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The 2013 Draft Thread: Not Winnin' For #(??)...

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:49 AM
  #726
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
The MacKinnon hype train is driving this debate. Which player has clearly outperformed the other? Which player stepped up on the big stage and which didn't?
Nic Petan has more points than MacKinnon, whats your point?

Points in junior are not the be all end all. A elite 2 way center is more valuable than a dynamic winger.

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03-15-2013, 10:49 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
The MacKinnon hype train is driving this debate. Which player has clearly outperformed the other? Which player stepped up on the big stage and which didn't?
Hype? You think the praise he receives is unwarranted? He's almost a 2014 draft eligible. Can you imagine if he was born 15 days later and had to wait another year before being drafted? He's an excellent player. It's not hype.

Age matters. Drouin is smack dab in the middle of his draft year. MacKinnon is two weeks from being a 2014 draft eligible. That's wonderful that Drouin has put up better numbers, but imagine the numbers MacKinnon would put up next season as an 18.

Position matters. MacKinnon is a center, Drouin a wing. Take the center where it's close--and contrary to your sentiments, most agree it is pretty close.

As far as the WJC, it's a small sample size, and if you want to rely on it, fine. You probably were one of the people ripping Sean Couturier after his WJC performance, too, and didn't think he warranted a top-3 selection. Team Canada was set at center, pushing MacKinnon out to the wing where, according to JFB, he's far less comfortable. But, again, small sample size. Would you prefer Johnny Gaudreau to Galchenyuk because Gaudreau was far better at the WJC?

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03-15-2013, 10:54 AM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Do you watch the Q at all?
No, but I watched the SSS and WJC, so it's not like I haven't seen them play, albeit, a limited sample size. But a 30 point difference over 5 games is hard to just overlook, especially when he just looks better, which is the most important part.

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03-15-2013, 10:57 AM
  #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Hype? You think the praise he receives is unwarranted? He's almost a 2014 draft eligible. Can you imagine if he was born 15 days later and had to wait another year before being drafted? He's an excellent player. It's not hype.

Age matters. Drouin is smack dab in the middle of his draft year. MacKinnon is two weeks from being a 2014 draft eligible. That's wonderful that Drouin has put up better numbers, but imagine the numbers MacKinnon would put up next season as an 18.

Position matters. MacKinnon is a center, Drouin a wing. Take the center where it's close--and contrary to your sentiments, most agree it is pretty close.

As far as the WJC, it's a small sample size, and if you want to rely on it, fine. You probably were one of the people ripping Sean Couturier after his WJC performance, too, and didn't think he warranted a top-3 selection. Team Canada was set at center, pushing MacKinnon out to the wing where, according to JFB, he's far less comfortable. But, again, small sample size. Would you prefer Johnny Gaudreau to Galchenyuk because Gaudreau was far better at the WJC?
Pat Kane, wing
Kyle Turris, center

Position doesnt matter that much.

Galchenyuk was good at the WJCs.

And yes, my opinion of Couturier changed, and rightly so.

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03-15-2013, 10:58 AM
  #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
The MacKinnon hype train is driving this debate. Which player has clearly outperformed the other? Which player stepped up on the big stage and which didn't?

P.S. - I'm not trying to knock MacKinnon, but Drouin has been so good, you can't ignore it.
By outperformed do you mean "scored more points?" (Note: MacKinnon was injured a couple weeks.)

And please...WJC is a useless measuring tool here. MacKinnon got 4th line minutes because of Canada's center depth, while Drouin was being gifted top 6 minutes because they don't have that kind of depth on wing. That he even made their U-20 team as a 17yo is ridiculous.

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03-15-2013, 11:04 AM
  #731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
By outperformed do you mean "scored more points?" (Note: MacKinnon was injured a couple weeks.)

And please...WJC is a useless measuring tool here. MacKinnon got 4th line minutes because of Canada's center depth, while Drouin was being gifted top 6 minutes because they don't have that kind of depth on wing. That he even made their U-20 team as a 17yo is ridiculous.
But, MacKinnon wasnt given those minutes on the wing. Why? Drouin earned them instead. You guys can keep running out your excuses, I'm going with Drouin. As for your last sentence, they both made it as 17 yo's, so not a good argument. Drouin did it without the hype, which is more impressive, IMO.

