get hosed on a deal?

Burke aside from the Kessel deal has done absolutely awesome in trades.

Franson should bring us some value but nothing special. There is a reason that Nashville included him as the asset for taking on the Lombardi contract. If Franson was truly that good he'd have been playing more minutes. Nobody is holding him back. Just like nobody held back Gunnarson or Gardiner. They simply outperformed their peers unlike Franson.

Franson played about the same in Nashville as he did in Toronto which is # 6/7 dmen minutes. I trust that between Mr. No Neck, Wilson and Carlyle know more than us.

If Burke trades him for lets say even a 2nd round pick then it's a net gain from if we never had him in the 1st place.


Last edited by Ricky Bobby: 06-23-2012 at 12:03 AM.
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Old
06-22-2012, 11:50 PM
  #54
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HUGELY overrated! Toronto's D sucks!
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06-22-2012, 11:54 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by T M L View Post
HUGELY overrated! Toronto's D sucks!
Very bold statement. The coach wasn't right IMO. Even Komisarek is better then what he showed last year, and Luke Schenn should be a beast under Carlyle.

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06-23-2012, 12:02 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
Very bold statement. The coach wasn't right IMO. Even Komisarek is better then what he showed last year, and Luke Schenn should be a beast under Carlyle.
D is also a team game.

Our goaltending is among the bottom third of the league and the forwards as a collective group are probably bottom third (definitely defensively) as well.

Burke made the right choice by going with the best player available to add to our team assets.

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06-23-2012, 12:09 AM
  #57
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"the Oilers like Schenn and have asked about him......other teams believe he'd be a better player out of Toronto."

Other teams think Schenn would be a better defenceman outside of Toronto. I guess that means they think more of him then Leaf fans do.

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06-23-2012, 12:19 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
"the Oilers like Schenn and have asked about him......other teams believe he'd be a better player out of Toronto."

Other teams think Schenn would be a better defenceman outside of Toronto. I guess that means they think more of him then Leaf fans do.
or he's in over his head here, like most of the team. either or.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:22 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Whatever forward we could've drafted at # 5 probably wouldn't make an impact for 2, 3 or maybe even 4 years anyways. A lot can change between now and then.

With as little as one trade as well.

There wasn't a top forward available at 5. If there was well I guess the scouts of the next 5 teams missed him as well and I'd tend to trust their collective minds over HF posters.

And the Komi deal only runs for 2 more years.
Many teams drafted by need not BPA - that is why so many dman were drafted.

The #1C conversation has a specific flow
1. During the year lots of excuses about how Big #1C are not available "cheaply" by trades or as UFA - that is, they need to be drafted
2. Than draft day - the best available player is a dman
3. Than Go to 1 and repeat

Burke been at trying to find a 1C and a starting goalie for 4 years. How much longer?

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06-23-2012, 12:41 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Many teams drafted by need not BPA - that is why so many dman were drafted.

The #1C conversation has a specific flow
1. During the year lots of excuses about how Big #1C are not available "cheaply" by trades or as UFA - that is, they need to be drafted
2. Than draft day - the best available player is a dman
3. Than Go to 1 and repeat

Burke been at trying to find a 1C and a starting goalie for 4 years. How much longer?
The Ducks, Wild and Jets who drafted 6, 7 and 9 also need help down the middle.

Luongo looks to be on his way to Toronto at some point so we might be able to check one of those items off the list.

As far as a # 1 center, Burke will probably have to address that next off-season cause I don't think the Leafs are in a position to trade away multiple assets in Rielly, Gardiner, Schenn, Gunnarson, 2013 1st, Kadri, Kulemin, etc. quite yet.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:49 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Many teams drafted by need not BPA - that is why so many dman were drafted.

