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Will Buffalo move a center?

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06-23-2012, 05:20 PM
  #101
Karate Johnson
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
The team has accomplished jack **** with Vanek as our top winger. Let's trade him too, right?
Wouldn't bother me a bit....


The era of Vanek, Roy, Poms, Goose, Max, Connolly,Hecht, Miller etc* is coming to a close... Some are already gone... Every one of their contracts is done already or ends in the after 2013-2014....

And good... They never won anything meaningful. Hopefully the next "core" is Scary Great, instead of good.

Not gonna argue about it, you may have a different opinion... But outside of Poms I bet none of those guys are Sabres in 2 years.

*Post summer of 2007 "core"

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06-23-2012, 05:30 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
Wouldn't bother me a bit....


The era of Vanek, Roy, Poms, Goose, Max, Connolly,Hecht, Miller etc* is coming to a close... Some are already gone... Every one of their contracts is done already or ends in the after 2013-2014....

And good... They never won anything meaningful. Hopefully the next "core" is Scary Great, instead of good.

Not gonna argue about it, you may have a different opinion... But outside of Poms I bet none of those guys are Sabres in 2 years.

*Post summer of 2007 "core"
Washington's done jack with Ovechkin. Dump him.

San Jose's never won anything. Thornton/Marleau out.

TB didn't even make the playoffs this year! Seeya Stammer.

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06-23-2012, 05:39 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Washington's done jack with Ovechkin. Dump him.

San Jose's never won anything. Thornton/Marleau out.

TB didn't even make the playoffs this year! Seeya Stammer.
Each team you named has been in the playoffs and won multiple playoff round over the last 5 years.... All three have made the conference finals in the last 3 years.

The Sabres have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 5 years, and won zero playoff series.....

i.e. some plans have a shot at working, some don't.

What a horrible argument you made.



But this isn't even about not liking Vanek or Poms or even Miller.... Is just don't want to give them a lot of money to play into their 30's .... Particularly when they'll be UFAs looking for their last contract. I'll say it again. Get out a year early instead of a year late.

On top of all that, who of Vanek, Roy, Pims Or Miller is irreplaceable? They are decent, but none of them are top 10 at their positions... With financial options because of Pegula there will always be better players we can spend Vanek, Roy, Miller, and Poms money on to add to the new core of the team.

That said I'd extend Poms right now to a cap friendly deal to end his career here.... The others I try to get a great deal for, trade at the deadline in a few years if we're out of it, or let walk at the end of their contracts.

10 years of Miller, Vanek, and Roy is enough.


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06-23-2012, 05:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
Each team you named has been in the playoffs and won multiple playoff round over the last 5 years.... All three have made the conference finals in the last 3 years.

The Sabres have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 5 years, and won zero playoff series.....

i.e. some plans have a shot at working, some don't.

What a horrible argument you made.
That's rich. You don't define your terms and correlate team success to each individual. Hilariously, though, there's too much cognitive dissonance to recognize that the results depend upon a team effort.

Quote:
But this isn't even about not liking Vanek or Poms or even Miller.... Is just don't want to give them a lot of money to play into their 30's .... Particularly when they'll be UFAs looking for their last contract. I'll say it again. Get out a year early instead of a year late.
That's an entirely separate issue. One that you didn't touch on previously.

Quote:
On top of all that, who of Vanek, Roy, Pims Or Miller is irreplaceable? They are decent, but none of them are top 10 at their positions... With financial options because of Pegula there will always be better players we can spend Vanek, Roy, Miller, and Poms money on to add to the new core of the team.
If your definition of replaceable is "not top 10 at their positions," then you must acknowledge that all but 50 players in the league are replaceable. By nature that's a lot to call irreplaceable, no? But, then, how can you possibly upgrade? You will not find a better goalie than Miller to replace him. It's as simple as that. Whether or not the team needs a high-quality goaltender is immaterial.

Quote:
That said I'd extend Poms right now to a cap friendly deal to end his career here.... The others I try to get a great deal for, trade at the deadline in a few years if we're out of it, or let walk at the end of their contracts.

