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JVR traded to Toronto for Luke Schenn

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06-27-2012, 10:08 PM
  #701
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Somehow certain people have suddenly become much more patient with JVR now that he's gone
You are absolutely right. The grass is always greener I guess. If both players reach their top end potential Luke Schenn will turn into an elite defensive defenseman, will be beloved in Philly and will rival only Giroux as the next long-term captain of the Philadelphia Flyers.

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06-27-2012, 10:16 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
So basically you're allowed to be impatient with Schenn because......?

Both Schenn and JVR were sold low. That makes it even.

You cant be patient with one, but not the other.
Because schenn has shown consistent regression for two years, with no clear excuse. JVR has shown consistent improvement before suffering four pretty significant injuries in a single season. If you cant see the difference between the two, Idk what to ****ing tell you guy.

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06-27-2012, 10:22 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Because schenn has shown consistent regression for two years, with no clear excuse. JVR has shown consistent improvement before suffering four pretty significant injuries in a single season. If you cant see the difference between the two, Idk what to ****ing tell you guy.


Once again, you're completely wrong. Schenn has not shown constant regression for two years.

2010-11 was Schenn's based season to date.

You're making things up, "guy".

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06-27-2012, 10:23 PM
  #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Absolutely-- I'm just proving a point


Somehow certain people have suddenly become much more patient with JVR now that he's gone
********. Now you're making things up. My position on jvr hasn't changed a bit. Go find the post that contradicts my current position on this. You can't, and you point sucks. Go ask leaf fans about his last two seasons.

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06-27-2012, 10:30 PM
  #705
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You can continue to delude yourself, I really dont care one way or another.

Fact: Schenn has not been regressing for two years. His best season in the league was 2010-11.

Fact: You are claiming that the Flyers were impatient with JVR, yet you are bing impatient with Schenn by assuming he will continue to "regress".



That's really all I have to say. And none of it is up for debate-- those are just the truths of this discussion. I'm sorry if you dont agree, I dont know what to tell ya, "guy".

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06-27-2012, 10:41 PM
  #706
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The Leafs rushed Schenn into the league and didn't give him any time to develop the game's hardest position to play at the NHL level. On top of that, Ron Wilson tried to play head games with him as a motivation tactic. Lastly, the Leafs were awful and Schenn was thrown to the wolves. An overwhelming percentage of people who actually get paid to cover the game have unanimously said they feel Schenn will benefit a lot from a change of scenery, including Don Cherry who is a huge Leafs supporter. Look at the path Alex Pietrangelo took. He was drafted ahead of Schenn in the same year and spent a couple of year developing his game in juniors and in the minors while Schenn was overwhelmed and learning on the job under intense pressure and spotlight. The Blues knew exactly what they were doing and refused to rush a player who wasn't ready for the NHL into the lineup. The Leafs did the opposite and Schenn struggled a bit. No surprise, really.

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06-27-2012, 10:44 PM
  #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
You can continue to delude yourself, I really dont care one way or another.

Fact: Schenn has not been regressing for two years. His best season in the league was 2010-11.

Fact: You are claiming that the Flyers were impatient with JVR, yet you are bing impatient with Schenn by assuming he will continue to "regress".



That's really all I have to say. And none of it is up for debate-- those are just the truths of this discussion. I'm sorry if you dont agree, I dont know what to tell ya, "guy".
Why isn't it up for debate, because you said so? You can place the word fact in front of your opinion as many times as you like it won't change the nature of the statements.

And for the last time, yes I'm less patient with schenn...because his play merritts my impatience. JVR's play does not.

I am under no obligation to treat the 2 the same, they're not the same player. You seem to think my different treatment of the two constitutes some sort of hypocricy or foolish shortsightedness, and that you have some sort of clever point or have caught me changing course on jvr. Your point is premised on stupidity and a poor evaluation of schenn, and my position on jvr has never changed.

