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Our defensive prospect depth

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Old
06-23-2012, 03:00 AM
  #76
LetzgoEggo
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Pick the best player available. Nothing wrong with another D man if he was the best guy available. We obviously have some assets to trade on D now, so I hope BB can address the goal, C and grinder issues this offseason. If not and the team performs poorly (if we have a season) I believe he is done.

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:52 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I just dont trust your methods of evaluating hockey talent. You essentially just took every d man we have in the system and said its a deep pool.

Is it? I dont know. My guess is you dont either. I would also bet a lot of money that if we swapped d prospects with just about any other team in the league, you would suddenly say that list of guys were deep.

We have some first round picks in the system. Thats great. But so do a lot of teams.
I would like to see a list of other teams with similar defensive prospect depth to the Leafs. Prospects are just that: PROSPECTIVE talents at turning into productive players in the future. The Leafs have been picking a lot of defensemen in the early rounds of the draft over the past few years and made key trades which has translated into a deep pool of defensive prospects.

I can break it down into terms you may understand though, purely by looking at where they were drafted.

Jake Gardiner (first round)
Stuart Percy (first round)
Morgan Rielly (first round)
Luke Schenn (first round)
Jesse Blacker (second round)

But then we have our AHL development stream preparing players such as Korbinian Holzer for NHL duties as well.

Believe it or not, our defensive prospect pool is deep. It lacks blue-chippers but it makes up for it with depth.

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Old
06-23-2012, 08:07 AM
  #78
ErnieLeafs
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Well of course Franson, Komisarek, Gunnarsson and Schenn could be moved, but we are also likely to get back a forward who other teams don't need, right? Therefore, the quality forward isn't resolved. But there's always next year.
All you do is complain. This team could've picked the guy you ewanted, and somehow, it wouldn't have been good enough.

You're going to die a lonely, miserable little man.

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Old
06-23-2012, 08:42 AM
  #79
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Most fans think Kessel for 2 firsts and 2nd was a steal.
But Staal or Kessel are not the points - Burke has been at this for four years and has failed to date to address goaltending and #1c. Fine no one is perfect, but I am looking for what is the plan to address goaltending and #1c. Not what is the excuse for why Burke failed.

Take a look at what Shero has done
1. Acquired Vokoun for a #7 draft pick to address goaltending
2. Traded Staal for a capable #3c replacement, plus picks/prospects
3. Freed up cap space to pursue Parise or Suter

What has Burke done this year to address leaf shortcomings?
Sometimes the best moves are the moves you don't make.

Most fans actually scream about how we gave up Seguin + for Kessel. When the reality is that if that # 2 overall pick turns into even # 3, we'd have already built a statue for Burke. It was a high risk trade.

Luongo looks to still be the plan for goaltending. Never have I heard so many rumours or expert opinions saying a certain player is going to this team before it actually happens. Provided that it happens what would have been the point of him making other goaltending deals?

Toronto has their fair share of holes in the roster. They can't all be fixed this off-season.

Look at how long it took the Pens or Bruins or Kings to build up to the teams that they are. It doesn't happen overnight. Unfortunately for Burke he didn't walk into having any top end assets (i.e. Crosby, Malkin, Staal, MAF, Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, Kopitar, Brown, Quick, etc.) left by the previous management group like the GMs of those teams did. Which means it'll take a little longer for Burke to compile a collection of top end talent and will have to take risks on buying some players at their lowest values in the hopes they bounce back (Phaneuf, Lupul).

Burke will have had a very successful summer if he can trade little to nothing for Luongo and manages to sign Schultz. Than we manage to trade Franson for decent value.

Looking at next season, Burke needs to get value for whichever players won't be here beyond next season (i.e. all or some of Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong, Bozak, CMac). Than use those acquired pick/prospects plus our organizational D depth to address the forward group.

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Old
06-23-2012, 09:15 AM
  #80
The Saurus
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And we add another promising d-man to an already solid defensive prospect list:

Matthew Finn.

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Old
06-23-2012, 09:27 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by LeafTroll View Post
, thats pretty ironic, passing Yak is probably a firable offence but their team's best D man is Jeff Petry, they have to at least make a trade.
And in the 2nd round, Edmonton takes a winger, the Leafs take a defenceman.

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Old
06-23-2012, 09:42 AM
  #82
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Defense wins championships. Stay the course Burke, stay the course.