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03-15-2013, 11:07 AM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
But, MacKinnon wasnt given those minutes on the wing. Why? Drouin earned them instead. You guys can keep running out your excuses, I'm going with Drouin.
Don't act like MacKinnon is a bad choice or overhyped.

MacKinnon has the more rounded game at a coveted position.
Drouin has the better offensive upside as a winger.

Depends what you want. Lots of people around here want a center that is elite offensively and good 2-way.

You're looking purely at who will produce more, and that's ok.

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03-15-2013, 11:09 AM
  #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
No, but I watched the SSS and WJC, so it's not like I haven't seen them play, albeit, a limited sample size. But a 30 point difference over 5 games is hard to just overlook.
I get it. It's fits with what you value.

Drouin may end up being the better scorer/point producer in the NHL (I wouldn't bet on it, but it's a legitimate position to take)

But, Mackinnon is going to be the guy that a franchise is built around. The complete player. The guy whose skills translate properly to the NHL (puck dominant, strong, plays a complete game)

I get it though... if given the choice, you would take Pat Kane over Jon Toews... and I'd do the opposite.

Passing on a kid whose game has mirrored Crosby's since he was 15, to take the guy who plays with him and whose game pretty much came out of no where.... would be astonishingly stupid

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03-15-2013, 11:10 AM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcv View Post
Don't act like MacKinnon is a bad choice or overhyped.

MacKinnon has the more rounded game at a coveted position.
Drouin has the better offensive upside as a winger.

Depends what you want. Lots of people around here want a center that is elite offensively and good 2-way.

You're looking purely at who will produce more, and that's ok.
Again, not knocking MacKinnon. I would LOVE him on the Sabres. But I'd prefer Drouin, that's all.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:14 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
But, MacKinnon wasnt given those minutes on the wing. Why? Drouin earned them instead. You guys can keep running out your excuses, I'm going with Drouin. As for your last sentence, they both made it as 17 yo's, so not a good argument. Drouin did it without the hype, which is more impressive, IMO.
Because he is a pure center

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03-15-2013, 11:19 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
But, MacKinnon wasnt given those minutes on the wing. Why? Drouin earned them instead. You guys can keep running out your excuses, I'm going with Drouin. As for your last sentence, they both made it as 17 yo's, so not a good argument. Drouin did it without the hype, which is more impressive, IMO.
Drouin got those minutes because of a numbers game.
It's not a knock on his ability, but that's the reality of things.

The coaching staff felt MacKinnon was "immature" on the wing in the SSS (Game 1 when he had some defensive lapses), so he ended up on the fourth line.
This should not have any effect on his NHL upside though, even at the wing position.
He just has a wild horse type mentality right now that can be tamed if necessary.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:25 AM
  #737
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wait... there is no need to argue.

Florida takes Seth Jones #1
Buffalo takes Nate Mackinnon #2

Buffalo trades Ryan Miller to Tampa Bay

Buffalo takes Jonathan Drouin #3

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03-15-2013, 11:26 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Pat Kane, wing
Kyle Turris, center

Position doesnt matter that much.

Galchenyuk was good at the WJCs.

And yes, my opinion of Couturier changed, and rightly so.
I don't recall people thinking Turris and Kane were close. Kane was the runaway #1 his year.

I can't help thinking you have ulterior motives here. I think you recognize that MacKinnon's arrival for all intents and purposes ends the Ennis-at-center experiment, and pushes Ennis into a less valuable role on the wing.

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03-15-2013, 11:27 AM
  #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post

Passing on a kid whose game has mirrored Crosby's since he was 15, to take the guy who plays with him and whose game pretty much came out of no where.... would be astonishingly stupid
... and that's where your post went down hill.

Come on Jame, be better than that.

It's a preference / needs thing, but a measure of intelligence here.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:28 AM
  #740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
Drouin got those minutes because of a numbers game.
It's not a knock on his ability, but that's the reality of things.

