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Old
09-10-2012, 06:59 PM
  #526
OneSharpMarble
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Many of Howson's failings are due to the fact he tried to build the team around Rick Nash. It's a failed strategy, mostly because Nash is overrated and he's not a player you can build around. At this point, we could see Columbus improve substantially.
I would say it's more like his horrendous drafting and even worse development. Surrounding Nash with garbage is hardly Nashs fault.

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09-11-2012, 10:10 AM
  #527
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I would say it's more like his horrendous drafting and even worse development. Surrounding Nash with garbage is hardly Nashs fault.
Nop, the problem was that he surrounded a complementary piece(albeit an elite one) and tried to make it the franchise core. No good.

But let's not go OT here.

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09-11-2012, 10:46 AM
  #528
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Nop, the problem was that he surrounded a complementary piece(albeit an elite one) and tried to make it the franchise core. No good.

But let's not go OT here.
Because he had such great options right? If anyone else had shown up he probably would have jumped at it. Maybe he should have made Filatov, Brassard, Brule, Zherdev or Picard the centrepiece! All such excellent choices to really lead that team.

In 2002 Columbus had 13 picks, 1 of them managed to stick, I am sure it was that one players fault for everything that happened since.

Edit: Let me guess you are the kinda guy who would blame Koivu for all our problems during his career in Montreal?


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09-11-2012, 11:02 AM
  #529
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Because he had such great options right? If anyone else had shown up he probably would have jumped at it. Maybe he should have made Filatov, Brassard, Brule, Zherdev or Picard the centrepiece! All such excellent choices to really lead that team.

In 2002 Columbus had 13 picks, 1 of them managed to stick, I am sure it was that one players fault for everything that happened since.

Edit: Let me guess you are the kinda guy who would blame Koivu for all our problems during his career in Montreal?
Wow.. Why so ******** ?

Koivu is maybe my all-time favorite hab...YUSOMADTHO?


What he would've need to do is go in complete rebuild, sell Nash at the highest bidder and pick good. Instead he made bonehead move with Carter and made a poor decisions with Nash. Selling ansh 3 years ago would've killed the (already dead) BJ for on or two season. Then putting them up to a good team, then making the tickets sales go up. Instead he took a poor team and tried to make it a good team with poor pieces. Now what ? They're stuck with Anisimov as their best contributor.

No need to be a genious to understand this.

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09-11-2012, 11:16 AM
  #530
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Wow.. Why so ******** ?

Koivu is maybe my all-time favorite hab...YUSOMADTHO?


What he would've need to do is go in complete rebuild, sell Nash at the highest bidder and pick good. Instead he made bonehead move with Carter and made a poor decisions with Nash. Selling ansh 3 years ago would've killed the (already dead) BJ for on or two season. Then putting them up to a good team, then making the tickets sales go up. Instead he took a poor team and tried to make it a good team with poor pieces. Now what ? They're stuck with Anisimov as their best contributor.

No need to be a genious to understand this.
********? Are you 13yrs old? Also that "YUMADBRO?" stuff hasn't been funny for a long time, just kinda sad.

Rebuild and pick good you say! Why didn't they think of this? I guess after you pick 1st overall best thing to do is trade said player for more picks, it is like winning the lottery and using that money to buy more lottery tickets! Can't lose.

3 years ago they were on quite the awesome pick streak with top 10 can't miss prospects like Zherdev, Brule, Brassard, Picard, Voracek and Filatov. Perfect time to get more picks in exchange for the only 1st rounder that is actually playing well. At what point was this team NOT rebuilding exactly?

FYI it is spelt "Genius".

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09-11-2012, 11:21 AM
  #531
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I would say it's more like his horrendous drafting and even worse development. Surrounding Nash with garbage is hardly Nashs fault.
A good example would be the Voracek+Couturier for Carter trade. They were focused on building around Rick Nash, by getting Jeff Carter, a good center, for him, something he had been waiting for. If they had realized Nash was merely a complementary player rather than a player you build around, they would not have made the Carter trade, which will eventually be known as the Couturier trade.

