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Derrick Pouliot | Defenseman | Portland (WHL) | 1st Round, 8th overall

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12-14-2012, 07:40 AM
  #701
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits View Post
Ok, this stuff really, really annoys me. What board? Whose board? Just because the national collection of scouting services had Pouliot a whole, what, 8 picks lower (?), he becomes some massively unconventional pick? What about all the other teams that had Pouliot in their Top-10 (which there were)? Are they just out to lunch?

It's been said before and I'll say it again. If every team released their Top-30, there would be a massive amount of people going "Huh?? What are they thinking," just because it would contrast with the general consensus lists generated by a mass scouting services. Just silly..
What does it ever mean when a team goes "off the board"? This isn't new or obscure terminology, Tasty - it means that the team picked a player well outside the consensus.

No scouting services had Pouliot in the top 10 (many far from it), and Bob McKenzie's cross-section of 10 NHL scouts had Pouliot at #17. Not to mention IHWR's experience at the hotel post-draft:

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I talked to a handful of scouts about Pouliot after the first round (perks of knowing where the NHL HQ hotel is during the draft...just find a few of the local bars and you'll meet some of the heavyweights) and not only did most of them have Pouliot as a late first rounder to and early second rounder but they called the Pens 8th overall pick the worst of the first round. No joke, other team's scouts were laughing at the pick, so for as much as we trust the Pens professionals and their opinion, I trust other team's scouts as well and they hated the pick.
We picked him when there were other, much higher-ranked players available.

I'm not saying the Pens absolutely made a mistake, I'm saying that they'd better have been 100% sure, otherwise they leave themselves open to well-justified criticism for what will likely be the only top 10 pick for the rest of the prime Crosby/Malkin era. He's always going to be measured against Forsberg and Grigorenko, and rightfully so.

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12-14-2012, 07:46 AM
  #702
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It was an off the board pick. If it was a good pick no one knows right now but those will always be more in doubt than other. Remember the Kings picking Hickey some years back when Alzner was the consensus best D on the board. That pick have always been under more scrutiny than your regular pick because it was off the board.

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12-14-2012, 08:54 AM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No scouting services had Pouliot in the top 10 (many far from it), and Bob McKenzie's cross-section of 10 NHL scouts had Pouliot at #17. Not to mention IHWR's experience at the hotel post-draft:



We picked him when there were other, much higher-ranked players available.

I'm not saying the Pens absolutely made a mistake, I'm saying that they'd better have been 100% sure, otherwise they leave themselves open to well-justified criticism for what will likely be the only top 10 pick for the rest of the prime Crosby/Malkin era. He's always going to be measured against Forsberg and Grigorenko, and rightfully so.
I'm not talking about scouting services, I'm talking about team rankings. So some teams had Pouliot in the late-first, early secound round. Who cares. Others also had him in their Top-10 (three at 8 or higher) -- Buffalo was one of those teams. Is their scouting laughably bad then? They also drafted Grigorenko, so either they know what they're doing or they don't. It goes both ways. Washington didn't even have Grigorenko on their entire board. They drafted Forsberg. Do they know what they're doing then, or not?

Basically, screw the consensus. Every team's draft board is completely different from it. It really doesn't exist, but nevertheless, we still have players with numbers next to their names so we can complain about drafting a player "too high" or celebrate picking someone who "fell"

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12-14-2012, 09:11 AM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits View Post
I'm not talking about scouting services, I'm talking about team rankings. So some teams had Pouliot in the late-first, early secound round. Who cares. Others also had him in their Top-10 (three at 8 or higher) -- Buffalo was one of those teams. Is their scouting laughably bad then? They also drafted Grigorenko, so either they know what they're doing or they don't. It goes both ways. Washington didn't even have Grigorenko on their entire board. They drafted Forsberg. Do they know what they're doing then, or not?

Basically, screw the consensus. Every team's draft board is completely different from it. It really doesn't exist, but nevertheless, we still have players with numbers next to their names so we can complain about drafting a player "too high" or celebrate picking someone who "fell"
We might as well put it all on the table and call out what's up here...

