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DEFENSE ONLY 2012 NHL Draft | Jun 23 | 10:00a | Rounds 2-7

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Old
06-24-2012, 08:01 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Don't think those disappointed with the Isles draft are positioning themselves as experts, rather, they are following what the "experts" are saying. Being that the Isles are not known as being a great drafting team, I have more confidence in those "experts" than in the Isle's brain trust (how's that for an oxymoron, Isle's brain trust).

Have the Isles come away with some nice prospects since 2008, yeah they have. 2008 besides the Isle's 1st round pick, it was a solid draft, Ness, Hamonic, Ullstrom, Donovan, Poulin & Martin were good choices (or hits), Toews, Trivino, Niemi, Petrov (maybe), Bailey (maybe), Spurgeon and Dibenedetto were misses. So the 2008 draft was a 50% success.

2009, Tavares, a no brainer home run, Nilsson looks like a stud goalie, hit, Cizikas, a hit, Lee, a hit, De haan, a possible hit, Koskinen, Klementeyev are misses.

2010, Niederreiter, Nelson and Kabanov all look like hits, Clark, Dehart & Cody Rosen, horrendous, let's go golfin because we don't care terrible picks.

2011, the best draft by Snow, all picks could win up Islanders.

2012 draft, Reinhart & Pelech, great picks, Pokka possible good pick, the rest, see 2010 after Kabanov. Terrible draft overall.

The Isle's track record is pretty bad under Snow, the misses were major misses, and players passed up have become excellent NHL'ers (for instance, passed Derek Stepan for Trivino and Ness in the 2nd round and passed up Adam Henrique 3 times in round 3 2008 for Toews, Niemi and Petrov). Drafted Koskinen instead of Ryan O'Reilly, Anton Lander, Stefan Elliot, Dmitri Orlov in 2009.

Not the kind of drafting record I have confidence in overall.
I asked you this before, but I guess you missed it, did you see Jesse Graham play? What about Doyle Somerby? Jake Bischoff? If the answer is no, then just stop talking like you have seen them play.

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06-24-2012, 08:01 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Don't think those disappointed with the Isles draft are positioning themselves as experts, rather, they are following what the "experts" are saying. Being that the Isles are not known as being a great drafting team, I have more confidence in those "experts" than in the Isle's brain trust (how's that for an oxymoron, Isle's brain trust).

Have the Isles come away with some nice prospects since 2008, yeah they have. 2008 besides the Isle's 1st round pick, it was a solid draft, Ness, Hamonic, Ullstrom, Donovan, Poulin & Martin were good choices (or hits), Toews, Trivino, Niemi, Petrov (maybe), Bailey (maybe), Spurgeon and Dibenedetto were misses. So the 2008 draft was a 50% success.

2009, Tavares, a no brainer home run, Nilsson looks like a stud goalie, hit, Cizikas, a hit, Lee, a hit, De haan, a possible hit, Koskinen, Klementeyev are misses.

2010, Niederreiter, Nelson and Kabanov all look like hits, Clark, Dehart & Cody Rosen, horrendous, let's go golfin because we don't care terrible picks.

2011, the best draft by Snow, all picks could win up Islanders.

2012 draft, Reinhart & Pelech, great picks, Pokka possible good pick, the rest, see 2010 after Kabanov. Terrible draft overall.

The Isle's track record is pretty bad under Snow, the misses were major misses, and players passed up have become excellent NHL'ers (for instance, passed Derek Stepan for Trivino and Ness in the 2nd round and passed up Adam Henrique 3 times in round 3 2008 for Toews, Niemi and Petrov). Drafted Koskinen instead of Ryan O'Reilly, Anton Lander, Stefan Elliot, Dmitri Orlov in 2009.

Not the kind of drafting record I have confidence in overall.
Just curious how come you think Bailey (201 NHL GP) is a maybe and Spurgeon (123 NHL GP) is a bust and yet Kabanov, Lee, Reinhart & Pelech are great picks when they haven't even sniffed the NHL yet??

Sounds like someone's been drinking the "experts" kool-aid...