Now they can finally move on. The remaining pieces from the Nash+Carter debacles are Jack Johnson, Brandon Dubinski, Tim Erixon, and Artem Anisimov. They just drafted Ryan Murray, a player with very good odds of turning into a first pairing dman. Further, I'll point out that if there is a lockout and the 2013 draft follows the 2005 rules, the New York Rangers and Los Angeles draft picks could actually be quite valuable. Given that it's a deep draft year, even the 29th and 30th overall picks could be valuable.

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09-11-2012, 11:29 AM
  #532
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A good example would be the Voracek+Couturier for Carter trade. They were focused on building around Rick Nash, by getting Jeff Carter, a good center, for him, something he had been waiting for. If they had realized Nash was merely a complementary player rather than a player you build around, they would not have made the Carter trade, which will eventually be known as the Couturier trade.

Now they can finally move on. The remaining pieces from the Nash+Carter debacles are Jack Johnson, Brandon Dubinski, Tim Erixon, and Artem Anisimov. They just drafted Ryan Murray, a player with very good odds of turning into a first pairing dman. Further, I'll point out that if there is a lockout and the 2013 draft follows the 2005 rules, the New York Rangers and Los Angeles draft picks could actually be quite valuable. Given that it's a deep draft year, even the 29th and 30th overall picks could be valuable.
The year Voracek was traded he had 14 goals in 80 games, that isn't even A.Kostitsyn level. In his 4 full season he hasn't broken 20 goals so I have a feeling he has 3rd line written all over him.

You think Columbus would have picked Couturier with that pick? Do I need to trot out the rest of their top 10 selections?

Trading Nash now was probably a decent move but to say he is the reason that a team couldn't draft, trade or develop players for **** in the last 12 years is just dumb.

Nash was what everyone thought he was, an elite 1st line guy. He couldn't carry a team but there is only one or two players in the entire league that could, they are called generational talents for a reason.

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09-11-2012, 11:55 AM
  #533
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The year Voracek was traded he had 14 goals in 80 games, that isn't even A.Kostitsyn level. In his 4 full season he hasn't broken 20 goals so I have a feeling he has 3rd line written all over him.

You think Columbus would have picked Couturier with that pick? Do I need to trot out the rest of their top 10 selections?

Trading Nash now was probably a decent move but to say he is the reason that a team couldn't draft, trade or develop players for **** in the last 12 years is just dumb.

Nash was what everyone thought he was, an elite 1st line guy. He couldn't carry a team but there is only one or two players in the entire league that could, they are called generational talents for a reason.
Voracek had 18 goals and 49 points last year, I call that 2nd line. It is Andrei Kostitsyn territory, another 2nd liner.

Your last paragraph distinguishes Nash from the one or two players in the entire league who are generational talents. With respect, there are dozens of players who are better than Rick Nash, who would net more than Nash on the trade market. Here: Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Jordan Staal, Shea Weber, Alex Pietrangelo, Zdeno Chara, Eric Staal, Marian Hossa, Jonathan Toews, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Tyler Seguin, Phil Kessel, Nicklas Backstrom, Alex Ovechkin, Pavel Datsyuk, Claude Giroux, Steven Stamkos, Henrik Sedin, John Tavares, Anze Kopitar, Drew Doughty, etc etc etc.

That is 21 players that anybody of sound mind would pick over Rick Nash in a 1for1 swap. I didn't even include any goalies, and only 4 dmen. The total list of players is probably around 40.

I have a name for this phenomenon: Dutch disease, named after the economic phenomenon of the same name. Dutch disease is when a team has a player good enough to guarantee they will draft out of the top-5, but not good enough to be able to attract UFAs and compete for the playoffs.

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09-11-2012, 12:17 PM
  #534
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Voracek had 18 goals and 49 points last year, I call that 2nd line. It is Andrei Kostitsyn territory, another 2nd liner.

Your last paragraph distinguishes Nash from the one or two players in the entire league who are generational talents. With respect, there are dozens of players who are better than Rick Nash, who would net more than Nash on the trade market. Here: Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Jordan Staal, Shea Weber, Alex Pietrangelo, Zdeno Chara, Eric Staal, Marian Hossa, Jonathan Toews, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Tyler Seguin, Phil Kessel, Nicklas Backstrom, Alex Ovechkin, Pavel Datsyuk, Claude Giroux, Steven Stamkos, Henrik Sedin, John Tavares, Anze Kopitar, Drew Doughty, etc etc etc.

