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Why Ray Shero Made a Great Decision and Scott Howson is Making A Horrible Mistake.

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Old
06-23-2012, 11:40 PM
  #76
aemoreira1981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 650X2 View Post
Staal has one year left. Nash is signed until 2018.

Howson doesn't have to trade him yet. Just because he "requested" (not demanded) a trade doesn't mean CBJ have to trade him he has got 7.5M reasons to play for the CBJ next season.

Can't compare the situations.
Problem: Scott Howson is likely trying to save his job; without a turnaround next season, he's likely finished in Columbus. In the trade of Jordan Staal, Shero got back essentially the same type of player in Brandon Sutter, but Sutter is under team control through the 2015-16 season. Combine that with the fact that Staal would have been a UFA at 24 and he would have gotten more money just because he is only 24.

I think that that the Staal trade is good for both teams; Staal will at worst be a second-liner behind brother Eric and, of course, the Hurricanes tend to foster an environment where they keep their key players even when everyone else thinks they're on the move (see Gleason, Tim and Ruutu, Tuomo). As for trading Zbynek Michaelek back to the Coyotes...I think that they're probably going after Ryan Suter to pair with Kris Letang.

Now, you can debate why Howson got Bobrovsky, who trended way down after the 2012 All-Star break with a save percentage of only .860 (worst in the NHL).

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06-24-2012, 01:39 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
To clarify, this was the rumoured Rangers offer:

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...-what-now.html


It was more than just some pure rumour from an Eklund-type BSer, it was stated as fact by a fairly reliable/connected Columbus journalist.

As for the offer, lots of pretty good pieces, but no true stud centerpiece, no Kreider, Stepan, etc. I doubt they'll get that MANY good pieces back when they do end up trading Nash (JT Miller went 15th overall in 2011, the 2012 1st would have been 28th overall, Tim Erixon went 23rd overall in 2009 and has been developing well, Christian Thomas went 40th overall in 2010 and has been developing well), but they could end up with a centerpiece that is more of a stud/sure thing than anyone in that NYR offer.
That would be the goal of such a trade. Erixon and Thomas basically don't add anything to our team, so really their sole value would have been to attempt to turn around and flip them to someone else (dicey and unlikely with prospects). The assets we'd actually have been able to use were Dubinsky, Miller, and the (very late) 1st... not much tangible there.

(Yeah, I get a tad annoyed whenever folks claim that that offer was good. The Rangers threw in too many assets... and they were assets Columbus didn't have a use for! Simply ridiculous on either side.)

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06-24-2012, 02:26 PM
  #78
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Like someone said, you can't compare the 2 trades at all.

One was a UFA in a year who wants money and more of a role, the other is signed long term.

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06-24-2012, 07:15 PM
  #79
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I would probably have accepted the Carolina package for Nash. I just don't see how the Rangers' offer stacks up against that. Howson does look like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar from the outside right now; I'll give you that. Nonetheless, I think he'll make the best of the situation and get a better offer than the Rangers' mentioned in this thread.

It might come down to saying, "Hey Rick, if you really want out, Ottawa gave us an offer we'd be comfortable accepting. They have a bright future and a decent location. It seems like a reasonable team for us to send you to. If you really want out it looks like this is your only option, short of playing well this year and showing potential suitors that you are worth your contract."

In short, there's a decent chance it gets ugly, but I think he'll get some pretty good pieces for Nash.

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06-24-2012, 08:12 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MarkovsKnee View Post
Sorry, but I thought that Rangers offer, if true, sucked. Staal was traded for a young core player. Sutter is the type of player teams don't want to trade, but Carolina did it anyway. Carter netted Columbus Johnson and a 1st. There's no way they should accept less than that for Nash. If Rangers want him then Kreider and a 2013 1st is an offer.

It seems like Nash for Ryan would be a natural trade. It gives both players a fresh start. Nash would play with 2 great players in Getzlaf and Perry, and Ryan is young and would be part of a nice rebuild in Columbus. I doubt Ducks want the cap hit though, and Ryan seems to want to go to Philly (who doesn't?).
This offer was more then fine seeing how he gave a list of 5 teams that he would waive his nc for...Howson lost his advantage so in no way would you offer top dollar when the noose is around the neck.

