HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Washington Capitals
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

2012 16th Overall - Tom Wilson, Right Wing

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-18-2013, 12:52 PM
  #101
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,593
vCash: 500
Guys with certain parts of their games already NHL ready get sent back to juniors all the time with the mandate to work on what isn't NHL ready. Why everyone assume the Caps wouldn't task Wilson the same way I have no idea.

If the idea is that all he will ever be is a 4th line tough guy then sure keep him up but if the idea is that he has enough actual skill to be more than that then he needs to develop those skills a good amount more and frankly junior is the better place for that IMO. Send him down and tell him they don't want him simply relying on his size and strength offensively but to instead learn to beat guys with skill as well as the usual learn to be better without the puck.

Millhaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 12:59 PM
  #102
RandyHolt
I Won a Contest
 
RandyHolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Poland
Posts: 25,546
vCash: 900
No one assumed Millhaus, but the writing was on the wall.

You wouldn't find it odd that we traded MP and Forsberg yet had no intention of keeping him up this year?

The onus is on using him. We seem to have no problem giving MJ uncontested top line time, even if the line struggles to score at ES.

I may be the only one but I have no problem, ZIPPY, sticking Chimera Fehr or Ward on our 4th line, to give him a 3rd line spot. And I also would have no problem at all seeing him get time at 2RW. Troy played on the 4th line not long ago. He can still be our vocal leader and PP ace.

RandyHolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 01:02 PM
  #103
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 28,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Guys with certain parts of their games already NHL ready get sent back to juniors all the time with the mandate to work on what isn't NHL ready. Why everyone assume the Caps wouldn't task Wilson the same way I have no idea.

If the idea is that all he will ever be is a 4th line tough guy then sure keep him up but if the idea is that he has enough actual skill to be more than that then he needs to develop those skills a good amount more and frankly junior is the better place for that IMO. Send him down and tell him they don't want him simply relying on his size and strength offensively but to instead learn to beat guys with skill as well as the usual learn to be better without the puck.
100% agree, but if you believe McPhee, he wouldn't be getting that hockey development as he'd spend the entire season getting run. What then, still send him down and risk injuries/suspensions, etc?

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 01:16 PM
  #104
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
No one assumed Millhaus, but the writing was on the wall.
No but everyone on the 'keep Wilson up' side seems to feel if he was sent down all he would be doing is fighting smaller/weaker guys.

He has so much more to work on if he is ever going to reach the potential that made the Caps spend a 1st rounder on him. Yes he has NHL size and strength and appears to have NHL fighting ability. The rest of his game is not NHL ready IMO.

Millhaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 01:19 PM
  #105
Hivemind
We're Touched
 
Hivemind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 15,481
vCash: 500
People talk about him developing "bad habits" in the OHL. Well, he's going to further his current bad habits in Washington. Without linemates who can get him the puck, all he's doing is continuing to chase the hit. That's really the extent of his game right now, is flying around hoping to knock somebody through the glass. He doesn't follow the play so much as chase the man. It's something that the Plymouth coaches have talked about, and it's something that's painfully obvious to anyone who watches him.

Hivemind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 01:28 PM
  #106
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
100% agree, but if you believe McPhee, he wouldn't be getting that hockey development as he'd spend the entire season getting run. What then, still send him down and risk injuries/suspensions, etc?
And just like many guys need to learn not to take on all comers Wilson can work on that in juniors also.

Millhaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 01:37 PM
  #107
RandyHolt
I Won a Contest
 
RandyHolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Poland
Posts: 25,546
vCash: 900
Wilson is raw. We all know this. What we hope from him, to become the next Lucic, is setting a high bar no matter where he plays. If he failed, either side would be blamed but neither would account for, he is just not Lucic.

If you could grade the experiences / skills learned of NHL vs OHL, it would be in categories. Here are a few of the pros.
  • Learning to play against men, not boys.
  • All the practice time, and dare I think it is far greater than TOI, is done with NHL players. Is him practicing with viable NHL centers a complete waste of time, even if he ends up with Beagle for the games? Of course not. Its more than game TOI where he is learning.
  • When time comes that George pares down RW, he already knows Nicks tendencies, Grabs, all the boys.
  • He has learned the famed and complex Oates system. Gets A1 advice from Oates.
  • He will learn NHL tendencies, styles, and players.

Someone please do the counter point. Save a year on the ELC.. George does not care about money.

RandyHolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 01:44 PM
  #108
Halpysback
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,922
vCash: 500
Lucic became Lucic because he was playing on a tough ****ing team that backed him up when he was learning the ropes.

Even if Wilson becomes Lucic with this organization (he won't), he'll be comparatively useless in that role unless they get a 4-5 other tough players to back him up.

Replacing Leaders of Men and the top line ballerina with non-pansies would be a good start.