The Devils made a great pick with Henrique.. good job.. you sound like Piere Maguire harping on the Parise pick, while failing to mention the other teams that passed on him as well.. Using your logic, the other 29 teams that passed on Matt Martin until the Isles took him with 148 were all morons as well..

Speak for yourself when you say "don't think those disappointed with the Isles draft are positioning themselves as experts'.. thats EXACTLY what it sounds like you're doing

Even the real "experts" will tell you that it takes a few years to grade a draft..

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06-24-2012, 08:03 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by IslandersFan View Post
Just curious how come you think Bailey (201 NHL GP) is a maybe and Spurgeon (123 NHL GP) is a bust and yet Kabanov, Lee, Reinhart & Pelech are great picks when they haven't even sniffed the NHL yet??

Sounds like someone's been drinking the "experts" kool-aid...

The Devils made a great pick with Henrique.. good job.. you sound like Piere Maguire harping on the Parise pick, while failing to mention the other teams that passed on him as well.. Using your logic, the other 29 teams that passed on Matt Martin until the Isles took him with 148 were all morons as well..

Speak for yourself when you say "don't think those disappointed with the Isles draft are positioning themselves as experts'.. thats EXACTLY what it sounds like you're doing

Even the real "experts" will tell you that it takes a few years to grade a draft..
Because he has no clue what he is talking about?

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06-24-2012, 08:07 PM
  #404
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The fact that your bragging/being cocky shows that you are on the same level as him. Get over yourself.
Haha, fair enough you have my apologies. I was right you were wrong. Good call!

Whoops, should have quoted Konk's post, this was meant for Konk...

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06-24-2012, 08:58 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by ledzep1212 View Post
I asked you this before, but I guess you missed it, did you see Jesse Graham play? What about Doyle Somerby? Jake Bischoff? If the answer is no, then just stop talking like you have seen them play.
Who cares if I saw them or not, the experts have. The experts put out ratings, and I don't care if you can see in the future or not (gimme the lottery numbers please), Ludufus was a TERRIBLE pick, I wil print this on paper and eat this in front of all of you if he even ever plays ONE NHL game. It doesn't take a scouting genius to see they went WAY off the board with that pick.

Pokka was rated after Thrower and Finn, not a terrible pick, but not a great pick.

All the rest besides Pelech, throw away picks like 2010.

I'll wait 5 years to say I told you so, but believe me, I will. I hope and pray I'm wrong because I love the Islanders.

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06-24-2012, 09:16 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Who cares if I saw them or not, the experts have. The experts put out ratings, and I don't care if you can see in the future or not (gimme the lottery numbers please), Ludufus was a TERRIBLE pick, I wil print this on paper and eat this in front of all of you if he even ever plays ONE NHL game. It doesn't take a scouting genius to see they went WAY off the board with that pick.

Pokka was rated after Thrower and Finn, not a terrible pick, but not a great pick.

All the rest besides Pelech, throw away picks like 2010.

I'll wait 5 years to say I told you so, but believe me, I will. I hope and pray I'm wrong because I love the Islanders.
Did I praise the Ludoc pick? Because I kinda thought I was praising the Graham, Somerby, and Bischoff picks, could be wrong though.

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06-24-2012, 09:22 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Who cares if I saw them or not, the experts have. The experts put out ratings, and I don't care if you can see in the future or not (gimme the lottery numbers please), Ludufus was a TERRIBLE pick, I wil print this on paper and eat this in front of all of you if he even ever plays ONE NHL game. It doesn't take a scouting genius to see they went WAY off the board with that pick.

Pokka was rated after Thrower and Finn, not a terrible pick, but not a great pick.

All the rest besides Pelech, throw away picks like 2010.

I'll wait 5 years to say I told you so, but believe me, I will. I hope and pray I'm wrong because I love the Islanders.
And your not trying to see the future? Also how have the Isles been bad at drafting? If you want to go by what the "experts" say thenyou would know that the Islanders are very good at drafting.