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06-24-2012, 08:15 PM
  #81
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Well we don't know if Howsen made a mistake until we see the return for Nash when he is traded
He threw Nash under the bus. He made a mistake.

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06-24-2012, 08:25 PM
  #82
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We'll see what happens, but at the time I wouldn't taken that Rangers deal. It's a smattering of prospects plus Dubinsky, who I can take or leave on a good day. There's got to be a legit, young, impact NHL player in that package somewhere. Someone you can picture making a real contribution when you hope to become a serious contender. That's not in that deal and there's nothing close to it.

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06-24-2012, 08:47 PM
  #83
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This whole discussion sounds eerily like the Dany Heatley Fiasco two summers ago. Ottawa fans swore up and down we were going to get real value for him and that all Murray had to do was wait. People even pointed to it being an Olympic year as a reason that Heatley wouldn't dog it.

In the end, the decision was made to move the distraction and the end result is a trade that, at the time, heavily favored the Sharks, who traded a decent winger with potential, a washed up vet cap dump in Cheechoo and a late first rounder. All that for a multiple 50-time goal scorer who was coming off a "bad year" of 39 goals.

Who knew "Dominant Dany" would become "Diminishing Dany" and Milan Michalek would turn out to be a great find?

Expect Columbus to end up getting the same type of deal. The longer this goes, the more of a distraction to the rest of the team this is.

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06-24-2012, 09:00 PM
  #84
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The New York offer would have been a horrible return to try and sell to the fans. Dubinski and some pretty good prospects. The Nash situation is certainly dragging on though, certainly has some similarities to the Heatley debacle in Ottawa a few years ago on the surface. Who knows what is going on behind closed doors though.

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06-24-2012, 11:09 PM
  #85
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Very different situations

Staal: No teams waiting on the potential of signing an equivalent or even close to as good of a center in UFA

Nash: Lots of teams waiting on the Parise decision which means they'd be hesitant to go all in with assets when they could just as good if not better of a winger without giving up any assets. Interested teams that loss out on Parise will revisit Nash

Howson still isn't a good GM but just is bad are his bosses who've tried to force the direction of the team on him. He was given a mandate by his superiors to turn the team into a contender before they were ready last summer which resulted in the dreadful Wiz contract and Carter gongshow. Just like Peddie deserves just as much if not more blame for the Leafs under JFJ. So do Howson's bosses.

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06-24-2012, 11:33 PM
  #86
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No matter what, Howson is not going to get equal value for Nash.

The best type of deal I've seen in the last decade where both teams got equal value for superstar players was Heatley for Hossa and de Vries. I don't think we'll ever see a deal similar to that in a long time.

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Old
06-24-2012, 11:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by sabresfan129103 View Post
The Rangers offered a substantial package for Nash. Howson should have taken it.
The Rangers didn't offer a single high end piece.

They offered up a bloated salary player, a decent young offensive d-man and a couple midrange prospects.

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06-25-2012, 12:07 AM
  #88
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I see the point, it's a good one.

However, Ray Shero was already dealing from a better position. In Jordan Staal, you're honestly not getting that much of a drop in talent and probably a more or less equal quality of player for a much lower cap hit.

But Howson is a complete idiot. I'm so happy Ryan has hit the market again - makes Howson look so stupid for holding out so much, because his guy is definitely number two now on the list of most desirable assets on the trade market. He definitely should've taken what the Rangers offered him.

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06-25-2012, 01:50 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
But Staal isn't a third line center and you know it. The Pens are the only team where he'd be a third line centre for his whole career due to Crosby/Malkin.
I don't think he'd play above Kopitar and Richards.

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06-25-2012, 01:53 AM
  #90
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I don't think he'd play above Kopitar and Richards.
Eh, I could see him playing above Richards. At the very least I think he'd get more of an offensive role on the Kings.

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06-25-2012, 03:08 AM
  #91
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Howson is just delaying until he get can get Nash to agree to go to Ottawa.

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Old
06-25-2012, 03:09 AM
  #92
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Well we don't know if Howsen made a mistake until we see the return for Nash when he is traded
My thoughts exactly

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06-25-2012, 08:10 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Last night, we saw polar opposites, in terms of choosing the right time to trade a player.