People are expecting more from DP because "their guy" wasn't taken. Sadly, in some cases, certain people want DP to do poorly so they can say they were right about FP and Grigs. DP, in their minds, is expected to do way more than a normal eighth overall, to justify being picked over "their guy".

Once again, scoring a point a game on the backend in the W, is exactly what we should hope and expect from DP. He's improved both in his own end and physically this season, as well. Anyone who expects more than this, is not realistic and quite frankly, he doesn't have to live up to the "Orr like" standards some people have put on him.

He's a very talented kid who has rare vision and a very healthy drive to keep getting better. I'm quite pleased with him being a Pen.

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12-14-2012, 09:19 AM
  #705
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Just to chime in, I never said Pouliot was some super terrible prospect that was destined to bust. Just that he's a real project that is years away from being a finished and developed professional hockey player.

But to play devil's advocate, I thought the Sens were nuts for trading up to pick a 160 pound defenseman out of Sweden. That's a franchise that has some very solid roots and scouting presence in that country so they stick with what they do well and it worked out perfect for them. I remember when Ottawa went off the board to draft Brian Lee...go ask Sens fans which stud player that the Sens didn't take instead they'd prefer?

Maybe the Pens thing is defensemen out of the CHL? That's all they ever seem to draft.

To a lot of people, where a player was drafted doesn't mean much if it results in a solid NHL player. But it's hard not to notice when a better player was available that the team passed on...especially with an off the board selection on draft day.

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12-14-2012, 09:23 AM
  #706
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Oh...and just to reaffirm my position. I think Maatta will end up being the better player. To me, he was the better prospect at the draft, he's been the better player so far this year and should be the better professional.

We're lucky he was still on the board with our 2nd pick. Kid's a beast.

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12-14-2012, 09:38 AM
  #707
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Oh...and just to reaffirm my position. I think Maatta will end up being the better player. To me, he was the better prospect at the draft, he's been the better player so far this year and should be the better professional.

We're lucky he was still on the board with our 2nd pick. Kid's a beast.
This is just proof how people see different things when watching prospects. I like Maatta, but I don't think he is in the same class as DP. I see a good player when I watch Maatta. I see a dynamic player when I watch DP.

I routinely see DP do things that Maatta simply can't do. DP is almost always in control of his game with the puck on his stick. Maatta just has a tendency to fumble the puck and be a spazz more often than I like to see (but he is getting better at it).

I do like Maatta's ability to find space and get off a big winding shot from up high. That is something he really excels at.

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12-14-2012, 09:45 AM
  #708
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To me that's kind of the draft in a nutshell. We got a kid some had ranked closer to the 20's with the 8th pick and another kid that quite a few had ranked close to top 10 with the 22nd pick.

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12-14-2012, 10:21 AM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
This is just proof how people see different things when watching prospects. I like Maatta, but I don't think he is in the same class as DP. I see a good player when I watch Maatta. I see a dynamic player when I watch DP.

I routinely see DP do things that Maatta simply can't do. DP is almost always in control of his game with the puck on his stick. Maatta just has a tendency to fumble the puck and be a spazz more often than I like to see (but he is getting better at it).

I do like Maatta's ability to find space and get off a big winding shot from up high. That is something he really excels at.
It's not really fair to compare the two defensemen based exclusively on offensive attributes. We know DP is one of the premier offensive talents from the blueline. Who will ultimately become the better NHL player will have to also prove themselves when they are actually defending. Looking at the Pens over the last couple of seasons, I would much prefer someone with a strong 2-way game. And by that I mean a real 2-way game in which they can actually defend. In fact, I would ultimately prefer a 1-way game of strictly defending. If they can add offense, great, but not at the expense of defense, please.