That is 21 players that anybody of sound mind would pick over Rick Nash in a 1for1 swap. I didn't even include any goalies, and only 4 dmen. The total list of players is probably around 40.

I have a name for this phenomenon: Dutch disease, named after the economic phenomenon of the same name. Dutch disease is when a team has a player good enough to guarantee they will draft out of the top-5, but not good enough to be able to attract UFAs and compete for the playoffs.
On a offense first, second and third team he managed to hit the lofty goal of 18. Colour me impressed.

Thank you for proving my point. All of those players you listed are good enough to build a team around if you aren't toally worthless at trades, drafting and development.

I don't think you understand the argument here. I am saying Nash did what he was supposed to do and through no fault of his own the team failed. Managment is the obvious culprit. Nash was and still is the best player in his draft, he will not be a sydney crosby and nor should he. If the owner cannot find more than one piece you will never have a good hockey team.

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09-11-2012, 12:19 PM
  #535
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On a offense first, second and third team he managed to hit the lofty goal of 18. Colour me impressed.

Thank you for proving my point. All of those players you listed are good enough to build a team around if you aren't toally worthless at trades, drafting and development.

I don't think you understand the argument here. I am saying Nash did what he was supposed to do and through no fault of his own the team failed. Managment is the obvious culprit. Nash was and still is the best player in his draft, he will not be a sydney crosby and nor should he. If the owner cannot find more than one piece you will never have a good hockey team.
I agree that the trades and drafting were bad. However, I also think building around Nash was a problem, and that we could see the team become a bubble team by the 2013-2014 season.

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09-11-2012, 12:22 PM
  #536
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********? Are you 13yrs old? Also that "YUMADBRO?" stuff hasn't been funny for a long time, just kinda sad.

Rebuild and pick good you say! Why didn't they think of this? I guess after you pick 1st overall best thing to do is trade said player for more picks, it is like winning the lottery and using that money to buy more lottery tickets! Can't lose.

3 years ago they were on quite the awesome pick streak with top 10 can't miss prospects like Zherdev, Brule, Brassard, Picard, Voracek and Filatov. Perfect time to get more picks in exchange for the only 1st rounder that is actually playing well. At what point was this team NOT rebuilding exactly?

FYI it is spelt "Genius".
Howson is the gm of the Jackets since 07. He has drafted Murray, Johansen, Moore, Filatov and Voracek.

It's not that bad of a track record, only 1 of them busted, Filatov was a good gamble, didnt turn out, everything can happen. Voracek is a good player and Moore/Johansen/Murray are blue-chip prospect. Add to this the 2-3 other players he would have been able to fetch with Nash, you've got yourself a good rebuild.

Oh and I tought it was funny, also to the bolded you're the one calling me a 13 years old kid ?

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09-11-2012, 12:41 PM
  #537
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I agree that the trades and drafting were bad. However, I also think building around Nash was a problem, and that we could see the team become a bubble team by the 2013-2014 season.
Starting from scratch with Mason as starting goalie in a division with Detroit, Nashville, St Louis and Chicago? I wouldn't bet on it.

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Howson is the gm of the Jackets since 07. He has drafted Murray, Johansen, Moore, Filatov and Voracek.

It's not that bad of a track record, only 1 of them busted, Filatov was a good gamble, didnt turn out, everything can happen. Voracek is a good player and Moore/Johansen/Murray are blue-chip prospect. Add to this the 2-3 other players he would have been able to fetch with Nash, you've got yourself a good rebuild.

Oh and I tought it was funny, also to the bolded you're the one calling me a 13 years old kid ?
I don't know what your first line has to do with anything we talked about but ok...

Voracek looks like a 3rd liner, Filatov is a total bust, Murray hasn't played one game and Johansen/Moore havn't shown that much to say either way. So ya you have a couple prospects that havn't helped Nash or the team at all at this point. Tell me again how Nash hasn't been surrounded with junk?

I know you thought it was funny and that is the saddest part. I asked if you were 13, I didn't call you anything

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09-11-2012, 12:51 PM
  #538
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Starting from scratch with Mason as starting goalie in a division with Detroit, Nashville, St Louis and Chicago? I wouldn't bet on it.



I don't know what your first line has to do with anything we talked about but ok...