Shero sees Staal turn down a 10 year deal, in part obviously because he doesn't want to spend his career as a third-liner. So Shero trades him right before the draft knowing he can reload his team for the future. He doesn't wait. A decision needs to be made and it was perfect timing.

Scott Howson allegedly gets offered a great deal for Rick Nash by the Rangers at the deadline, turns it down. He believes he can get more. The better offers fail to come at the draft, so now Howson believes after July 1st he'll strike gold. The problem is, Nash making a top 5 cap hit. Who's going to have the money/cap room to add him? Howson has made a horrific blunder and the gravy train for Rick Nash has left the station. The best offers for Nash have come already.
Based on what I just read in this thread as to what the deal was supposed to be -- calling this proposal "great" is massive exaggeration. I don't know what Columbus can practically get for him, but the NYR deal would leave me feeling very Joe Thornton like.

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06-25-2012, 08:17 AM
  #94
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I said this in the other thread, but I think it's more relevant here.

These are the facts as I see them:

Howsen made Nash available and that was leaked to the media. Then Howsen publicly stated it was Nash that asked for the trade (huge mistake).

At this point Nash has submitted a small list of teams and when a player does that he begins to move on mentally. He's been in limbo since the deadline, is clearly ready to go (by his own admission) and I for one would not blame if he goes full Heatley pretty quickly if this does not get resolved. The most idiotic thing Howsen could do at this point is NOT trade Nash before the season starts.

Now that list of teams is issue number 2. We are pretty sure the list includes SJ, NYR, Kings, Boston, and probably Vancouver or Toronto. Ottawa and Philly do not appear to be on his list from what we've heard. Of those 6 teams you can probably cross both Vancouver (can't afford him, has not shown any interest) and Toronto (got JVR instead, likely because Nash talks were going nowhere or they were not on his list). Cross Kings off because they won the cup and likely are not going to make the significant kind of offer that would upset their team at this point. Boston also does not seem to have ever really been in the bidding war, especially recently.

That leaves realistic options as SJ or NY, with Ottawa trying to convince him to add them to his list. Now, lets say either SJ or NY is able to sign Parise, or trade for Ryan, or simply make any kind of acquisition in place of Nash. If Nash is unwilling to add Ottawa to his list (unlikely imo) that is going to leave exactly one team bidding for Nash. Right now Howsen has at least two teams on that list bidding. Every day he waits raises the possibility significantly of that dropping to one. When that happens the bids are going to decrease.

If this was a 29 team bidding war, the 'wait till after FA and the bids will go up' would be logical. That is not the case. The case is that it is a 5 team bidding war with only 2 or 3 of those teams even interested. If Howsen is relying on Nash to change his list, then what he is doing is giving Nash all the power, not a good idea (see Heatley and Edmonton). The longer this goes on, the worse it looks for the players on the team with upcoming contracts, any free agents they hope to sign, etc.

Nash needs to be traded, immediately, or the situation is going to get far worse for Howsen. If he backs himself into a corner with a GM like Wilson he's going to be sorry. This is what Wilson does, he sits around quietly waiting and manipulating the situation until he is the only team bidding and then he tosses them a bone. We were the only team bidding on Thornton, on Heatley, and on Boyle. How did that turn out for those GM's?

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06-25-2012, 10:46 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
Shero is over-rated. The Penguins should have had a dynasty, why the **** do you draft Staal when you could have had Toews, who played plenty of LW? Right now they could be rolling out:

Toews/Crosby/Does it really matter??
Kunitz/Malkin/Neal

FTW those top 2 lines win the Cup every single season.


The dude can't draft for ****. He failed to acquire a half decent back up at last seasons TDL, but still the only fans that worship a GM more than the Pens faithful are the nauseating Leafs fans. OMG Burke this Burke that.

Sorry for the whiney rant.
Just a quick response to this: Shero was made the GM right before that draft, and he went with the person that the scouting department of the Penguins wanted. That was Staal. I suppose it's easy to look back and armchair that one, but there's more to think about there.

That's an interesting second line that you listed there. 2 of the 3 were trades of Shero, and pretty good ones at that. Are we just going to ignore that?

I agree that Shero's drafting has been suspect, but I think that you will see many good, drafted prospects make it to the NHL in the coming years. And those players will have a significant impact. Especially the Dmen of Despres, Morrow, and Harrington. Jury is still out on a lot of the other players. But assuredly, prospects have a much tougher time making a pretty stacked Penguin NHL roster.

