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Jordan Staal for #8, Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin

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Old
07-12-2012, 03:41 PM
  #476
bleedgreen
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None of our lines are great at anything. We'll see how jstaal changes that. Estaals line is no first line, no defensive line we put out there is that effective in a shutdown role.

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07-12-2012, 05:12 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
Your question is flawed because the Canes cannot possibly form a line that would be a 10 offensively or defensively, unless we're going to put Jordan with Dwyer and Nodl.

If the Canes run your top six, we will have a first line that is very good at both scoring and preventing goals, and a second line that can score a similar amount of goals to the first line, but not provide anywhere near the defensive capability of the first line, and thus our top six will have a glaring weakness.
A) It is most certainly not flawed. It was a simple logical exercise making a theoretical point. Which was clearly lost based on

B) If you have an all offense line, you don't play it in defensive situations. Then it doesn't matter that it isn't a defensive line.

C) I'm calling agree to disagree on this whole mess. We are clearly on different wavelengths.

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07-16-2012, 10:55 AM
  #478
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I've been thinking of this trade for a bit, and it's kinda hit me how big it can be. This is basically the same trade as the Wesley deal. That was a shocking deal. He gave up three first rounders for Wesley, and it was obvious we still weren't going to be a playoff team then. Maclaren, samsonov (who was a star for his first five years, looked better than thornton for the first couple), and Aitken who did squat. Sutter is a first plus more, as we wouldn't trade him for any first other than maybe a top three. Dumo would be a first if you re did his draft, could be a very good player, plus a top ten pick. At this point it's actually bigger deal than the Wesley trade, as two of the pieces aren't remotely question marks, they are going to play. The third piece was a top ten pick which wouldn't have been a given during the Wesley trade.

I bring this up, because IMO we gave up more than we did for Wesley. The Wesley trade hurt the team and had an effect for years. Wesley was great but we needed three players more than one. He did stabilize a position badly in need but those teams had little success. These are the risks you take. On the very notable plus side jstaal is very young, and plays a much more obvious impact position than Wesley. We are also in better shape than that whaler team was so in better position to withstand the downside of the trade.

I'm not saying this as a negative post against the trade. I really like the acquisition of jstaal. My point is that in a career full of some truly huge moves and risks this has become jr's biggest IMO, and not in terms of success. Biggest risk, but also the possibility to be the biggest success. It solidifies the team no doubt. The fedorov deal would've been the biggest if we'd gotten him. That would've had league wide ramifications, huge salary complications for us, plus the loss of picks. The pronger to shanny to primeau to brindy chain has also been franchise defining. What if we just had pronger the whole time? Pronger and federov? How good will/couldve sutter be/been? Dumo? Things to ponder in long sweaty boring dead of summer. I do like the deal, but my heart skipped a beat at the cost. That doesn't happen much anymore, and to be honest I knew it was gonna cost us something like that. Shouldn't have been a shock, but it was.

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07-16-2012, 11:06 AM
  #479
Boom Boom Anton
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All good points Bleed, and we may not know for years..if ever, how things would have turned out if JR had not made this deal. Could have he waited a year and still signed Jordan? No matter how Sutter ends up doing in Pitts, would he have achieved that in Carolina had he stayed? Who would have Carolina drafted? Forsberg? It was definitely a lot to give up.

In the end though, I think this deal hinges on MORE than just how Jordan does. I really think this deal was made as much to keep ERIC happy and motivated as it was to acquire Jordan. Over the years, Eric has watched as Ladd, Williams, Cole, Whitney, and Stillman etc.. have all departed and without suitable replacements. If JR hadn't have made this deal, chances are there'd be another year with no significant changes in the top 6 and another year of frustration on Eric's part. By trading for Jordan this year, it moves them closer to being a contender 1 year earlier (and maybe will help in attracting UFAs). With a 10 year contract being signed, it is definitely a franchise defining trade by JR.

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07-16-2012, 11:17 AM
  #480
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Endless debate. You guys arguing both sides are the same conversations whaler fans had, and I can debate the Wesley deal now, and it's been since like 95.

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07-16-2012, 04:11 PM
  #481
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What's so special about Dumoulin? There is more expierenced version of him in very free agent market.

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07-16-2012, 05:02 PM
  #482
Boom Boom Anton
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanson View Post
What's so special about Dumoulin? There is more expierenced version of him in very free agent market.
Well, there may be more experienced versions of him (although that's hard to say since we don't know for sure what a version of him looks like), but they will be much more expensive and other teams will be competing for them.

Who knows if Dumoulin will work out for sure, but he's the type of defensemen the Canes lack IMO. He's big, strong, physical (doesn't lay people out, but uses his body well), has good reach, and strong hockey IQ. He's strong defensively but can likely pitch in on offense as well. The only drawback I've heard was that he needed to work on his footwork, but IMO, he has all the tools to be a shutdown type top 4 defenseman for years.

