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Did Katz overrule the Oil brass?

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Old
06-23-2012, 12:35 AM
  #26
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06-23-2012, 12:37 AM
  #27
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06-23-2012, 12:37 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
If true then Katz being involved in a hockey decision that didn't have anything to do with finances is very disturbing.

You would think that Katz would have the sense to let the hockey people make the hockey decisions.
It's all well and good that you feel that Katz shouldn't involve himself in the operations of the $200 million business he bought but the reality of the situation is that anyone would.

If the rumors are true the hockey people were on the verge of making a very bad hockey decision. Was he just supposed to sit there and watch them devalue his investment?

That said, it doesn't really matter since this is all conjecture.

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06-23-2012, 12:39 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
If true then Katz being involved in a hockey decision that didn't have anything to do with finances is very disturbing.

You would think that Katz would have the sense to let the hockey people make the hockey decisions.
it did have to do with finances, austensibly. picking Murray may well have been the final straw for a lot of fans that have not only been extremely patient, but have suffered thru some questionable (Souraygate) and even ridiculous managerial decisions (Horcoff and Habby contracts). Not to mention, that he will have to pay a 'solid, reliable number 2 or 3 Dman' like a 1st overall pick.

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06-23-2012, 12:45 AM
  #30
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I'm going to answer your question with a no.
Katz is a billionare who has made his cheddar by putting people in key positions in his multiple business interests to make serious decisions for him. I'd imagine his trust in the people he has chosen to be around him with the hockey club would result in a hands off approach regarding these kind of decisions.
Aside from a small character reference he may contribute (based on the dinner he continually hosts with the 1st overalls), I'd say he doesn't influence who we draft.

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06-23-2012, 12:47 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
It's all well and good that you feel that Katz shouldn't involve himself in the operations of the $200 million business he bought but the reality of the situation is that anyone would.

If the rumors are true the hockey people were on the verge of making a very bad hockey decision. Was he just supposed to sit there and watch them devalue his investment?

That said, it doesn't really matter since this is all conjecture.
Its a message board...conjecture is mutually inclusive.

The distinction between letting people that understand how to build a hockey team and making financial decisions seems to be lost on you.
If you want to believe that Katz should be the 2nd coming of Harold Ballard and involve himself in hockey decisions thats all well and good but don't expect the team to be anything more than a bottom feeder for years to come.

Katz may know how to run a business but knows little to nothing about how to build a winning hockey team.

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06-23-2012, 12:50 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustE View Post
it did have to do with finances, austensibly. picking Murray may well have been the final straw for a lot of fans that have not only been extremely patient, but have suffered thru some questionable (Souraygate) and even ridiculous managerial decisions (Horcoff and Habby contracts). Not to mention, that he will have to pay a 'solid, reliable number 2 or 3 Dman' like a 1st overall pick.
Interesting take and I don't necessarily disagree.

Katz has been involved in hockey decisions in the past so its not a stretch to think he still is. That may explain some of the nonsensical decisions made the past few years. Some real head scratchers to be sure.

This team has never been worse than it has in the Katz era...of course thats all well and good because after all its a rebuild.

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06-23-2012, 12:54 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoyawit View Post
I'm going to answer your question with a no.
Katz is a billionare who has made his cheddar by putting people in key positions in his multiple business interests to make serious decisions for him. I'd imagine his trust in the people he has chosen to be around him with the hockey club would result in a hands off approach regarding these kind of decisions.
Aside from a small character reference he may contribute (based on the dinner he continually hosts with the 1st overalls), I'd say he doesn't influence who we draft.
Here's hoping you are right.
The the past few years however seems to suggest otherwise.
Having said that this year is critical in terms of where the team needs to get to so hopefully some 'smart' hockey decisions are on the way.

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06-23-2012, 12:55 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Its a message board...conjecture is mutually inclusive.

The distinction between letting people that understand how to build a hockey team and making financial decisions seems to be lost on you.
If you want to believe that Katz should be the 2nd coming of Harold Ballard and involve himself in hockey decisions thats all well and good but don't expect the team to be anything more than a bottom feeder for years to come.

Katz may know how to run a business but knows little to nothing about how to build a winning hockey team.
yeah, but like whoyawit stated, this a complete guess. there is not a shread of evidence, or even a heresay suspicion, to suggest that Katz overruled. It may be possible that, if there was a managerial deadlock on who to pick, he broke the tie. but again, total speculation. let's leave turning speculation into fact for Stauffer/Tencer.

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06-23-2012, 12:55 AM
  #35
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There's a pretty good possibility that management was split on who to take.

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06-23-2012, 12:57 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustE View Post
yeah, but like whoyawit stated, this a complete guess. there is not a shread of evidence, or even a heresay suspicion, to suggest that Katz overruled. It may be possible that, if there was a managerial deadlock on who to pick, he broke the tie. but again, total speculation. let's leave turning speculation into fact for Stauffer/Tencer.
Ah but there is evidence...Katz's involvement in trying to sign Georges a few years back is pretty disturbing. He shouldn't be anywhere near situations like that.