Voracek looks like a 3rd liner, Filatov is a total bust, Murray hasn't played one game and Johansen/Moore havn't shown that much to say either way. So ya you have a couple prospects that havn't helped Nash or the team at all at this point. Tell me again how Nash hasn't been surrounded with junk?

I know you thought it was funny and that is the saddest part. I asked if you were 13, I didn't call you anything
You pointed out that the drafting was incredibly bad, Howson's drafting wasnt that bad..
Voracek is a good contributor with his 2-way play. Point don't tell all the story. Johansen/Moore have shown good promise and are highly touted. Murray could've gone 1st. See how I can flip it easily with the same attitude you have ?

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09-11-2012, 12:57 PM
  #539
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marble,

I agree with you that they are in a tough division for now. However, only St-Louis looks to be strong medium term to long term.

Detroit, Chicago, and Nashville have grey clouds on their horizon. They could all become bubble teams.

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09-11-2012, 01:03 PM
  #540
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You pointed out that the drafting was incredibly bad, Howson's drafting wasnt that bad..
Voracek is a good contributor with his 2-way play. Point don't tell all the story. Johansen/Moore have shown good promise and are highly touted. Murray could've gone 1st. See how I can flip it easily with the same attitude you have ?
I said the TEAMS drafting was bad. And yes in the years Nash played it was awful, he was surrounded with plugs. All of the prospects you listed are either busts or unproven. A 7th overall turning into a 3rd liner is a bust!

So murray is the new kid on the block? That doesn't even factor into the situation because we are talking about how nash was the only one worth his jock on the team!

There was nothing wrong with Nash being your franchise player as long as there is more than just him.

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marble,

I agree with you that they are in a tough division for now. However, only St-Louis looks to be strong medium term to long term.

Detroit, Chicago, and Nashville have grey clouds on their horizon. They could all become bubble teams.
Detroit, Chicago and St.Louis have too much going for them to be on a bubble. Chicago has raw talent, Detroit has a managment that almost every team covets and St.Louis is strong at every position. I would take Pekka Rinne alone over the entire BJs lineup. Nashville is a question mark but atleast they don't have Brassard on their top line.

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09-11-2012, 01:37 PM
  #541
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Hopefully we can find Gally a good LW in this draft. So far I'm liking Monahan as a top 3-5 pick, Shinkaruk at 5-10 and Rychel at 10-14 (unfortunately I'm not expecting playoffs).

Although, a clear BPA would obviously change that.
Archambault a former QMJHL 1st overall choice is a LW,Tim Bozon LW and Charles Hudon LW,each player very talented and all under 20 yrs. old.They may not have been 1st round choices but then neither was Andrei Markov and many,many other players the Habs have in the HOF.Let's give them a chance under the new regime,TT has proven his skill at unearthing talent is 2nd to none in this age of hockey.

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09-11-2012, 04:31 PM
  #542
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Archambault a former QMJHL 1st overall choice is a LW,Tim Bozon LW and Charles Hudon LW,each player very talented and all under 20 yrs. old.They may not have been 1st round choices but then neither was Andrei Markov and many,many other players the Habs have in the HOF.Let's give them a chance under the new regime,TT has proven his skill at unearthing talent is 2nd to none in this age of hockey.
Archambault had everything to be a first rounder If, somehow he could turn it around...

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09-11-2012, 04:57 PM
  #543
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Archambault a former QMJHL 1st overall choice is a LW,Tim Bozon LW and Charles Hudon LW,each player very talented and all under 20 yrs. old.They may not have been 1st round choices but then neither was Andrei Markov and many,many other players the Habs have in the HOF.Let's give them a chance under the new regime,TT has proven his skill at unearthing talent is 2nd to none in this age of hockey.
You have got to be kidding me. I'm a big Hudon fan but I bet he won't crack the top 6 if he makes it. Bozon... maybe. He has high bust potential imo. And Archy... I will eat my ****ing shoes on video if he ever plays for the CH.

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09-11-2012, 05:06 PM
  #544
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You have got to be kidding me. I'm a big Hudon fan but I bet he won't crack the top 6 if he makes it. Bozon... maybe. He has high bust potential imo. And Archy... I will eat my ****ing shoes on video if he ever plays for the CH.
Well my friend you have thrown down the gauntlet it is only there for these immensely talented prodigies to pick up.They certainly will be afforded the best opportunities to succeed under Marc Bergevin's regime moreso than any in the last four decades IMHO.If this season is played Archambault could be playing for the Habs in pre-season games,careful what you wish for,it may come to fruition far quicker than expected.