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06-24-2012, 09:26 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Who cares if I saw them or not, the experts have. The experts put out ratings, and I don't care if you can see in the future or not (gimme the lottery numbers please), Ludufus was a TERRIBLE pick, I wil print this on paper and eat this in front of all of you if he even ever plays ONE NHL game. It doesn't take a scouting genius to see they went WAY off the board with that pick.

Pokka was rated after Thrower and Finn, not a terrible pick, but not a great pick.

All the rest besides Pelech, throw away picks like 2010.

I'll wait 5 years to say I told you so, but believe me, I will. I hope and pray I'm wrong because I love the Islanders.
Yup, we are pretty bad at drafting.....

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/

Guess those walk on players made us #3????

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06-24-2012, 09:26 PM
  #409
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BTW, read the weakness part of my link. I think they addressed that too.

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06-24-2012, 11:08 PM
  #410
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I don't think fans were negative towards the Hamonic pick in 2008. My recollection of Hamonic was that he was largely ignored on the board b/c everyone was excited about getting all the guys rated highly by ISS (Trivino, Ness, Toews, Petrov, etc.).

That's really a lesson that we shouldn't get too wrapped up in the published lists. All those ISS guys we were excited about haven't really panned out, but Hamonic, Donovan, Martin and Ullstrom are players.

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06-24-2012, 11:41 PM
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Who cares if I saw them or not, the experts have. The experts put out ratings, and I don't care if you can see in the future or not (gimme the lottery numbers please), Ludufus was a TERRIBLE pick, I wil print this on paper and eat this in front of all of you if he even ever plays ONE NHL game. It doesn't take a scouting genius to see they went WAY off the board with that pick.

Pokka was rated after Thrower and Finn, not a terrible pick, but not a great pick.

All the rest besides Pelech, throw away picks like 2010.

I'll wait 5 years to say I told you so, but believe me, I will. I hope and pray I'm wrong because I love the Islanders.
So if a team makes picks that the "experts" feel isn't the best player at that spot, then they had a terrible draft?

Then I guess 30 teams just had a terrible draft. Every single team trusts its own scouts more than the various rankings on the internet and independent scouting services, and all 30 GMs have no problem taking who their scouts think is the best, regardless of what the "experts" think.

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Originally Posted by doublechili View Post
I don't think fans were negative towards the Hamonic pick in 2008. My recollection of Hamonic was that he was largely ignored on the board b/c everyone was excited about getting all the guys rated highly by ISS (Trivino, Ness, Toews, Petrov, etc.).

That's really a lesson that we shouldn't get too wrapped up in the published lists. All those ISS guys we were excited about haven't really panned out, but Hamonic, Donovan, Martin and Ullstrom are players.
A lot of posters on here were pretty upset about the Hamonic pick, saying he didn't have the upside to warrant a 2nd round pick and that we didn't need another bottom pairing Dman.

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06-24-2012, 11:50 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Who cares if I saw them or not, the experts have. The experts put out ratings, and I don't care if you can see in the future or not (gimme the lottery numbers please), Ludufus was a TERRIBLE pick, I wil print this on paper and eat this in front of all of you if he even ever plays ONE NHL game. It doesn't take a scouting genius to see they went WAY off the board with that pick.

Pokka was rated after Thrower and Finn, not a terrible pick, but not a great pick.

All the rest besides Pelech, throw away picks like 2010.

I'll wait 5 years to say I told you so, but believe me, I will. I hope and pray I'm wrong because I love the Islanders.
But when do u see all picks pan out? It's always a gamble. Hell not all first rounders for every team has panned out. You never know what's going to happen. One of these late round picks could be a stud for all we know. Just have patence before u say their bad picks

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06-25-2012, 12:47 AM
  #413
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Basically, if Griffen and one other guy pans out, this draft will be a homerun. THis draft addressed a big organizational need. Hopefully a few of these pan out...a lot of people didnt like the sundstrom pick, but he's been fantastic, so...lets not pretend we know something more than the scouts and let the chips fall where they may....