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12-14-2012, 10:36 AM
  #710
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It's not really fair to compare the two defensemen based exclusively on offensive attributes. We know DP is one of the premier offensive talents from the blueline. Who will ultimately become the better NHL player will have to also prove themselves when they are actually defending. Looking at the Pens over the last couple of seasons, I would much prefer someone with a strong 2-way game. And by that I mean a real 2-way game in which they can actually defend. In fact, I would ultimately prefer a 1-way game of strictly defending. If they can add offense, great, but not at the expense of defense, please.
That's why Michalek was brought in but that didn't work out too well. Him and the system were like oil and water. No one knows what DP will turn out to be but he is taking the right steps and saying the right things about the parts of his game he wants to improve on (his defensive game and physicality)

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12-14-2012, 10:48 AM
  #711
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It's not really fair to compare the two defensemen based exclusively on offensive attributes. We know DP is one of the premier offensive talents from the blueline. Who will ultimately become the better NHL player will have to also prove themselves when they are actually defending. Looking at the Pens over the last couple of seasons, I would much prefer someone with a strong 2-way game. And by that I mean a real 2-way game in which they can actually defend. In fact, I would ultimately prefer a 1-way game of strictly defending. If they can add offense, great, but not at the expense of defense, please.
Well I've said several times they both need work in their own end. Neither is bad, but they both have a ways to go. Maatta has a tendency to show his stick too early and then overextend on his pokechecks and it leaves him vulnerable, but that is the only real glaring weakness I have noticed between the two of them.

Since I feel both are about equally the same in their own end, DP's dynamic offensive game is what puts him head and shoulders above Maatta IMHO. DP always seems to be in control of himself and the puck, while Maatta has some spazz in him, and that is what has worried me since they drafted him.

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12-14-2012, 11:00 AM
  #712
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Well I've said several times they both need work in their own end. Neither is bad, but they both have a ways to go. Maatta has a tendency to show his stick too early and then overextend on his pokechecks and it leaves him vulnerable, but that is the only real glaring weakness I have noticed between the two of them.

Since I feel both are about equally the same in their own end, DP's dynamic offensive game is what puts him head and shoulders above Maatta IMHO. DP always seems to be in control of himself and the puck, while Maatta has some spazz in him, and that is what has worried me since they drafted him.
That's a fair assessment of Maatta, but I don't see DP being equal to Maattta in terms of defensive ability. I have been bogged down this fall though and have not seen them nearly as many times as others (yourself included), so take that for what it's worth. That being said, I always thought Maatta positioned himself well all over the ice, particularly in the playoffs last season. He looked really good in the couple of games I have seen this season as well.

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12-14-2012, 12:39 PM
  #713
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That's a fair assessment of Maatta, but I don't see DP being equal to Maattta in terms of defensive ability. I have been bogged down this fall though and have not seen them nearly as many times as others (yourself included), so take that for what it's worth. That being said, I always thought Maatta positioned himself well all over the ice, particularly in the playoffs last season. He looked really good in the couple of games I have seen this season as well.
I think people tend to watch offensively gifted blueliners like DP and assume they have a huge hole in their game at the opposite end.

He is steady in his own end and willing to be physical as well.

I just don't see anything Maatta does better in his own end than DP.

The good thing is that neither is a trainwreck defensively and both are improving. For me, i would just like to see more consistency out of Maatta. If he can play with consistent body and puck control, he could be something special.

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12-14-2012, 01:45 PM
  #714
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I'm not talking about scouting services, I'm talking about team rankings. So some teams had Pouliot in the late-first, early secound round. Who cares. Others also had him in their Top-10 (three at 8 or higher) -- Buffalo was one of those teams. Is their scouting laughably bad then? They also drafted Grigorenko, so either they know what they're doing or they don't. It goes both ways. Washington didn't even have Grigorenko on their entire board. They drafted Forsberg. Do they know what they're doing then, or not?
Since we have very little access to the team rankings, I'm not sure how far that's supposed to get us. But alright, assuming 3 teams had Pouliot at #8 or higher (never saw this, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt), that leaves an overwhelming majority that had him ranked outside the top 8.

What I'm saying is that if you make an off-the-board pick, you leave yourself open to criticism, so you'd better be right. If the Oilers had bypassed Yakupov, Murray, et al and picked Lindholm 1st overall, don't you think some head-scratching from the Edmonton fanbase would be justified until Lindholm showed he was worth the reach?