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06-27-2012, 10:47 PM
  #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
The Leafs rushed Schenn into the league and didn't give him any time to develop the game's hardest position to play at the NHL level. On top of that, Ron Wilson tried to play head games with him as a motivation tactic. Lastly, the Leafs were awful and Schenn was thrown to the wolves. An overwhelming percentage of people who actually get paid to cover the game have unanimously said they feel Schenn will benefit a lot from a change of scenery, including Don Cherry who is a huge Leafs supporter. Look at the path Alex Pietrangelo took. He was drafted ahead of Schenn in the same year and spent a couple of year developing his game in juniors and in the minors while Schenn was overwhelmed and learning on the job under intense pressure and spotlight. The Blues knew exactly what they were doing and refused to rush a player who wasn't ready for the NHL into the lineup. The Leafs did the opposite and Schenn struggled a bit. No surprise, really.
That probably didn't help schenn, bug the comparison is a reach because pietrangelo has physical tools and skills schenn never has and certainly isn't likely to develop.

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06-27-2012, 10:58 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
That probably didn't help schenn, bug the comparison is a reach because pietrangelo has physical tools and skills schenn never has and certainly isn't likely to develop.
Physical tools are one thing. Pietrangelo was blessed with those elite tools as a teenager coming out of the draft. Playing defense is more than just having physical tools. Even the current Norris Trophy winner (Karlsson who was drafted in the same year as Schenn/Pietrangelo) spent more time playing in the SEL, followed by the AHL after being drafted. What young players (especially defensemen) need to adjust to the most is the speed, systems and pressure that comes with playing in the best league in the world. In a perfect world, Schenn would have returned to juniors to dominate and improve his game (and gain more confidence) until he was ready for a brief stint in the AHL to play against men before he was called up to the Leafs full time. That's the path Pietrangelo and Karlsson took. Confidence is a huge part of being successful in the NHL. The Leafs tossed Schenn into a no-win situation which didn't help his confidence in any way.

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06-27-2012, 11:06 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Why isn't it up for debate, because you said so? You can place the word fact in front of your opinion as many times as you like it won't change the nature of the statements.

And for the last time, yes I'm less patient with schenn...because his play merritts my impatience. JVR's play does not.

I am under no obligation to treat the 2 the same, they're not the same player. You seem to think my different treatment of the two constitutes some sort of hypocricy or foolish shortsightedness, and that you have some sort of clever point or have caught me changing course on jvr. Your point is premised on stupidity and a poor evaluation of schenn, and my position on jvr has never changed.
At least you can admit that you're being unfairly impatient with Schenn


Schenn and JVR are essentially the same age. I think it's unreasonable for you to expect Schenn to be performing to his potential by now when you are willing to excuse the fact that JVR is not. Furthermore, your entire premise for doing so is faulty-- Schenn has not been "consistently regressing for two years". He's had one great year followed by one down year.


Both are young and inconsistent. Nothing in their play lends credence to your refusal to judge them under the same scope. For whatever reason, you openly admit that you are being impatient with Schenn, but not JVR. For what reason? You have yet to provide me a reason why you are admittedly impatient with Schenn, but willing to wait years for JVR.

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06-27-2012, 11:18 PM
  #711
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JVR has had injuries, Schenn hasn't. JVR has excuses for not performing. Schenn's excuse is what?

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06-27-2012, 11:24 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
JVR has had injuries, Schenn hasn't. JVR has excuses for not performing. Schenn's excuse is what?
Young and inexperienced? Terribly mismanaged by a horrible coach?


Not to mention, JVR didnt really have injury troubles before this season. He was still inconsistent.


Young players often have consistency issues. You just have to wait for them to grow out of it. Again, I dont understand why people are so open to wait for JVR.......but not Schenn.

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06-27-2012, 11:25 PM
  #713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
At least you can admit that you're being unfairly impatient with Schenn


Schenn and JVR are essentially the same age. I think it's unreasonable for you to expect Schenn to be performing to his potential by now when you are willing to excuse the fact that JVR is not. Furthermore, your entire premise for doing so is faulty-- Schenn has not been "consistently regressing for two years". He's had one great year followed by one down year.