The #1C conversation has a specific flow
1. During the year lots of excuses about how Big #1C are not available "cheaply" by trades or as UFA - that is, they need to be drafted
2. Than draft day - the best available player is a dman
3. Than Go to 1 and repeat

Burke been at trying to find a 1C and a starting goalie for 4 years. How much longer?
Ducks need a #2C went of the board and selected Lindholm
Winnipeg who needs 2 top 6 C's (Little is better at W but playing C due to the lack of) went with Trouba
Chicago who needs a #2C went with a W (TT is mostly a W rarely plays C)
Florida needs a #1C went with a D
St Louis needs a #1C (arguably, Backes is a better Winger than C) went with a D

Draft BPA every time... If a player was a consensus top 5 there is no way he drops that far, need or not. Thats is why Yakupov went 1st overall, he was the consensus even though he was the last thing Edmonton needed.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:58 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Ducks need a #2C went of the board and selected Lindholm
Winnipeg who needs 2 top 6 C's (Little is better at W but playing C due to the lack of) went with Trouba
Chicago who needs a #2C went with a W (TT is mostly a W rarely plays C)
Florida needs a #1C went with a D
St Louis needs a #1C (arguably, Backes is a better Winger than C) went with a D

Draft BPA every time... If a player was a consensus top 5 there is no way he drops that far, need or not. Thats is why Yakupov went 1st overall, he was the consensus even though he was the last thing Edmonton needed.
The point you miss is that it has been 4 years and here we still make excuses for not having a #1C.

Every year people have excuse - like how teams don't wants to trade #1c, or we didn't want to overpay for UFA and so they need to be drafted. And now the draft passes and we have the BPA excuse and still no #1C.


The teams you mention have a prospects and plans to address those needs. Not many teams leave needs unfulfilled for year l - but I can think of two - Islander and Oilers both need defence. And they like the leafs finish near the bottom each year.


4 years - and I'm tired of excuses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
The Ducks, Wild and Jets who drafted 6, 7 and 9 also need help down the middle.

Luongo looks to be on his way to Toronto at some point so we might be able to check one of those items off the list.

As far as a # 1 center, Burke will probably have to address that next off-season cause I don't think the Leafs are in a position to trade away multiple assets in Rielly, Gardiner, Schenn, Gunnarson, 2013 1st, Kadri, Kulemin, etc. quite yet.

Regarding addressing it next season - that is what people said one year ago and two years ago and you get the picture.
Burke was hired to build a contending team and not to have fans make excuses for his lack of results over the last four years.

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Old
06-23-2012, 01:04 AM
  #63
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Phaneuf-Gunnar
Gardiner-Schultz
Liles-Komisarek
Schenn-Reilly
Blacker-Percy
Holzer-Franson

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06-23-2012, 01:07 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
The point you miss is that it has been 4 years and here we still make excuses for not having a #1C.

Every year people have excuse - like how teams don't wants to trade #1c, or we didn't want to overpay for UFA and so they need to be drafted. And now the draft passes and we have the BPA excuse and still no #1C.


The teams you mention have a prospects and plans to address those needs. Not many teams leave needs unfulfilled for year l - but I can think of two - Islander and Oilers both need defence. And they like the leafs finish near the bottom each year.


4 years - and I'm tired of excuses.
None of them have prospects to fill that need aside from Chicago. Burke knows what he needs but if nothings available then theres nothing he could do...

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06-23-2012, 01:09 AM
  #65
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With all the defenceman picked in the 1st round, the team that needed defence the most, ended up with a forward.

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06-23-2012, 01:19 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
The point you miss is that it has been 4 years and here we still make excuses for not having a #1C.

Every year people have excuse - like how teams don't wants to trade #1c, or we didn't want to overpay for UFA and so they need to be drafted. And now the draft passes and we have the BPA excuse and still no #1C.


The teams you mention have a prospects and plans to address those needs. Not many teams leave needs unfulfilled for year l - but I can think of two - Islander and Oilers both need defence. And they like the leafs finish near the bottom each year.


4 years - and I'm tired of excuses.





Regarding addressing it next season - that is what people said one year ago and two years ago and you get the picture.
Burke was hired to build a contending team and not to have fans make excuses for his lack of results over the last four years.
Have you checked what it would have cost for even a # 2 center?