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Old
06-23-2012, 09:43 AM
  #83
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If Justin Schultz becomes a Leaf we're set up for a while.

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06-23-2012, 09:45 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Defense wins championships. Stay the course Burke, stay the course.
The most important piece to that equation is goaltending. We need Luongo to ensure this entire plan comes together.

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06-23-2012, 09:46 AM
  #85
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i got some serious deja vu from 2008 when leafs drafted Luke


in the words of luke skywalker

"NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!"

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06-23-2012, 10:16 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
I would like to see a list of other teams with similar defensive prospect depth to the Leafs. Prospects are just that: PROSPECTIVE talents at turning into productive players in the future. The Leafs have been picking a lot of defensemen in the early rounds of the draft over the past few years and made key trades which has translated into a deep pool of defensive prospects.

I can break it down into terms you may understand though, purely by looking at where they were drafted.

Jake Gardiner (first round)
Stuart Percy (first round)
Morgan Rielly (first round)
Luke Schenn (first round)
Jesse Blacker (second round)

But then we have our AHL development stream preparing players such as Korbinian Holzer for NHL duties as well.

Believe it or not, our defensive prospect pool is deep. It lacks blue-chippers but it makes up for it with depth.
How the hell does it lack blue-chippers? Rielly and Gardiner and both blue-chippers, and Luke Schenn was one before he became a regular on the team.

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Old
06-23-2012, 10:21 AM
  #87
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The depth chart is really just a mess here. I think the Matthew Finn pick is the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of it just being overkill The more you look at it the more it becomes apparent that the management staff has created more work for itself for the future and put some of the future into the hands of other GMs when it comes to being able to get forwards for all this defensive depth.

Can we get rid of Liles, Komisarek, Schenn, Franson to at least open up some room?

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Old
06-23-2012, 11:31 AM
  #88
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
The depth chart is really just a mess here. I think the Matthew Finn pick is the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of it just being overkill The more you look at it the more it becomes apparent that the management staff has created more work for itself for the future and put some of the future into the hands of other GMs when it comes to being able to get forwards for all this defensive depth.

Can we get rid of Liles, Komisarek, Schenn, Franson to at least open up some room?
The prospects will all develop at different paces which will spread things out:

Reilly: most likely headed back to junior this year
Blacker: ready to be called up mid or late next season at the earliest
Percy: at least another season but probably 2 away.
Finn: very good chance he doesn't even become an NHLer. At least a few seasons away if he does

Komisarek: gone in two years at most
Franson: probably gone this summer but at some point next season by the latest to open up room for Holzer

We're finally starting to have some very good depth at a position. Why is everybody getting upset about this? LA had great depth at D which allowed them to trade Johnson as the main piece for Carter or Tuebert as part of a package for Penner or the Pens had good D depth and were able to get Kunitz/Tangradi for Whitney or Neal for Goligoski to address their wings concerns. Why can't the Leafs make similar sorts of deals at some point?

With the failure rate of draft picks Burke made the right move by trusting his scouting staff to take the best player available regardless of them being forward or D.

Why are we trying to get rid of Liles and Schenn anyways?

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Old
06-23-2012, 11:46 AM
  #89
Al14
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In a couple of years we're going to have a great defence! However, we're going to lose a lot of games 3-2, 2-1, 1-0, because we'll have virtually no offence.

I hope I'm wrong.

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Old
06-23-2012, 11:49 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by T M L View Post
HUGELY overrated! Toronto's D sucks!
And, what credentials do you possess to make this claim?

Just wondering. Thanks.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:00 PM
  #91
Liminality
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Originally Posted by JackJ View Post
The most important piece to that equation is goaltending. We need Luongo to ensure this entire plan comes together.
A good defence can make a goalie appear better than he really is.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:02 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'm not 100% sure what to think of overstocking of defensemen in general.

Gardiner {Keeper}
Phaneuf {Captain, sort of have to keep him}
Gunnarsson {Most reliable, but never seemed to have solidified himself in the core}
Liles {Disposable}
Schenn {Disposable}
Holzer {Unproven}
Komisarek {Garbage}
Fraser {Minor leaguer/tweener}
Reilly {Future top 2}
Blacker {Potential top 4 not sure if we'll have room}
Percy {Potential top 4 not sure if we'll have room}
Granberg {Project}
Nilsson {Project}

13 defensemen not counting AHL depth. It will be a real challenge to cull the group and also get value back for the pieces we get rid of.