Both are young and inconsistent. Nothing in their play lends credence to your refusal to judge them under the same scope. For whatever reason, you openly admit that you are being impatient with Schenn, but not JVR. For what reason? You have yet to provide me a reason why you are admittedly impatient with Schenn, but willing to wait years for JVR.
I admit that I am being rightfully impatient with schenn. There's nothing unfair about it. His play doesn't merit any confidence.

Jvr was a good player last year, then had a monster play offs, then had a great start to this year before getting a myriad of injuries. Why wouldn't we want to hang on to him? Schenn had a good rookie year, decent start to the second year, leveled off then started to fall off to the point where he was worse than when he came into the league. He now sucks.

Will he always suck? Maybe not, but I'd bet my foot that at no point in his time on the flyers is he a better player than a healthy jvr.

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06-27-2012, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Jvr was a good player last year, then had a monster play offs, then had a great start to this year before getting a myriad of injuries. Why wouldn't we want to hang on to him? Schenn had a good rookie year, decent start to the second year, leveled off then started to fall off to the point where he was worse than when he came into the league. He now sucks.
That's a fun narrative, but I find it telling that you skipped Schenn's best season in the league.

Once again, both are young and inexperienced. Both have had high highs and low lows. Neither have been able to stay high for very long. You need to have patience with both of them, because they both have proven just as much as the other: not very much.

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06-27-2012, 11:30 PM
  #715
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Young and inexperienced? Terribly mismanaged by a horrible coach?


Not to mention, JVR didnt really have injury troubles before this season. He was still inconsistent.


Young players often have consistency issues. You just have to wait for them to grow out of it. Again, I dont understand why people are so open to wait for JVR.......but not Schenn.
Remind me, how good are the Flyers at developing young defensemen?

Edit: I also don't know how you're completely ignoring the fact that one is injured, the other healthy. That makes a huge difference.

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06-27-2012, 11:31 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Remind me, how good are the Flyers at developing young defensemen?
I have no clue what this has to do with my point.

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06-27-2012, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
That's a fun narrative, but I find it telling that you skipped Schenn's best season in the league.

Once again, both are young and inexperienced. Both have had high highs and low lows. Neither have been able to stay high for very long. You need to have patience with both of them, because they both have proven just as much as the other: not very much.
Schenn hasn't ever, for more than a game been the best player on his team. He has not shown as much as jvr.

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06-27-2012, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Schenn hasn't ever, for more than a game been the best player on his team. He has not shown as much as jvr.
Do you really want me to poke holes in this argument?

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06-27-2012, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I have no clue what this has to do with my point.
The Flyers are terrible at developing young defensemen, like Schenn. They don't have a lot of success. What makes you think they can turn him around?

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06-27-2012, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
The Flyers are terrible at developing young defensemen, like Schenn. They don't have a lot of success. What makes you think they can turn him around?
Nothing.....


But that doesnt have a thing to do with why you are patient with JVR, but not with Schenn. I dont know where you're going with this one...

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06-27-2012, 11:37 PM
  #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Do you really want me to poke holes in this argument?
Try if you please. At this point your just being contrary. This was a bad trade and you know it.

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06-27-2012, 11:44 PM
  #722
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Try if you please. At this point your just being contrary. This was a bad trade and you know it.
How often was Adam Foote the best player on his team? Come on man.


Guys like Marc Staal, Brayden Coburn, Niklas Kronwall...how often are they the best players on their teams? Luke Schenn doesnt have to be the best player on the ice to be valuable.

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06-27-2012, 11:48 PM
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Nothing.....


But that doesnt have a thing to do with why you are patient with JVR, but not with Schenn. I dont know where you're going with this one...
Injuries vs Healthy.

How many times do we have to go in this circle?

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06-27-2012, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Injuries vs Healthy.

How many times do we have to go in this circle?
WTF, that has nothing to do with bringing up how good we are with developing defensemen


As for injuries? That's absolutely a good excuse for JVR. When did I say it wasnt? I never said we shouldnt be patient with JVR. I said we need to be patient with both of them.

Are you just trying to disagree with me just for the sake of it? Because it really seems like you are...

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06-27-2012, 11:52 PM
  #725
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Injuries vs Healthy.

How many times do we have to go in this circle?
Several times until he gets dizzy and falls down

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