Were you ready to give up something like Gardiner and 5th overall + for only a year of Staal?


Last edited by Ricky Bobby: 06-23-2012 at 01:24 AM.
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Old
06-23-2012, 01:23 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
None of them have prospects to fill that need aside from Chicago. Burke knows what he needs but if nothings available then theres nothing he could do...
Bingo!

People just expect him to turn water into wine when only good beer is on the menu.

1 of Gunnarson or Schenn is definitely gone by next draft at the very latest. My guess is Gunnarson moves next February/March when teams overpay the most for dmen every year like how we got awesome returns for Beauchemin and Kaberle.

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Old
06-23-2012, 01:43 AM
  #68
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None of them have prospects to fill that need aside from Chicago. Burke knows what he needs but if nothings available then theres nothing he could do...
Find me how many of those teams that have unfilled roles for 4 years?
Also how many of those teams have not made the playoffs (one the Jets)?

Florida drafted Hubreaudeau last year to fill the #1C role. This year they drafted a dman.

Ducks need a #2C and they may draft him in the 2nd but this is an issue for less than one year since Koivu may not resign (and not 4 years like the leafs). That said, they did draft Holland but I'm not sure if he will be more than a 3c.

Winnipeg needs a major overhaul and they have been at their rebuild one year (but last year they drafted Scheifle)

Chicago drafted McNeil last year to fill the #2C (they also have Pirri).

St Louis - I think Backes is fine as #1C but they can use more forwards and centers.

Keep in mind many other teams fans don't make excuse for their GM by saying their was nothing their GM could do because those teams trade or draft to address shortfalls. (Except for Islanders and Oilers and a few more. And most Islanders fans are not fond of Islanders management).

Burke is not paid to do nothing for four years.
Burke was hired as GM to make the team a contender.

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06-23-2012, 01:50 AM
  #69
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Have you checked what it would have cost for even a # 2 center?

Were you ready to give up something like Gardiner and 5th overall + for only a year of Staal?
Most fans think Kessel for 2 firsts and 2nd was a steal.
But Staal or Kessel are not the points - Burke has been at this for four years and has failed to date to address goaltending and #1c. Fine no one is perfect, but I am looking for what is the plan to address goaltending and #1c. Not what is the excuse for why Burke failed.

Take a look at what Shero has done
1. Acquired Vokoun for a #7 draft pick to address goaltending
2. Traded Staal for a capable #3c replacement, plus picks/prospects
3. Freed up cap space to pursue Parise or Suter

What has Burke done this year to address leaf shortcomings?

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06-23-2012, 02:16 AM
  #70
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the defense core has been upgraded

nothing wrong here

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06-23-2012, 02:29 AM
  #71
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Find me how many of those teams that have unfilled roles for 4 years?
Also how many of those teams have not made the playoffs (one the Jets)?

Florida drafted Hubreaudeau last year to fill the #1C role. This year they drafted a dman.

Ducks need a #2C and they may draft him in the 2nd but this is an issue for less than one year since Koivu may not resign (and not 4 years like the leafs). That said, they did draft Holland but I'm not sure if he will be more than a 3c.

Winnipeg needs a major overhaul and they have been at their rebuild one year (but last year they drafted Scheifle)

Chicago drafted McNeil last year to fill the #2C (they also have Pirri).

St Louis - I think Backes is fine as #1C but they can use more forwards and centers.

Keep in mind many other teams fans don't make excuse for their GM by saying their was nothing their GM could do because those teams trade or draft to address shortfalls. (Except for Islanders and Oilers and a few more. And most Islanders fans are not fond of Islanders management).

Burke is not paid to do nothing for four years.
Burke was hired as GM to make the team a contender.
Hmmmm.

Pittsburgh has yet to find a winger for Crosby after 7 years, never mind that, it has taken them 6 years to find a capable top 6 winger.