Halpysback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 01:47 PM
  #109
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
If you could grade the experiences / skills learned of NHL vs OHL, it would be in categories. Here are a few of the pros.
  • Learning to play against men, not boys.
  • All the practice time, and dare I think it is far greater than TOI, is done with NHL players. Is him practicing with viable NHL centers a complete waste of time, even if he ends up with Beagle for the games? Of course not. Its more than game TOI where he is learning.
  • When time comes that George pares down RW, he already knows Nicks tendencies, Grabs, all the boys.
  • He has learned the famed and complex Oates system. Gets A1 advice from Oates.
  • He will learn NHL tendencies, styles, and players.
Every one of those applies to anyone coming out of juniors yet the usual procedure is to send them back and many of those kids are much better hockey players than Wilson.

And if all that mattered so much why didn't they keep him up coming out of the lockout last year as they would all have been equally true then and he would have had a step up as he was already halfway through his junior season?

Millhaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 01:51 PM
  #110
RandyHolt
I Won a Contest
 
RandyHolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Poland
Posts: 25,546
vCash: 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
why didn't they keep him up coming out of the lockout last year as they would all have been equally true then and he would have had a step up as he was already halfway through his junior season?

RandyHolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 02:50 PM
  #111
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 28,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
People talk about him developing "bad habits" in the OHL. Well, he's going to further his current bad habits in Washington. Without linemates who can get him the puck, all he's doing is continuing to chase the hit. That's really the extent of his game right now, is flying around hoping to knock somebody through the glass. He doesn't follow the play so much as chase the man. It's something that the Plymouth coaches have talked about, and it's something that's painfully obvious to anyone who watches him.
That's a headscratcher idea you'd have us all believe. The point of him being up in the NHL is to learn from the best PRO examples he has to play with and the best coaches. Bad habits would seem to be one thing that would be worked on immediately if not eliminated pretty quickly. His job on the 4th line is to be a wrecking ball and soak things up for now.

And whoever compared him to Lucic, I don't see it. I think more of a Hartnell comparison makes sense. Lucic is just a monster physically with his build AND he's got the gritty attitude.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 02:54 PM
  #112
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 28,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Every one of those applies to anyone coming out of juniors yet the usual procedure is to send them back and many of those kids are much better hockey players than Wilson.

And if all that mattered so much why didn't they keep him up coming out of the lockout last year as they would all have been equally true then and he would have had a step up as he was already halfway through his junior season?
Except he's a year older physically and now there's roster space for him.

I think this comes down to McPhee believing this guy going to earn a larger role quickly and he needs the grit and style Wilson brings sooner rather than later. If anything, just a slight reach of desperation right now, but I can see the merits of both sides of the argument honestly.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 03:06 PM
  #113
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
I think this comes down to McPhee believing this guy going to earn a larger role quickly and he needs the grit and style Wilson brings sooner rather than later. If anything, just a slight reach of desperation right now, but I can see the merits of both sides of the argument honestly.
If the Caps need what Wilson is currently bringing to the table then they are in as worse place than they currently appear IMO as I have seen a large kid who looks way out of his depth as far as actually contributing to a hockey team being successful goes.

But McPhee and Oates made their bed by shipping Perreault out to make room for a not ready for prime time, IMO, Wilson and now they need to shoehorn guys into not their best positions/roles and making it more difficult to be successful on the ice.

Millhaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 03:25 PM
  #114
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 28,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
If the Caps need what Wilson is currently bringing to the table then they are in as worse place than they currently appear IMO as I have seen a large kid who looks way out of his depth as far as actually contributing to a hockey team being successful goes.

But McPhee and Oates made their bed by shipping Perreault out to make room for a not ready for prime time, IMO, Wilson and now they need to shoehorn guys into not their best positions/roles and making it more difficult to be successful on the ice.
Worse than 2-5, 5th worst in the NHL? Clearly this team needs help. You're right about the MP85 trade though, they simply cleared room for Wilson and have few alternatives now no matter what.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 03:32 PM
  #115
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Worse than 2-5, 5th worst in the NHL? Clearly this team needs help. You're right about the MP85 trade though, they simply cleared room for Wilson and have few alternatives now no matter what.
Yeah I am having a difficult time dealing with knowing this could have been the forward lineup:
Johansson-Backstrom-Ovechkin
Laich-Grabovski-Brouwer
Erat-Perreault-Fehr
Chimera-Beagle/Latta-Ward

Or however someone would want to shuffle up those lines. That is a much stronger forward group. Now they have nobody who's best position is center to play on the 3rd line and balance the lineup.

Millhaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 03:54 PM
  #116
RandyHolt
I Won a Contest
 
RandyHolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Poland
Posts: 25,546
vCash: 900
IMMSMC, I was terrified that the Caps were going to send Stevens back to Kitchener. Anyone have good examples of the capitals sending a guy back (same age / physically ready) and going on to a fine career? I can't recall one. I know league wide there are many but lets talk Caps. Or the last forward we rushed and tanked. Forward is easier than D (Eminger).