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06-25-2012, 12:54 AM
  #414
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THis draft addressed a big organizational need.
Big being the key word. lol

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06-25-2012, 12:59 AM
  #415
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Big being the key word. lol
LOL Huge, massive, enormous, Redwood style defense.

becausethatworkedsowelllasttimewetriedthat

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06-25-2012, 01:11 AM
  #416
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Who the players are or what their potential is aside....

after the Isles grabbed Leduc with their fourth pick, I thought "alright already - the Isles have other needs"...

after Sommerby was taken with their fifth, I was admittedly agitated...

after they announced Graham as their sixth, well I kind of had one of them "Tincup" moments and it was like "oh hell... go for it Garth, might as well grab another.. In ten years from now, Isles fans might not remember who the hell was even drafted this year, but they will likely always remember the 7 for 7 draft"
Look at the bright side - they didn't draft 7 goaltenders

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06-25-2012, 01:56 AM
  #417
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Kind of strange to draft all the same position in the draft...kind of goes against the drafting the best player available, and more of drafting based on need. With that said, I think they did pretty well. I would have liked Murray, but when it became obvious we weren't getting him I think we did pretty well. I don't expect any homeruns, but solid return.

Oh and no the Islanders haven't been good at drafting lately. They've had 1 player reaching/exceeding expectations so far, and that was a give-me (Tavares). Okposo was a good pick too. Bailey/Nino so far look like busts (especially Bailey, Nino still has plenty of time-but so far, no good). Drafting and building a "good" talent pool will be proven if and only when we start to rise in the standings.

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06-25-2012, 06:58 AM
  #418
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Who cares if I saw them or not, the experts have. The experts put out ratings, and I don't care if you can see in the future or not (gimme the lottery numbers please), Ludufus was a TERRIBLE pick, I wil print this on paper and eat this in front of all of you if he even ever plays ONE NHL game. It doesn't take a scouting genius to see they went WAY off the board with that pick.

Pokka was rated after Thrower and Finn, not a terrible pick, but not a great pick.

All the rest besides Pelech, throw away picks like 2010.

I'll wait 5 years to say I told you so, but believe me, I will. I hope and pray I'm wrong because I love the Islanders.
There will always be players who slip through the cracks. If you look at the Devils drafts since 2006 only 1 player (Tedenby) has played more than 100 games as a Devil and only 1 other (Halischuk) has played more than 100 NHL games period. In that same time the Islanders have drafted 6 who have played 100 or more games with the Islanders and 1 (Spurgeon) who went elsewhere and has played in more than 100 games. The Islanders have also been far better in recent years finding NHL players after Round 1 than the Devils

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06-25-2012, 07:44 AM
  #419
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There will always be players who slip through the cracks. If you look at the Devils drafts since 2006 only 1 player (Tedenby) has played more than 100 games as a Devil and only 1 other (Halischuk) has played more than 100 NHL games period. In that same time the Islanders have drafted 6 who have played 100 or more games with the Islanders and 1 (Spurgeon) who went elsewhere and has played in more than 100 games. The Islanders have also been far better in recent years finding NHL players after Round 1 than the Devils
While I do agree with you, there is a big difference between isles and devils. The devils have players that take time to develop in minors, while some players are rushed into service with the isles like bailey, thus getting them to 100 games before mayb the should be.

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06-25-2012, 07:47 AM
  #420
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Being that the Isles are not known as being a great drafting team, I have more confidence in those "experts" than in the Isle's brain trust (how's that for an oxymoron, Isle's brain trust).
Actually, since Snow has been GM, the Isles have a very good reputation with respect to their drafting.

Very good...

At this point, their 2008 draft has been incredibly successful. Rarely does one draft produce that many NHL-capable players.


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2008 besides the Isle's 1st round pick, it was a solid draft, Ness, Hamonic, Ullstrom, Donovan, Poulin & Martin were good choices (or hits), Toews, Trivino, Niemi, Petrov (maybe), Bailey (maybe), Spurgeon and Dibenedetto were misses. So the 2008 draft was a 50% success.
Welp, Spurgeon was anything but a miss. We just didn't sign him. He's arguably one of the top Islander picks coming out of that draft. Dibenedetto can't necessarily be called a miss either, since a mid-round pick who can play fourth line minutes in some capacity is still a good return. That he has now decided to go to Austria with so many ??? on the Isles' lower lines is, quizocally, quite a questionable move on his behalf.