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We might as well put it all on the table and call out what's up here...

People are expecting more from DP because "their guy" wasn't taken. Sadly, in some cases, certain people want DP to do poorly so they can say they were right about FP and Grigs. DP, in their minds, is expected to do way more than a normal eighth overall, to justify being picked over "their guy".

Once again, scoring a point a game on the backend in the W, is exactly what we should hope and expect from DP. He's improved both in his own end and physically this season, as well. Anyone who expects more than this, is not realistic and quite frankly, he doesn't have to live up to the "Orr like" standards some people have put on him.

He's a very talented kid who has rare vision and a very healthy drive to keep getting better. I'm quite pleased with him being a Pen.
For the record, I've never rooted against Pouliot, and have been very complimentary of the kid. He's obviously a 1st round talent, but that's not what's in dispute. A small, relatively weak offensive defenseman picked off-the-board has a lot to prove to justify the organization's selection when he's chosen ahead of highly touted, potential gamebreaking talent.

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12-14-2012, 02:12 PM
  #715
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For the record, I've never rooted against Pouliot, and have been very complimentary of the kid. He's obviously a 1st round talent, but that's not what's in dispute. A small, relatively weak offensive defenseman picked off-the-board has a lot to prove to justify the organization's selection when he's chosen ahead of highly touted, potential gamebreaking talent.
Grigs, FP or DP being successful NHL players are not mutually exclusive to each other.

There is a reason FP and Grigs fell out of the top ten. If they were the can't miss, game breaking talent many on here want to sell us on, there is no way they would of slipped as far as they did.

Grigs is a dynamic talent, but the fact is he gets lazy and seems uninterested, and the biggest red flag is he tends to disappear when teams get physical with him.

With FP, there was a fear he might not have a high offensive ceiling.

I could see maybe *****ing in five or six years if these two are tearing up the league and DP isn't doing well.

For now, I think people need to realize there are reasons why the Pens were not the only ones to pass these two over.

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12-14-2012, 02:20 PM
  #716
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Since we have very little access to the team rankings, I'm not sure how far that's supposed to get us. But alright, assuming 3 teams had Pouliot at #8 or higher (never saw this, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt), that leaves an overwhelming majority that had him ranked outside the top 8.

What I'm saying is that if you make an off-the-board pick, you leave yourself open to criticism, so you'd better be right. If the Oilers had bypassed Yakupov, Murray, et al and picked Lindholm 1st overall, don't you think some head-scratching from the Edmonton fanbase would be justified until Lindholm showed he was worth the reach?



For the record, I've never rooted against Pouliot, and have been very complimentary of the kid. He's obviously a 1st round talent, but that's not what's in dispute. A small, relatively weak offensive defenseman picked off-the-board has a lot to prove to justify the organization's selection when he's chosen ahead of highly touted, potential gamebreaking talent.
I didn't realize we had that many out of work GM's floating around the HFBoards to make such bold statements. Drafting is an art based on projecting many fine details both from the neck down AND the neck up. Draft rankings by well known hockey people and/or internet sites have nothing to do with running a hockey organization, it's to keep their reading membership entertained. I keep reading this endless whining about not drafting Grigorenko or Forsberg with the pick but get over it - they both slid down a number of draft boards for a reason. Remember, the Pens weren't the only team that passed on drafting these guys! Give Pouliot and the Pens staff a couple/few years before making any rash decisions on how 'proper' the pick was.

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12-14-2012, 02:31 PM
  #717
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To people complaining here about the pick, I trust the Pens a lot more that you, since, you know, that's what they are employed to do. Seriously, the Pens obviously saw something special in Pouliot to pick him then. They knew him really well from watching Morrow all season, so they felt comfortable with Pouliot. And I know for a fact that Buffalo would have picked him with the 12th pick if he were available, so it wasn't that far of a stretch.

Pouliot will be a solid #3 D that is capable of being the QB of the PP. I don't see the major issue with that. Who knows, he could be the next Letang. I can see the similarities (I'm afraid to go any further, in fear of getting verbally assaulted).