Boston has yet to find a true #2 D to play along side Chara for as long as i can remember

Buffalo has not had a #1 C since Briere left (unless you count Roy as a #1 which i don't, more of a 1b/2a)

Calgary has never had a #1 C for Iginla

Columbus has never had a capable centre for Nash (had Carter but dealt him quick), nor had they ever had a #1G, don't even think they ever had a #1 D

Dallas hasn't had a #1 D for a while

Edmonton hasn't had a #1 D or G for a while now

Florida has not had a #1 C for a while nor a true #1 D until Campbell

Minne has not had a #1 D or #2 C for a while

Montreal hasn't had a #1 C in a while

Nashville has never (i don't think) had a #1 C

NJD hasn't had a #1 D in a while

NYI hasn't had a #1 G in a while

Sens havent had a #1 G in a while (unless you count Anderson)

Don't think Phionex ever had a #1 C

San Jose hasn't had a true #1 G in a while

Tampa still doesn't have a #1 D or #1G

Winnipeg doesn't have a #1C or true #1G

Almost every team in the league have had a hole that hasn't been filled in a while I also like how #1 D was in every ones needs now it has suddenly disappeared

Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Most fans think Kessel for 2 firsts and 2nd was a steal.
But Staal or Kessel are not the points - Burke has been at this for four years and has failed to date to address goaltending and #1c. Fine no one is perfect, but I am looking for what is the plan to address goaltending and #1c. Not what is the excuse for why Burke failed.

Take a look at what Shero has done
1. Acquired Vokoun for a #7 draft pick to address goaltending
2. Traded Staal for a capable #3c replacement, plus picks/prospects
3. Freed up cap space to pursue Parise or Suter

What has Burke done this year to address leaf shortcomings?
Vokoun was granted a window where he was allowed to talk to any team, wanted 3 mill + from Toronto and less from Pittsburgh, meaning obviously he rather go somewhere else.

Dealing Staal is a type of move that Toronto is not in the position to make. We don't have a overwhelming amount of riches that we can sell to address other needs. It is a lot easier to maintain and upgrade a contender then it is to raise a bottom feeder.

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06-23-2012, 02:39 AM
  #72
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Am I the only one who sees to much offensive Dmen and not enough defensively strong defensemen? our current roster has alot of strong offensive Dmen but we were seriously lacking Defensively strong players last year.

Strong Offensively: Rielly, Gardiner, Liles, franson, Blacker

Two Way: Phaneuf(strong offensively, but really only average defensively), Gunner, Percy

Strong Defensively: Schenn(well he's suppose to be), Holzer(will be on waivers should he not make the team), Granberg(project has a long road to the NHL still)

Garbage: Komi


we have alot of top end offensive Dmen but I really feel we still lack anything that would look like a great shut down pairing guys. Rielly obviously not gonna fill that role imo and he doesn't have to. I'm just saying while we have alot of depth in the offensive side for Dmen but not alot of the big strong shutdown guys, which is also all the more reason to keep a guy like Schenn.

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06-23-2012, 02:43 AM
  #73
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His kinda right, on paper the leaf's has above avg D, on ice there 2nd last in goals allowed per game (only Tampa allowed more). If it weren't for Kessel and Lupul this team woulda probably been last place in the conference and we can thank the D for that. Hopefully Carlyle can change this, maybe they just underperformed because of Wilson's run n gun system.


Last edited by lebdafor norris: 06-23-2012 at 02:49 AM.
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06-23-2012, 02:48 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
With all the defenceman picked in the 1st round, the team that needed defence the most, ended up with a forward.
, thats pretty ironic, passing Yak is probably a firable offence but their team's best D man is Jeff Petry, they have to at least make a trade.

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06-23-2012, 02:49 AM
  #75
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Bottom line,time to clean up the mess on D.

Dmen for sale.Expensive vet,discount prices:Komi.Potential is there but needs TLC:Schenn.Bargain buster:Gunner or old but racy(boom or bust):Liles.Upside for the right driver:Franson.And finally but not least, decent but gas guzzlerhanueff.Line up and pick em.

Not for sale:Gardiner,Holzer(cheap),Blecker(replaces Schenn) and Percy.


Burke just sent a wake up call to our defense."You are all expendable!"

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