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06-23-2012, 01:02 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BoredMan View Post
Jumping to conclusions: the official past time of HF Oil.
sounds like a case of the ``how can i still blame tambo for something`` abetes

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06-23-2012, 01:06 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Ah but there is evidence...Katz's involvement in trying to sign Georges a few years back is pretty disturbing. He shouldn't be anywhere near situations like that.
ok, fair enough. i meant evidence regarding this particular situation, but your point does bring credence to the possibility.

if he did stick his nose in and over ruled a majority, than that is disturbing, but i seriously doubt that happened. if anything, he was the ty-breaker and those he didn't side with were mad.

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06-23-2012, 01:19 AM
  #39
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If Katz had to step in to make the decision, then that means he's not comfortable with them running this team, which means they should be (or should've been) fired.

All this talk is non-sense. Yakupov is an Oiler. Let's all just relax and put everything else to rest.

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06-23-2012, 01:24 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Interesting take and I don't necessarily disagree.

Katz has been involved in hockey decisions in the past so its not a stretch to think he still is. That may explain some of the nonsensical decisions made the past few years. Some real head scratchers to be sure.

This team has never been worse than it has in the Katz era...of
course thats all well and good because after all its a rebuild.
It seems to me by the tone of your comments, and of course without hearing the inflection in your voice, that you feel the Oilers made a mistake in not drafting Murray.

Historically speaking, and if I need to present examples I will, defencemen taking a longer time to make a positive impact than forwards do. Further, Yakupov was the consensus BPA and, when there is a clear cut, you have to make that call or trade down if the BPA is not what your current needs are.

Looking at the Oilers prospects on D, and given that they have had some rime to develop of the last 1-3 years, the influx of talented young D men has begun (insert Petry) and will grow rapidly with adds like Klefbom. The Oilers D may be lacking today but Murray would not have been able to impact the team the way Yakupov can today.
Many times Tambo speaks of his players as assets and, again today, he added another significant asset. This add allows the Oil to move one of the top 4, if the appetite is indeed there, to add that elite defencemen that has already established himself and that we don't have to wait forever to realize.
Lastly, we still don't have a coach and I believe that speaks volumes. The Oilers need to get that decision right. The next coach needs to be able to work with the young guns and put into place a system that accentuates the talent of the players they have accumulated. He needs to have the proper posture to hold them accountable yet garner their respect. A good coach does wonders to a group, Hitchcock, Darryl Sutter as prime examples.

While frustrating for the fan base, a wholesale rebuild takes time and I believe we are close. It wasn't that long ago when Horcoff was the number one center.

A couple of key free agent adds with some grit to stand up for the young guys (I saw a thread for Ott and thought that he was a great fit) and one or two D men, coupled with a good coach and I see this team pushing for a playoff spot.

Just my 2 cents. As for the OP, if Katz did over rule the hockey ops people, good on him. The right decision was made today.

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Old
06-23-2012, 01:33 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Its a message board...conjecture is mutually inclusive.

The distinction between letting people that understand how to build a hockey team and making financial decisions seems to be lost on you.
If you want to believe that Katz should be the 2nd coming of Harold Ballard and involve himself in hockey decisions thats all well and good but don't expect the team to be anything more than a bottom feeder for years to come.

Katz may know how to run a business but knows little to nothing about how to build a winning hockey team.
Everyone makes mistakes. As such, letting people who understand how to perform a function, perform a function with no oversight is a sure way to fail.

Additionally, when an issue is this significant, there are larger issues at play. Issues that you can't reasonably expect a group of people with a circle of competence limited to the evaluation of young hockey players to fully consider.

For the sake of argument, let's say the Oilers' scouting staff was right and 3 years down the road Ryan Murray is a Norris Trophy Candidate playing for the Blue Jackets and Nail Yakupov is a second line, 70 point winger playing for the Oilers. You'd likely argue, at this point, that the Oilers made a mistake in taking Yakupov over Murray but you'd be wrong. The world isn't that linear.

Given that the rest of the hockey world rated Yakupov higher than Murray, had the Oilers taken Murray first overall, some, if not all, of the following would have happened:

1) The organizations who were in discussions with the Oilers to trade the pick would come to believe that the Oilers won't call their bluff in negotiations, seriously degrading the Oilers' ability to make future deals.
2) Murray fails to reach his full potential as an Oiler because the extreme pressure of being an unpopular pick coupled with the normal development time for a defenseman poisoned his ability to flourish here.
3) The relationship between the team and its fans is strained creating a toxic environment for everyone.
4) A number of unforeseen roster changes come to pass making the 70 point winger more valuable than the Norris Trophy winning defenseman

Katz has given no indication that he is interested in becoming as involved in the day to day operations of the club as Ballard was for the Leafs. And I agree with you that if he wants his team to be successful he should leave nearly all of the hockey decisions to the hockey people. However, this particular situation was unique, his hockey people waded into an area that could have caused irreparable harm to his franchise and as a self-made billionaire with a law degree he was almost certainly the most qualified person in the room to consider the wider ramifications and tell them they were off base.

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Old
06-23-2012, 01:48 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
Everyone makes mistakes. As such, letting people who understand how to perform a function, perform a function with no oversight is a sure way to fail.