It's not an exact science, of course. It was nice to see George stealing my rationale about keeping Wilson up, that he would be fighting or challenged to the point that I contend it would be better to turn the other cheek.

Ironically, like they asked Stevens to do. Show them that smile. Grow a pair and call me kid.

RandyHolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 04:22 PM
  #117
Liberati0n*
Full Hammock
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 8,146
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
IMMSMC, I was terrified that the Caps were going to send Stevens back to Kitchener. Anyone have good examples of the capitals sending a guy back (same age / physically ready) and going on to a fine career? I can't recall one. I know league wide there are many but lets talk Caps. Or the last forward we rushed and tanked. Forward is easier than D (Eminger).

It's not an exact science, of course. It was nice to see George stealing my rationale about keeping Wilson up, that he would be fighting or challenged to the point that I contend it would be better to turn the other cheek.

Ironically, like they asked Stevens to do. Show them that smile. Grow a pair and call me kid.
The Eminger example isn't irrelevant just because he was a defenseman. There are plenty of examples of players apparently derailed by being rushed, and not many of patience hurting them, that I can think of.

Liberati0n* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 04:39 PM
  #118
Hivemind
We're Touched
 
Hivemind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 15,481
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
IMMSMC, I was terrified that the Caps were going to send Stevens back to Kitchener. Anyone have good examples of the capitals sending a guy back (same age / physically ready) and going on to a fine career? I can't recall one. I know league wide there are many but lets talk Caps. Or the last forward we rushed and tanked. Forward is easier than D (Eminger).
Green, Gordon, and Alzner were all eligible for the AHL in their second year removed from the draft thanks to their birthdates. Gordon did see significant NHL action in that season, though.
Neuvirth and Grubauer were both sent back, but goalies are obviously a different story.
Eakin was sent back and is looking terrific in Dallas so far, but it's still early.
Schultz was sent back, and while initial returns were pretty good, he never took the next step and eventually regressed. Hard to pin the decision to send him back as the failure of his progression, though.
Fehr was sent back, and results have been inconsistent and injury plagued. Injuries are clearly the story with his development, more than any other factor.
Eminger was kept up, then sent back, and an umitigated disaster all around.

To get a true success story of a Capital being sent back, I guess you have to go back to Brendan Witt in 1993. However, the Capitals piss-poor drafted in the 90s and early 2000s had a big impact on that, as has the fact that a majority of their early round picks in the recent years have come from Europe (or the USHL in the case of Carlson).

Hivemind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 04:58 PM
  #119
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,433
vCash: 500
what part of Wilson's game that is not significantly effected by his size advantage would you think the caps would like to see him work on?

txpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 05:07 PM
  #120
RandyHolt
I Won a Contest
 
RandyHolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Poland
Posts: 25,546
vCash: 900
Wow thanks for the history lesson Myst.

So it seems like a relatively small sample size, one way or the other. It seems to make sense to focus at forward, so we have Eakin and Fehr.

It would seem the overall health of the org is in play. The Eminger years he may have been doomed. Stevens sneaking into that 3LD spot behind Langer and Engbloom for a team on the rise (finally) was a perfect spot for him.

We may think Wilson in a 4th line role limited TOI is not good, but he has no pressure. Baby steps with minimal chance for failures.Let him crash into the walls of the playpen for a while. Versus say if we had no RWs and he was forced into top 6 role and failed miserably.

Maybe its best he is buried right now. I expect Oates to slowly add to his TOI as the season progresses. It was awesome seeing in the slot on the PP in a close game.

RandyHolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 05:08 PM
  #121
Paulinho
No Man's Sky
 
Paulinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Earth
Country: United States
Posts: 2,302
vCash: 500
Should have been sent down. Comedy of errors with this organization every year.

Paulinho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 05:09 PM
  #122
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
what part of Wilson's game that is not significantly effected by his size advantage would you think the caps would like to see him work on?
What part of Wilson's game that is not significantly effected by his size advantage would you think the Caps would not like to see him work on...?

Millhaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 06:55 PM
  #123
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,433
vCash: 500
answer a question with a question. it gets us nowhere. the caps think they have made the right decision. they think he is working on what they want him to work on under their watch. you think he would be learning more at junior. what would he get better at?


Last edited by txpd: 10-18-2013 at 07:01 PM.
txpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 07:09 PM
  #124
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 28,602
vCash: 500
Milhaus believes he'd go it juniors and dangle and develop a fancy offensive game. I don't really see it myself for that type of player.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2013, 07:43 PM
  #125
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,433
vCash: 500
Wilson is a power forward. that means battling for goals in front of the net. I have seen nowhere that he is supposed to be a sniper.

He's not going to learn how to get position and keep his stick free against 16 year olds if he is already a handful for an nhl regular to handle.

otherwise, what is he missing? he is learning the speed of the nhl and learning to read nhl play. he is learning angles to hit an nhl player. he is learning how fast the puck moves on an nhl forecheck.

txpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:46 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.