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12-14-2012, 04:07 PM
  #718
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To people complaining here about the pick, I trust the Pens a lot more that you, since, you know, that's what they are employed to do. Seriously, the Pens obviously saw something special in Pouliot to pick him then. They knew him really well from watching Morrow all season, so they felt comfortable with Pouliot. And I know for a fact that Buffalo would have picked him with the 12th pick if he were available, so it wasn't that far of a stretch.
This kind of rationale is, IMO, nonsense. If you disagree with someone's point of view on a prospect, fair enough. Debate why they're wrong. Don't hide behind "NHL teams know more than you".

The LA Kings took Hickey 4th overall a few years back, and at this point it looks like a stretch that he'll be more than a bottom pairing guy, if that. At the time of the draft, I'm sure you had some parroting the "LOL I trust LA's judgement over some random internet dude" line as well.

My overall points are:

1-NHL clubs aren't perfect. They make scouting mistakes as well. The Pens scouting staff saw something in Pouliot. But that shouldn't mean people who disagree with the selection are automatically wrong, just because they're not "paid to do it".

2-This is a discussion forum. If we stuck to the "Pens know best" mantra, then why even discuss anything we discuss on here? Lines, strategies, systems? Why do we even discuss those things?

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12-14-2012, 04:12 PM
  #719
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grigs is dominating the Q.

whatever "reason" there was for his slip is unjustified.
by the same token whatever "reason" there was for drafting pouliot so high has been unjustified.

just a bad pick at that point in the draft. no other way to look at it. doesnt address a need, AND high risk...why?

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12-14-2012, 04:21 PM
  #720
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grigs is dominating the Q.

whatever "reason" there was for his slip is unjustified.
by the same token whatever "reason" there was for drafting pouliot so high has been unjustified.

just a bad pick at that point in the draft. no other way to look at it. doesnt address a need, AND high risk...why?
Grigs is dominating against a bunch of kids younger than him. And for all we know, he may even be older than what's on his birth certificate. Get over it already! We know just as much about him today and how he'll fare against NHL competition as we do about Pouliot. How, based on what he's done in the Q, can you say that him slipping - or picking Pouliot where the Pens did for that matter - is NOT justified.


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12-14-2012, 04:36 PM
  #721
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I've said it before, but my big gripe with the pick is that the team was in extremely unusual situation, a very good team with a high pick, multiple 1st round picks, and multiple 3rd and 4th round picks. There was also a great talent in Grigorenko slipping in the draft. It was the perfect storm to take a bit of a chance and try to draft a potential superstar player.

That's my grift on why I was not extremely happy with the Pouliot pick. It was the situation to go big on, especially when you consider the team had the extra 1st rounder and extra mid-round picks. I don't see the Pens being in such a position for the rest of the Sid/Geno era unless they get some lottery luck this year. That being the case, when you find yourself in that situation when a huge talent is available, you have to take that chance.

Some of the reasoning for not wanting to take him is pretty laughable, like the age thing which is completely hearsay, and the "the Pens already have Sid & Geno, why would they want another elite center, he wouldn't fit in." That argument kills me. For one, we just saw Sid miss about 2 full seasons and Geno miss over half of one. Also, a scenario where Grigorenko plays well enough to be considered overqualified for anything thing less than top-6 minutes at center in the NHL would be a great situation for the team. Seriously, if the problem is that Grigorenko has developed and played well enough that in a couple of years after drafting him he is ready to assume top 2c duty and there's not a place for him on the roster, that's not a bad problem to deal with. It's like people dismiss out of hand that he'll be useless if he tried to play wing. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but no one can say with any certainty.

All of that said, I hope Pouliot turns out to the be the best player in his draft class. I'm a Pens fan and have been for a long time, I want all their guys to do well but that doesn't mean I'll without question follow every decision the team brass makes.