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07-16-2012, 07:15 PM
  #483
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The other thing to consider is that, rather than losing future first-round picks, you're giving up something you already know and hand. It's not as much as a mortgage of the future as a sell-off of assets you already have. You still have all of your potential picks for the future, as valuable as they may or may not be.

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07-24-2012, 06:03 AM
  #484
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Please accept my belated congratulations on acquiring Jordan Staal. He's a hell of a player, as I'm sure you all know.

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07-24-2012, 07:43 PM
  #485
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The Brothers Staal at the Bauer Hockey camp today. ...


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07-24-2012, 07:48 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Juneemoon View Post
The Brothers Staal at the Bauer Hockey camp today. ...

If only that number ment something they could remove the initials.

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07-24-2012, 08:22 PM
  #487
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That's mainly for the sportswriters and statkeepers, in case they can't see the whole number.

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07-24-2012, 08:37 PM
  #488
Stephen Goalbert
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How would they be able to see the small initial letter but not the much larger number?

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07-24-2012, 08:40 PM
  #489
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It's to sell jerseys, any other explanation is invalid. A 2 looks nothing like a 1

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07-24-2012, 08:41 PM
  #490
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It's to sell jerseys,
Exactly. Most observers won't know which player wears which number.

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Old
07-24-2012, 09:03 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
How would they be able to see the small initial letter but not the much larger number?
Speaking from the perspective of a (former) long-time sportswriter, there are plenty of times you can't see an entire jersey number. It can be obscured by another person's body, the shirt can be wrinkled, or the player can be turned in such a way that it's just not visible.

Generally speaking, I always looked at the number because it's the biggest and most visible, but if you can't see the number you look for the name. And obviously, if you looked at the name it could be one of two different players. So why not differentiate them somehow?

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07-24-2012, 09:05 PM
  #492
Stephen Goalbert
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Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
Speaking from the perspective of a (former) long-time sportswriter, there are plenty of times you can't see an entire jersey number. It can be obscured by another person's body, the shirt can be wrinkled, or the player can be turned in such a way that it's just not visible.

Generally speaking, I always looked at the number because it's the biggest and most visible, but if you can't see the number you look for the name. And obviously, if you looked at the name it could be one of two different players. So why not differentiate them somehow?
But the problem is that it's going to be even harder to differentiate the initial than the number because "J" and "E" look more similar than "1" and "2", and that's not even mentioning the size difference between the letters and numbers.

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07-24-2012, 09:06 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
Generally speaking, I always looked at the number because it's the biggest and most visible, but if you can't see the number you look for the name. And obviously, if you looked at the name it could be one of two different players. So why not differentiate them somehow?
Easy. The one lying on the ice complaining to the ref is Eric.

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07-24-2012, 09:08 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
But the problem is that it's going to be even harder to differentiate the initial than the number because "J" and "E" look more similar than "1" and "2", and that's not even mentioning the size difference between the letters and numbers.
I'm just saying that putting on the initial is the expected practice when you have two players with the same last name. I wasn't speculating on how effective it would be.

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07-24-2012, 09:08 PM
  #495
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Easy. The one lying on the ice complaining to the ref is Eric.

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07-24-2012, 11:30 PM
  #496
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get jared in there. 21 y-o playing with older bros.... a staal-staal-staal line would sell ... a lot...# 13 .

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07-25-2012, 01:12 AM
  #497
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The initial on the jersey is not for us that can tell by skating stride from the upper bowl who is who. It's for the people in the lower bowl that heard that we got another one of those Staal boys, but aren't sure which one is Aaron and which one is Jordan.

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07-25-2012, 01:55 AM
  #498
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Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
But the problem is that it's going to be even harder to differentiate the initial than the number because "J" and "E" look more similar than "1" and "2", and that's not even mentioning the size difference between the letters and numbers.
If you can only see the left side of the jersey, all you are seeing is the 1st number. Those are both 1s.

Anyway, this is common practice, has been for a long time. Are there any players in the league with the same last name currently not doing this?

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Old
07-25-2012, 05:21 AM
  #499
Boom Boom Anton
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
The initial on the jersey is not for us that can tell by skating stride from the upper bowl who is who. It's for the people in the lower bowl that heard that we got another one of those Staal boys, but aren't sure which one is Aaron and which one is Jordan.
In the lower bowl we don't need to see the initial, understand their skating stride, or anything else because we can actually see their faces and hear their voices from where we sit. We can also visually verify that the game is really played with a puck and not just wait for some red light to come on to know that a goal is scored.

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Old
07-25-2012, 06:23 AM
  #500
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Easy. The one lying on the ice complaining to the ref is Eric.

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