10 years of Miller, Vanek, and Roy is enough.
Roy, Pominville, and Vanek have incredibly similar statistics from 07-08 up to the present. Why keep one and not the other? What makes Pominville's failure to deliver these meaningful wins any more acceptable than Roy's and Vanek's?

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06-23-2012, 06:14 PM
  #105
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I'm sorry if I was unclear... My argument for getting rid of Vanek, Roy and Miller is based on their production since they've been the focal point of the team since 2007 in conjunction with their age and contract situation.

How do your examples of players on successful teams relate to players on unsuccessful sabres teams though..... Regardless, that's not the point. I don't care about WAS, SJ, or TB anyway.

In regards to Miller... I'm fine going with Enroth and using the Miller money elsewhere... Miller not being an elite goalie makes him that more replaceable.....

I like Pominville as an older player more than I like Roy or Vanek.... The beatings Vanek takes effect his performance and age isn't going to help and Roy is a waste... Numbers are nice but he's lazy and careless, and I question his desire to win.

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06-23-2012, 06:31 PM
  #106
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Hey if you guys don't want Miller, we'll gladly take him

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06-23-2012, 08:26 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Brewsky View Post
Hey if you guys don't want Miller, we'll gladly take him
No, I think most of us still want Millsy. He's still a top 10 goalie when he's not concussed imho. I also doubt there's any way we could get return for him that would make us a better team -- too much of Buffalo's success relies on him for that to really happen.

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06-23-2012, 09:18 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
No, I think most of us still want Millsy. He's still a top 10 goalie when he's not concussed imho. I also doubt there's any way we could get return for him that would make us a better team -- too much of Buffalo's success relies on him for that to really happen.
I hate seeming so combative about this stuff, because its really just for the sake of conversation....

But what "success" have we really had in the last few years? 05-06 and 06-07 success was based on scoring a boatload of goals.

Even in Millers best year we had little real success to show for it.... and he really only has one great year. Can he regain elite form? maybe. But Olympic Ryan Miller is the anomaly.

I think Miller is a fine goalie, and but I don't think he'll be around in 2 years.

But back on topic... we should trade Luke Adam and Derek Roy, haha.

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06-23-2012, 09:21 PM
  #109
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Vanek - Grigorenko - Pominville
Foligno - Hodgson - Stafford
Leino - Girgensons - Tropp
Ellis - Luke Adam - Kaleta

Roy, Ennis, Gerbe gone but hopefully something happens with Leino.

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06-23-2012, 09:52 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Redarmynative View Post
Vanek - Grigorenko - Pominville
Foligno - Hodgson - Stafford
Leino - Girgensons - Tropp
Ellis - Luke Adam - Kaleta

Roy, Ennis, Gerbe gone but hopefully something happens with Leino.
So wait.... we get rid of Ennis, Roy and Gerbe but add nothing to the forwards? Did we trade Roy Ennis and Gerbe for Shea Weber?

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06-23-2012, 10:14 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
I hate seeming so combative about this stuff, because its really just for the sake of conversation....

But what "success" have we really had in the last few years? 05-06 and 06-07 success was based on scoring a boatload of goals.

Even in Millers best year we had little real success to show for it.... and he really only has one great year. Can he regain elite form? maybe. But Olympic Ryan Miller is the anomaly.

I think Miller is a fine goalie, and but I don't think he'll be around in 2 years.

But back on topic... we should trade Luke Adam and Derek Roy, haha.
I don't want to derail this thread completely, but Buffalo loses more often than not when they play in front of league average goaltending. Miller steals even more games than he gets credit for, and, imo, when he's on gives a big boost to the team in front of him. Enroth is certainly not a starter yet and may never be, and we don't have anyone else in the pipeline who's anywhere near ready.

Anyway. Yeah, Roy (if we can find another C we can rely on for the PK and d-zone starts). Adam I consider a LW at this point, but sure.

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06-23-2012, 10:30 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
So wait.... we get rid of Ennis, Roy and Gerbe but add nothing to the forwards? Did we trade Roy Ennis and Gerbe for Shea Weber?
Just trust the analysis.