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12-14-2012, 05:52 PM
  #722
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Pouliot is some years away, and he has some development to do. I think the organization has a lot of confidence in getting him to where he needs to be. He has the offensive savvy to be a legitimate offensive force from the back end. He can become more polished defensively...that can be coached. He has a decent frame and can gain weight. You cannot teach offensive instincts and comfortability in the offensive zone. That's just an innate ability. We have one of the best defensemen in the league on our roster now, and it is evident with every passing game that Kris Letang is not natural in the offensive zone. He produces high point totals, but he never has that coolness or calmness from the back end. From the very limited viewings I've had of DP...he has that. The rest of his shortcomings can be overcome, and we have a very rare intangible to build around with him. IMO, that's what you draft for. You find something you cannot coach, and you build the guy up around that attribute.

No idea if he'll be worthy of the 8th overall pick, but if he develops, people will look back on this draft and not think it was as bad of a pick. I can't but help look back at the Goligoski pick, and the same **** happened here. If you look back on the 2nd round of that year now...getting a guy capable of 40-50 points, who can play middle pairing minutes, and be a capable PPQB in the 2nd round is a good pick.

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12-14-2012, 06:48 PM
  #723
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Originally Posted by Karnage420 View Post
grigs is dominating the Q.
Dominating the Q and dominating the O or W, are quite different, let alone dominating the NHL

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whatever "reason" there was for his slip is unjustified.
When he eats up the NHL and shows he is willing to pay a physical price for his points, we can say that.

Until then, I suggest holding off on making any absolute statements.

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by the same token whatever "reason" there was for drafting pouliot so high has been unjustified.
He's done nothing but get better, so I have no clue what you are basing this statement on.

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just a bad pick at that point in the draft. no other way to look at it. doesnt address a need, AND high risk...why?
You have no idea what team needs will be in 3-4 years.

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12-15-2012, 12:29 AM
  #724
Jaded-Fan
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
To people complaining here about the pick, I trust the Pens a lot more that you, since, you know, that's what they are employed to do. Seriously, the Pens obviously saw something special in Pouliot to pick him then. They knew him really well from watching Morrow all season, so they felt comfortable with Pouliot. And I know for a fact that Buffalo would have picked him with the 12th pick if he were available, so it wasn't that far of a stretch.

Pouliot will be a solid #3 D that is capable of being the QB of the PP. I don't see the major issue with that. Who knows, he could be the next Letang. I can see the similarities (I'm afraid to go any further, in fear of getting verbally assaulted).
I doubt that people groaned at the pick as much because of the Pens going off the board slightly as the position. Really it has almost become a joke here especially the past couple of years. And in this case a wing who was highly rated, higher rated than the 8th position in most of the guides you see, was sitting there and Shero went for the defenseman . . . again. But going off the board a bit with the pick was not a bother for most I think. You only have to look at picks like Goligoski in the past (do a search back to this board in 2005 if you want to have fun and read the reaction back then. Though a couple did nail that it was a good pick, most basically had a 'who???' reaction).

As for this idea of stockpiling defense as trade bait, I am not sure if that strategy actually works. You actually need to play these kids to prove their value first and deal with the growing pains. Goligoski again is a good example, he only had value after we went through him being brutal for a couple of years playing . . .well . . .defense. He would not bring you a Neal and Nisky or anything close to that when he was a prospect. Unless you are a farm team who sucks you can not afford to continually develope and trade defensemen. Kind of hard to win cups when your backend is young and learning.

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Old
12-15-2012, 01:01 AM
  #725
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post

As for this idea of stockpiling defense as trade bait, I am not sure if that strategy actually works. You actually need to play these kids to prove their value first and deal with the growing pains. Goligoski again is a good example, he only had value after we went through him being brutal for a couple of years playing . . .well . . .defense. He would not bring you a Neal and Nisky or anything close to that when he was a prospect. Unless you are a farm team who sucks you can not afford to continually develope and trade defensemen. Kind of hard to win cups when your backend is young and learning.
Well you have to remember that they are planning on keeping some, maybe a significant amount even. We have a lot of guys with a high pedigree, and a lot of guys that are improving on D. They will keep the best and move the rest when there are too many.

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