Additionally, when an issue is this significant, there are larger issues at play. Issues that you can't reasonably expect a group of
people with a circle of competence limited to the evaluation of young hockey players to fully consider.

For the sake of argument, let's say the Oilers' scouting staff was right
and 3 years down the road Ryan Murray is a Norris Trophy Candidate playing for the Blue Jackets and Nail Yakupov is a second line, 70 point winger playing for the Oilers. You'd likely argue, at this point, that the Oilers
made a mistake in taking Yakupov over Murray but you'd be wrong. The world isn't that linear.

Given that the rest of the hockey world rated Yakupov higher than Murray, had the Oilers taken Murray first overall, some, if not all, of the following would have happened:

1) The organizations who were in discussions with the Oilers to trade the pick would come to believe that the Oilers won't call their bluff
in negotiations, seriously degrading the Oilers' ability to make future deals.
2) Murray fails to reach his full
potential as an Oiler because the extreme pressure of being an unpopular pick coupled with the normal development time for a
defenseman poisoned his ability to flourish here.
3) The relationship between the
team and its fans is strained creating a toxic environment for everyone.
4) A number of unforeseen roster changes come to pass making the
70 point winger more valuable than the Norris Trophy winning defenseman

Katz has given no indication that
he is interested in becoming as involved in the day to day operations of the club as Ballard was for the Leafs. And I agree with you that if he wants his tea
to be successful he should leave nearly all of the hockey decisions to the hockey people. However, this particular situation was unique,
his hockey people waded into an area that could have caused irreparable harm to his franchise and as a self-made billionaire with a law degree he was almost
certainly the most qualified person in the room to consider the wider ramifications and tell them they were off base.
Solid post! Well thought out and couldn't agree more.

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06-23-2012, 01:49 AM
  #43
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All they need to do is read HFOil, then make the decision. That's how they should conduct their business from now on.

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06-23-2012, 01:54 AM
  #44
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All they need to do is read TreenasOil, then make the decision. That's how they should conduct their business from now on.
Fixed!

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06-23-2012, 02:01 AM
  #45
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Nah, Katz didn't have to say anything.

Pretty obvious the scouts were on board with Yakupov, and Tambo and Lowe took it down to the wire with maybe over-ruling them with the organization need stuff.

They didn't, Yakupov is an oiler, it's all good.

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06-23-2012, 02:34 AM
  #46
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Uneasy? It looked pretty clear to me in interviews that both Tambo and MacGregor love the guy for his skill and just his personality and are happy that he's an Oiler. They're genuinely excited to see what he'll do with the other talent. Maybe this pick speeds up or encourages Hall towards being the 2nd line center.

From my own perspective I had Dumba and Rielly ranked better D than Murray so I would have lost my damn mind if they'd have picked Murray #1.

I don't think Murray will be the best defenseman from this draft (he might even end up behind a few more guys) and will just expedite Scott Howson getting fired in CBJ. How did they not pick Galchenyuk?!!! He was perfect for them.

All this said, do the Oilers wish that the consensus #1 this year was an elite D or a big C? Probably. But the consensus #1 was neither. And this year it was an overwhelming consensus compared to the previous two years.

If they had a crystal ball and a time machine they probably would have gone Seguin, Larsson, Yakupov these past three drafts but instead went who for they felt was the BPA every time and I think it will work out anyway. There's no way the Oilers were ever going to get guys like Hall, RNH and Yakupov in trades.

The best player by consensus was Yakupov and when you get a pick that Tambo said after was a lucky gift, you don't mess it up. And if Katz did override Tambo and Klowe, especially if they wanted to pick Murray, then he should dump them on their behinds and be the GM.

I honestly think all year that the Oilers wanted to pick Murray or Dumba or Reinhart or even Grigorenko, the thought of getting Yakupov probably didn't even cross their minds, but when they won the lottery and none of the other players were honestly even close to Yakupov as players and prospects they were left with no choice. BPA. Thank goodness.


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06-23-2012, 02:44 AM
  #47
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If Katz did intervene then he's got a drink waiting from me. Billionaire or not. Finally some common sense out of management.

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06-23-2012, 02:55 AM
  #48
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Wouldn't surprise me if Lowe and Tambo were pushing for Murray after the World Chanpionships, but Stu insisting Yak is BPA. Katz's kids were probably pumping up Yakupov all year as per the rest if the Oilers fan base.

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06-23-2012, 04:03 AM
  #49
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If Katz did intervene then he's got a drink waiting from me. Billionaire or not. Finally some common sense out of management.
Same here. Finally someone smacks some sense into Tambo and KLowe. If it's MacT then I can finally forgive everything he's done when he was coaching. Maybe MacT for GM?

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06-23-2012, 04:03 AM
  #50
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Wouldn't surprise me if Lowe and Tambo were pushing for Murray after the World Chanpionships, but Stu insisting Yak is BPA. Katz's kids were probably pumping up Yakupov all year as per the rest if the Oilers fan base.
Might that mean that his kids are smarter than the men that he pays millions of dollars to manage the team if they didn't want Nail?

I'm just happy that we got Nail, how it got to that point doesn't really matter anymore.

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