Ray's teams have made the finals in 2 out of the last 5 years. I would think a lot of people would be pretty happy if their teams were able to accomplish this....

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06-25-2012, 11:45 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by 650X2 View Post
Staal has one year left. Nash is signed until 2018.

Howson doesn't have to trade him yet. Just because he "requested" (not demanded) a trade doesn't mean CBJ have to trade him he has got 7.5M reasons to play for the CBJ next season.

Can't compare the situations.
The difference? Just that Nash was polite and gracious about it rather than a ******. Your captain "asking" to be traded and demanding to be traded are the same thing in different terms. It's like saying you're going to rescind my posting privileges rather than just take them away/back; different words that mean the same thing.

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Nash's value wont go down. Honestly I dont care if he plays with the CBJ next year, they are going to be bad either way. I would rather to get what we want.

Wait as long as it takes.
It certainly won't go up. At this point, I have to believe his value does go down with every week he remains on the roster. Teams find other solutions, use their cap space in other ways and make other plans. No team that's interested and on Nash's list is going to all of a sudden wake up and go "gosh darn it! I guess I'll just cave in and offer the farm". His value won't go down? If you're lucky, I'll say maybe that's true, but in reality, the only place it can go is down.

As for wanting to get what you want...

Everyone would rather get what they want; few people do. It's where the word compromise comes from. Howson should see by now that he will have to be somewhat compromising in terms of what he'll accept as a return; he clearly isn't going to get the bounty he expects.

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07-03-2012, 05:24 PM
  #97
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As an NYR fan, I'm happy they didn't make that deal. Dubi, a 1st, two first round picks in Miller and Erixon and then Thomas for a guy who has an NTC and comes with an absurd cap hit? No, thanks. If Sather can't get a decent deal for Nash, he has to let it go. Howson is out of his mind IMO, I'd have taken Dubi and the 3 firsts and run.
Yeah, that seems like too much for someone with that contract.

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07-03-2012, 07:05 PM
  #98
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Just a quick response to this: Shero was made the GM right before that draft, and he went with the person that the scouting department of the Penguins wanted. That was Staal. I suppose it's easy to look back and armchair that one, but there's more to think about there.

That's an interesting second line that you listed there. 2 of the 3 were trades of Shero, and pretty good ones at that. Are we just going to ignore that?

I agree that Shero's drafting has been suspect, but I think that you will see many good, drafted prospects make it to the NHL in the coming years. And those players will have a significant impact. Especially the Dmen of Despres, Morrow, and Harrington. Jury is still out on a lot of the other players. But assuredly, prospects have a much tougher time making a pretty stacked Penguin NHL roster.

Ray's teams have made the finals in 2 out of the last 5 years. I would think a lot of people would be pretty happy if their teams were able to accomplish this....
well I'm not a Pens fan or a Shero fan so I guess you could say that I don't care what his teams have accomplished! I mean, obviously, why would I care? And you should know that I also don't really care when the praise is warrented, and this goes towards the Pens GM, the Leafs GM, the Flyers GM, or any GM or player or coach. My rant, which was admittedly whiney, was with reagards to giving people praise for doing nothing spectacular.

When Shero traded Whitney I gave him a ton of credit, and I thought the Goligoski trade was a great one to. But those players he acquired were scouted, should we just assume they made the final decission to? I get that he was "new"to the Penguins but he certainly wasn't new to NHL hockey when he made the decissions on his first draft. And there really were not any secrets about any of the top 5 players that year.

A great GM could have forged a dynasty with the Penguins. A good one can get a couple Finals appearances. But the Leafs fans are the worst, Burke is some kind of mastermind I keep hearing but when exactly is he going to actually do something brilliant?

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07-03-2012, 07:13 PM
  #99
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Well... the issue here, IMO, is Zach Parise.

As long as he's out in the ether, no team that's still "in" on him is going to move assets to acquire Rick Nash when they might land Parise for nothing but money. When the teams that are Nash's list lose out on Parise, it's probable there will be more negotations for Rick Nash than just San Jose and New York, which will raise his value by virtue of a bidding war.

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07-23-2012, 03:34 PM
  #100
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Given the trade today I have to say I'm right.

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