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09-11-2012, 05:24 PM
  #545
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Uh not a chance. He's with Drummondville. Also this is the draft thread.. Let's talk about that.

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09-11-2012, 11:32 PM
  #546
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On a offense first, second and third team he managed to hit the lofty goal of 18. Colour me impressed.

Thank you for proving my point. All of those players you listed are good enough to build a team around if you aren't toally worthless at trades, drafting and development.

I don't think you understand the argument here. I am saying Nash did what he was supposed to do and through no fault of his own the team failed. Managment is the obvious culprit. Nash was and still is the best player in his draft, he will not be a sydney crosby and nor should he. If the owner cannot find more than one piece you will never have a good hockey team.
... and he had 31 assists, for 49 pts. Can you read ? Unless you don't know what hockey is about and think assists doesn't count

I agree about Nash though...

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09-13-2012, 11:19 PM
  #547
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Given the likelihood of a lockout of this season and the Habs draft position left to chance,my choices for the 1st round pick are in order of preference LW's only;from the WHL #1 Hunter Shinkaruk-5'10"-175 lbs.-Medicine Hat Tigers,QMJHL #2 Johnathan Drouin 5'11"-176 lbs.-Halifax Mooseheads,OHL #3 Max Domi-5'10"-194 lbs.-London Knights,QMJHL #4 William Carrier-6'01"-198 lbs.-Cape Breton Screaming Eagles.All of these players shoot left-handed and Domi is the only player that plays center but will probably be a LW in the NHL.Any of these players would be well suited as a LW on Alex Galchenyuk's line with Sebastian Collberg at RW.The odds are in the Habs favor that at least one of these players will be available when they choose.I know that teams usually draft the BPA in the 1st round but with a draft year this deep,I think the Habs should concentrate their efforts on LW's.The thought of the Habs getting Shinkaruk to play on a line with Galchenyuk and Collberg,has me dreaming about the Lafleur line with Shutt and Lemaire.One cannot compare the individual players by position and the era's hockey is quite different,but the speed,talent and desire can be measured.Chemistry between players would be the biggest concern and I feel these players could dazzle any opponents.I'll be watching the WJC's ever so closely this season as most of the player's I picked should be playing as well as Galchenyuk and Collberg.

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09-14-2012, 08:32 AM
  #548
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Given the likelihood of a lockout of this season and the Habs draft position left to chance,my choices for the 1st round pick are in order of preference LW's only;from the WHL #1 Hunter Shinkaruk-5'10"-175 lbs.-Medicine Hat Tigers,QMJHL #2 Johnathan Drouin 5'11"-176 lbs.-Halifax Mooseheads,OHL #3 Max Domi-5'10"-194 lbs.-London Knights,QMJHL #4 William Carrier-6'01"-198 lbs.-Cape Breton Screaming Eagles.All of these players shoot left-handed and Domi is the only player that plays center but will probably be a LW in the NHL.Any of these players would be well suited as a LW on Alex Galchenyuk's line with Sebastian Collberg at RW.The odds are in the Habs favor that at least one of these players will be available when they choose.I know that teams usually draft the BPA in the 1st round but with a draft year this deep,I think the Habs should concentrate their efforts on LW's.The thought of the Habs getting Shinkaruk to play on a line with Galchenyuk and Collberg,has me dreaming about the Lafleur line with Shutt and Lemaire.One cannot compare the individual players by position and the era's hockey is quite different,but the speed,talent and desire can be measured.Chemistry between players would be the biggest concern and I feel these players could dazzle any opponents.I'll be watching the WJC's ever so closely this season as most of the player's I picked should be playing as well as Galchenyuk and Collberg.
Size. This line would have none.

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09-14-2012, 09:12 AM
  #549
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Size. This line would have none.
Tinordi & Thrower on defence could solve that problem,while each of the players on the line will probably reach the 200 lbs level.Galchenyuk is listed for Sarnia at 6'02"-206 lbs already this season.

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09-16-2012, 08:22 PM
  #550
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How does Monahan compare to Galchenyuk?

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