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2012 draft, Reinhart & Pelech, great picks, Pokka possible good pick, the rest, see 2010 after Kabanov. Terrible draft overall.
Ahhh, now I see why so many have responded to your post.

We're not even close to being able to determine this. Not close. The oddity is simply that using all your picks on one position is almost unheard of. The first three boys are obviously kids who this team will have signed and in the system within their two summers of rights possession.

To compare the remaining 4 boys to what happened in 2010 is where I think you're making your biggest miscue. That's very premature. As opposed to that draft, where Jankowski was quickly dismissed in no time flat, the taking of several big, project players has rhyme and reason, especially if a bigger move involving Dmen should be made within the next season (and in light of no less than Streit and Visnovsky's contracts running out). Grahame is as decent a decent a sixth round shot as there is, even if it there is reason to see that pick as being similar to the DeHart pick.

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The Isle's track record is pretty bad under Snow, the misses were major misses, and players passed up have become excellent NHL'ers (for instance, passed Derek Stepan for Trivino and Ness in the 2nd round and passed up Adam Henrique 3 times in round 3 2008 for Toews, Niemi and Petrov). Drafted Koskinen instead of Ryan O'Reilly, Anton Lander, Stefan Elliot, Dmitri Orlov in 2009.
Well, even your evaluative list of Islanders' picks contradicts the bolded section above. In general, getting two NHLers per draft is a pretty solid return.

To be using Stepan and Henrique at this juncture is pure, pure hindsight. If anyone knew they would even be what they've become, they'd surely have been taken elsewhere in the draft. They didn't necessarily show that when they were 18.

Koskinen was coming off a 21-9 reconrd in the SM-Liiga. There was documented interest in him by a number of teams. I personally wanted other players at that juncture, but Koskinen himself certainly warranted being taken thereabouts and when it comes to goalies, teams will give them a varied ranking of importance. It's just a special position.

In total, the above summation is simply reactionary. A statement about this weekend's draft being 'terrible' in reactionary at best.


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 06-25-2012 at 08:02 AM.
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06-25-2012, 08:39 AM
  #421
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Oh and no the Islanders haven't been good at drafting lately. They've had 1 player reaching/exceeding expectations so far, and that was a give-me (Tavares). Okposo was a good pick too. Bailey/Nino so far look like busts (especially Bailey, Nino still has plenty of time-but so far, no good). Drafting and building a "good" talent pool will be proven if and only when we start to rise in the standings.
What you mean is, the Isles haven't gotten gamechangers yet in their drafts except for the gimme.

But when it comes to getting NHLers of some sort, there isn't much anyone can complain about in Snow's time here, granted the Isles also have good reason to get their picks here sooner rather than later.

Also, really gotta harp on the use of the word 'bust'. A bust would indicate a kid who was considered a surefire NHLer and then absolutely didn't make it to the show for/in any extended and/or impactful capacity. It is also highly dependent upon where a kid was drafted, because it's usually a word that is only used to describe 1st rounders, predominantly high first rounders.

In no way, shape or form can Bailey be called a bust. If anything, you can simply say he's been too average for what was fans and management 'supposedly' had hoped of him.

We're still talking about a kid who has played four NHL seasons and currently ranks in the top 10 in scoring amongst ALL players from his draft year - albeit it's not even been five years since his drafting.

Nothing since 2009 can be called a bust in any capacity at this point.

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06-25-2012, 08:52 AM
  #422
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It's a draft. We can debate the merits of these players for years, who knows whats going to happen. At the end of the day, I hope I can say (for a majority of us) that it's not about the draft anymore.. it's about bringing in impact players to help us now. Garth made a big step forward by acquiring Visnovsky this weekend. If he can make another trade for a Top 4 guy/top 6 guy and then sign what he can't acquire through a trade during Free Agency, maybe it will signal to us that this organization gets it.