The coaching staff felt MacKinnon was "immature" on the wing in the SSS (Game 1 when he had some defensive lapses), so he ended up on the fourth line.
This should not have any effect on his NHL upside though, even at the wing position.
He just has a wild horse type mentality right now that can be tamed if necessary.
That's fair, but we shouldn't diminish what Drouin did with his chance. He was easily one of Canada's best players, which for a 17 yo, is extremely impressive.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:31 AM
  #741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I don't recall people thinking Turris and Kane were close. Kane was the runaway #1 his year.

I can't help thinking you have ulterior motives here. I think you recognize that MacKinnon's arrival for all intents and purposes ends the Ennis-at-center experiment, and pushes Ennis into a less valuable role on the wing.
Cool, keep thinking that. Maybe we can finally get rid of Stafford then.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:35 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Cool, keep thinking that. Maybe we can finally get rid of Stafford then.
I doubt our draft has much impact on Stafford one way or another. This is likely his last contract with Buffalo, regardless. I'd be fairly surprised if this year's draft is what spells the end of his tenure with the Sabres.

As Jame alluded to, you value different things than many of us. We prefer the Ryan O'Reillys of the world, you prefer the Tyler Ennises.


Last edited by vcv: 03-15-2013 at 11:43 AM.
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Old
03-15-2013, 11:39 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Passing on a kid whose game has mirrored Crosby's since he was 15, to take the guy who plays with him and whose game pretty much came out of no where.... would be astonishingly stupid
Well, Nathan is not Sidney.
He does have the grinder type mentality that Sid does to go along with world class skill, but not the otherworldly IQ.
Not many in the history of the game can think the game as well as Crosby does though.

Also, Drouin didn't come out of nowhere.
I was pimping him in last year's draft thread when talking about Hudon and became enamored with him in early 2011 after watching him at the Canada Winter Games and then again at the Telus Cup. /drouinhipster

I think he's been underrated by some though; I remember posting about him in some thread on the prospects board when he finally signed with Halifax saying the Moose would now be deadly offensively and even Moose fans doubted what he'd bring.
Also, no mainstream services or scouts seemed to be on board with him at the beginning of the year, which was hilarious to me.
Just shows their lack of Q presence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
That's fair, but we shouldn't diminish what Drouin did with his chance. He was easily one of Canada's best players, which for a 17 yo, is extremely impressive.
I am not diminishing what he did at all and I am a big fan of him and always have been.

However, the chips fell perfectly for him and not Nate.
Jo would not have even made the team had it not been for Charles Hudon being injured (Drouin was not added to the roster until the first day of the tournament and would have been sent home otherwise).
The coaching staff just felt he was a better fit there, given his skillset and experience at wing (despite playing C growing up).

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03-15-2013, 11:51 AM
  #744
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In the March 15th release of the ISS Top 30, the top 5 players have retained their positions from February. Defenseman Seth Jones remains the top ranked prospect, with winger Valery Nichushkin the top ranked forward at the #2 spot, and Zachary Fucale retaining his #1 goaltender ranking for the entire season.
http://www.isshockey.com/iss-iss-top...sed-for-march/

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03-15-2013, 11:54 AM
  #745
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
wait... there is no need to argue.

Florida takes Seth Jones #1
Buffalo takes Nate Mackinnon #2

Buffalo trades Ryan Miller to Tampa Bay

Buffalo takes Jonathan Drouin #3
Ok Schopp.


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Old
03-15-2013, 12:20 PM
  #746
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I'm pretty confident that Florida would take Nate #1 overall, for the same reasons we would.

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03-15-2013, 01:15 PM
  #747
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I'd rank them like this:

1) Jones
2) Mac
3) JD

And I love Drouin.

If the Sabres could by some miracle end up with 2 of those 3.....


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Old
03-15-2013, 01:49 PM
  #748
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I'm pretty confident that Florida would take Nate #1 overall, for the same reasons we would.
I would disagree with you, I think they would be all over Jones.

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03-15-2013, 02:16 PM
  #749
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Comparing mackinnon to crosby is crazy talk, not on the same level

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03-15-2013, 02:23 PM
  #750
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But I think a good argument would be:
C seguin vs W hall
They are still pretty even but I would rather build my team around the center seguin.

I have only seen mac and drouin at WJCs and that, plus the stats, are why I prefer drouin but if they really are even it's usually better to go center

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