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06-24-2012, 02:31 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
I don't want to derail this thread completely, but Buffalo loses more often than not when they play in front of league average goaltending. Miller steals even more games than he gets credit for, and, imo, when he's on gives a big boost to the team in front of him. Enroth is certainly not a starter yet and may never be, and we don't have anyone else in the pipeline who's anywhere near ready.

Anyway. Yeah, Roy (if we can find another C we can rely on for the PK and d-zone starts). Adam I consider a LW at this point, but sure.
Lotta faith in Enroth, but if he's not the guy for the future, everything I'm hearing says keep an eye on Ullmark from today. Bigtime sleeper potential

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06-24-2012, 02:53 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
I hate seeming so combative about this stuff, because its really just for the sake of conversation....

But what "success" have we really had in the last few years? 05-06 and 06-07 success was based on scoring a boatload of goals.

Even in Millers best year we had little real success to show for it.... and he really only has one great year. Can he regain elite form? maybe. But Olympic Ryan Miller is the anomaly.

I think Miller is a fine goalie, and but I don't think he'll be around in 2 years.

But back on topic... we should trade Luke Adam and Derek Roy, haha.
...lol...wait...lol....no...lol, Ryan Miller wont be around in some capacity or another in TWO...yes u said 2...years? Can I get a mod to pull this guys account? Seriously? Not even as a backup? get the fudge outta hereee

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06-24-2012, 11:12 AM
  #115
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The thing is, we still need a tough, defensive center like we did before the draft. Between Roy, Ennis, Hodgson, Grigorenko, Adam, Sundher, Catenacci, and Girgensons, I see exactly one center I'd trust with checking assignments, and he's the one who's furthest away from the NHL right now. Who knows if he'll even end up being good at kind of stuff at the NHL level.

So we'd be looking to trade one type of center, now definitely a position of strength, for another type in which we're sorely lacking. In that regard, things haven't changed that much since before the draft. There's still the Roy/Ennis/Hodgson logjam, only more immediate now since Grigs will be stepping in the year after. (Even if he makes it out of camp this year, I assume he'll start out on the wing like Seguin or Oshie.)

If the Sabres give away an offensive center in a deal that doesn't have a good defensive center coming back the other way, it should be for a very good scoring winger prospect, of which we have none outside Armia, or a bona fide top line/pairing guy for whom we can offer up a blockbuster. Sorry if this sounds pre-emptively bristly, but I'd just hate to see fans of other teams generously offering to relieve us of our too-many-centers problem by giving us their odd-man-out second line winger, overpaid second pairing dman, or generic offensive d-man prospect in exchange for Roy. (I suppose we may be in for many months of exactly that.)

Yes, Roy will go. But it will be for assets that make sense for us, even if that's just a draft pick for his UFA rights come next summer.

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06-24-2012, 11:40 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redarmynative View Post
Vanek - Grigorenko - Pominville
Foligno - Hodgson - Stafford
Leino - Girgensons - Tropp
Ellis - Luke Adam - Kaleta
.
Did the Sabres recently announce that they want to miss the playoffs the next 2 years - because that lineup is even weaker than the one they finished with this season.


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06-24-2012, 11:45 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by mjeurekasky View Post
Lotta faith in Enroth, but if he's not the guy for the future, everything I'm hearing says keep an eye on Ullmark from today. Bigtime sleeper potential
Hope so. I also feel good about Leiu. He had some injury troubles early on in junior, but stepped up BIG time after recovering, steadily got better, and played his best in high-pressure/playoff situations. He's also got real good athleticism for a goalie that big. Any of the Leiu/Knapp/Ullstrom could develop into an NHL-caliber goalie, but it's way too soon to expect that they will. Looking forward to seeing how Knapp and Leiuwen do in the AHL this year, or if one goes to the ECHL.

On topic: if we move a center, we still need a C coming back who can handle defensive situations. Grig seems likely to make the roster this year but probably starts as a wing, and neither Ennis or Hodgson can do the defensive heavy lifting.

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