As it relates to Reinhart, I think he's going to be an absolute animal at the NHL level and a 1/2 guy for years. I'm thinking Shea Weber meets Drew Doughty. This guy LOVES to handle the puck. And I'll make a bet that when Streit leaves Long Island, Reinhart takes over.

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06-25-2012, 09:40 AM
  #423
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I feel that even to NHL GM's that size holds a lot of value. Especially on the blueline. I saw how excited everyone got when we saw 6'4" and 6'5" came out about the players we drafted. That had to come from somewhere.

Down the road expect Garth to have a few extra tradables when he needs to squeak out a deal much like the Staal trade this weekened. All these guys need to do is simply show improvement and they will keep GM's interested based on size alone. Look how far guys like Wishart (drafted 16th) and Jurcina (drafted 241st) have come and the only real positives about their game currently is their size.

I think it masks a lot of issues because people are drawn to that. Not saying these guys will not turn out or will be bad players, but when using these later picks, Garth may be trying to get as much value out of them as he can. Size isn't a bad place to start.

The only exception is Jesse Graham. But I think his upside was too high when they saw him still on the board. I would think Garth realizes max potential of all these players and envisions them in an Isles sweater but he has the value to trade them if needed.

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06-25-2012, 09:48 AM
  #424
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I feel that even to NHL GM's that size holds a lot of value. Especially on the blueline. I saw how excited everyone got when we saw 6'4" and 6'5" came out about the players we drafted. That had to come from somewhere.
Probably because most our top defenseman prospects are 6 feet or less

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06-25-2012, 09:49 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by WeStarve4Success View Post
It's a draft. We can debate the merits of these players for years, who knows whats going to happen. At the end of the day, I hope I can say (for a majority of us) that it's not about the draft anymore.. it's about bringing in impact players to help us now. Garth made a big step forward by acquiring Visnovsky this weekend. If he can make another trade for a Top 4 guy/top 6 guy and then sign what he can't acquire through a trade during Free Agency, maybe it will signal to us that this organization gets it.

As it relates to Reinhart, I think he's going to be an absolute animal at the NHL level and a 1/2 guy for years. I'm thinking Shea Weber meets Drew Doughty. This guy LOVES to handle the puck. And I'll make a bet that when Streit leaves Long Island, Reinhart takes over.
Bold part, from your mouth to God's ears. If he approaches anywhere near a combo of Weber and Doughty, I'd be thrilled. I'm thinking he's more like a Marc Staal type of player (pre concussion). He actually outscored Staal in his draft year, so he may actually have more offensive capabilities, BUT, if he can match Staal's shutdown ability, and add some offense, then the pick is a home run. I loved some of the highlights I've seen of Reinhart, just steering guys into the boards, he seems to always knock them on their *****. And he has a very good shot. Loved his interview, he seems quietly intense. Wants to make the team, but realizes he has things to work on, so he would take a demotion to the Oil Kings as a motivation tool.

As far as Pelech goes, he played on a terrible team, who's top scorer had 53 points. He actually led all D-men in scoring on Erie, despite only scoring 20 points (in only 44 games). He reminds me of Hamonic-lite, not as good a skater, but a leader, and shut down D-man who might sneakily have some offensive abilities as well (20 points by a 17 year old D-man on a terrible offensive team isn't bad.). I loved this pick, in fact I was hoping the Isles would pick him when their pick came due (I'm a draft junkie, watched all 7 rounds).

Pokka is growing on me, though not picking Finn or Thrower over him may become a huge mistake by Snow. It'll be interesting to watch this throughout the years.

I'm hoping all 3 dmen make the WJHC, Pokka should make it for Finland and Reinhart/Pelech for Canada, though Pelech will probably be a longshot, with so many Canadian d-men out there, hell, Reinhart might not even make it, though I hope he does.

The rest of the d-men drafted probably won't even get a sniff of the WJHC this year.

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