Do we still go after Schultz?
Franson? Burke has a habit of signing players to fat contracts after so-so seasons.(Liles, Grabo) Schultz might be someone who takes Liles spot, but Liles will have to play 50 solid games before he is dealable so he kind of dug a hole there.

In the best of all possible worlds you would somehow pair Schultz or Gardiner with Phaneuf, and the other in the second pairing, but if Schultz is the real deal you have to go for it. It would be a pretty soft squad with Gunnar, Liles, Gardiner, and Schultz though, and a waste to have any of them in the bottom pairing so you would have to makes some changes sooner rather than later.

Rielly should be max two years away so you might eventually end up with DP/Schultz and Gardiner/Rielly as your top two pairings. Rielly is a pretty strong guy and I think he would have more of a physical game than you would ever see out of Gunnar or Liles. It is a pretty safe bet he will be 205 his first pro season so not necessary to have someone riding shotgun for him. Maybe a little too skill heavy on the top 4 but if thats the case they will need to do some dealing, and it may eventually be DP that is the odd man out.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:03 PM
  #93
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Morgan Rielly
Jake Gardiner
Dion Phaneuf
Carl Gunnarsson
Luke Schenn
John-Michael Liles
Cody Franson
Jesse Blacker
Stuart Percy
Matthew Finn
Korbinian Holzer

Mike Komisarek
Tom Nilsson
Petter Granberg
Dennis Robertson
Simon Gysbers
Mark Fraser
Andrew MacWilliam
Max Everson
Viktor Loov
Eric Knodel

Wow.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:04 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
The depth chart is really just a mess here. I think the Matthew Finn pick is the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of it just being overkill The more you look at it the more it becomes apparent that the management staff has created more work for itself for the future and put some of the future into the hands of other GMs when it comes to being able to get forwards for all this defensive depth.

Can we get rid of Liles, Komisarek, Schenn, Franson to at least open up some room?
Why are you a rush to trade away NHL players for prospects that are probably realistically only a year or two away from being actual NHL players. This is not considering they are likely going through the AHL, so add another year or so.

Think people, think.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:05 PM
  #95
The Podium
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As of right now who i value for the future:

1. Gardiner
2. Rielly
3. Schenn
4. Finn
5. Percy
6. Blacker
7. Holzer

Not to mention Gunnarsson, Franson and Phaneuf who are only in their mid 20's.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al14 View Post
In a couple of years we're going to have a great defence! However, we're going to lose a lot of games 3-2, 2-1, 1-0, because we'll have virtually no offence.

I hope I'm wrong.
We were a top 10 team in offense last season.

You are wrong.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #97
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If Rielly didn't go through that knee injury, he'd be on the team next year. He might still be if he pulls a Gardiner and surprises, but a safe bet would be 1 more year in junior. This upcoming season:

Phaneuf - Schenn
Schultz - Gardiner
Holzer - Liles
-Blacker/Percy/Rielly/Finn

Trade Gunnarsson, Franson, Komisarek in packages for a #1G and a top 3 forward.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #98
Diamond Joe Quimby
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Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
A good defence can make a goalie appear better than he really is.
Each one of our d prospects has tremendous offensive upside, save for Holzer and the already established Schenn. Gardiner and more so Rielly are offense focused. Finn is a puck mover with offensive upside. Blacker has offensive upside, and so does Percy. It's not like there a bunch of Hal Gill or Ken Klee projections.

Don't forget the chance of landing Schultz, who also has tremendous offensive upside.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Morgan Rielly
Jake Gardiner
Dion Phaneuf
Carl Gunnarsson
Luke Schenn
John-Michael Liles
Cody Franson
Jesse Blacker
Stuart Percy
Matthew Finn
Korbinian Holzer

Mike Komisarek
Tom Nilsson
Petter Granberg
Dennis Robertson
Simon Gysbers
Mark Fraser
Andrew MacWilliam
Max Everson
Viktor Loov
Eric Knodel

Wow.
Cody Franson is a goner.. He wears #4 and so do new Leafs Morgan Rielly and Matt Finn for their junior teams so something has to give here.

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:12 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
As of right now who i value for the future:

1. Gardiner
2. Rielly
3. Schenn
4. Finn
5. Percy
6. Blacker
7. Holzer

Not to mention Gunnarsson, Franson and Phaneuf who are only in their mid 20's.
I think that's spot on. Although, I would rank Rielly over Gardiner. He has ridiculous upside IMO.

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