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JVR traded to Toronto for Luke Schenn

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06-28-2012, 01:03 AM
  #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
WTF, that has nothing to do with bringing up how good we are with developing defensemen


As for injuries? That's absolutely a good excuse for JVR. When did I say it wasnt? I never said we shouldnt be patient with JVR. I said we need to be patient with both of them.

Are you just trying to disagree with me just for the sake of it? Because it really seems like you are...
There is less reason to be patient with Schenn because he has been downright bad with fairly easy minutes, and he's been healthy. Saying he was in a bad coaching situation doesn't alleviate much of that, because the Flyers themselves aren't good for young defensemen who are struggling to develop into their potential...unlike Mez, dropping him into a lower role won't automatically help him, because he's already in a crap role; he has a deeper hole to climb out of. There is a TON of reasons to be more critical of Schenn than JVR.

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06-28-2012, 01:05 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
To be fair, many people were starting to lose patience with JVR long before he was traded.

I will give Schenn a fair chance to prove himself.
people were giving up on JVR when he was at UNH as well when he wasnt producing enough when it was just him and Bobby Butler who could score. I am not even going to get into this college/junior hockey developmental arguement because its all just based on opinion.
PPG wasnt enough for some in college. whatever. This will give even more people to hate JVR.
I actually almost feel bad for Luke Schenn because he is going to have to play at a very high level, not make any mistakes ect ect for people to like him/justify the trade.

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06-28-2012, 01:07 AM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
How often was Adam Foote the best player on his team? Come on man.


Guys like Marc Staal, Brayden Coburn, Niklas Kronwall...how often are they the best players on their teams? Luke Schenn doesnt have to be the best player on the ice to be valuable.


JVR: Was the best player for the last two months of the season and two series on a play off team and cup finalist. Started strong before the injuries.

Schenn: at his best was the number two or three dman on a perrenial lottery team.


They have not shown the same amount of talent or consistency. I'm done here man.

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06-28-2012, 01:12 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
There is less reason to be patient with Schenn because he has been downright bad with fairly easy minutes, and he's been healthy. Saying he was in a bad coaching situation doesn't alleviate much of that, because the Flyers themselves aren't good for young defensemen who are struggling to develop into their potential...unlike Mez, dropping him into a lower role won't automatically help him, because he's already in a crap role; he has a deeper hole to climb out of. There is a TON of reasons to be more critical of Schenn than JVR.
We're bad at developing defenders when we draft them. Schenn is a young, high potential NHL defender. The last defender in a remotely similar position was probably Coburn, and he turned out alright. Maybe it's late and my memory's gone, but am I wrong? I'm seriously asking. I dont remember being in this position with a defender before.

I struggle to see any reason why we cant be patient with Schenn. He has shown that he has the ability to play at a high level. So has JVR. This is about allowing both players a chance to develop and play to their potential consistently. I dont get why we can allow JVR so much time, but not allow the same amount of time for Schenn.

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06-28-2012, 01:13 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
The Flyers are terrible at developing young defensemen, like Schenn. They don't have a lot of success. What makes you think they can turn him around?
Braydon Coburn. (came to Flyers at 22-underachieving tag).
Andrej Meszaros (underachieving in Tampa)
Nicklas Grossmann (coming off a lackluster year in Dallas)

The Flyers have a difficult time growing their own defenseman, but it isn't clear that they cannot foster NHL defensemen that need a change of scenery.

Just being contrarian.

I'm sure everyone will fuss, but there truly is a difference between raising up the likes of Gus/MAB, etc and getting a struggling NHL ready prospect or guy having an off year.

Recently, the Flyers have done well with a few of them.


Last edited by Flyotes: 06-28-2012 at 01:16 AM. Reason: i kan speel
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06-28-2012, 01:15 AM
  #731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
We're bad at developing defenders when we draft them. Schenn is a young, high potential NHL defender. The last defender in a remotely similar position was probably Coburn, and he turned out alright. Maybe it's late and my memory's gone, but am I wrong? I'm seriously asking. I dont remember being in this position with a defender before.

I struggle to see any reason why we cant be patient with Schenn. He has shown that he has the ability to play at a high level. So has JVR. This is about allowing both players a chance to develop and play to their potential consistently. I dont get why we can allow JVR so much time, but not allow the same amount of time for Schenn.
Coburn wasn't terrible and a disappointment when we acquired him, at least not that I remember. Certainly not on the level of Schenn.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be patient with Schenn. Obviously we ought to give him some time to see what he does here. What I'm saying is that he doesn't deserve the time JVR got, because JVR was injured. A lot. We don't know what he can do healthy. We've seen what Schenn can do healthy.

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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Braydon Coburn. (came to Flyers at 22-underachieving tag).
Andrej Meszaros (underachieving in Tampa)
Nicklas Grossmann (coming off a lackluster year in Dallas)

The Flyers have a difficult time growing their own defenseman, but it isn't clear that they cannot foster NHL defensemen that need a change of scenery.

Just being contarian.

I'm sure everyone will fuss, but there truly is a difference between raising up the likes of Gus/MAB, etc and getting a struggling NHL ready prospect or guy having an off year.

Recently, the Flyers have done well with a few of them.
Mez hasn't truly been fixed, he was just dropped into a lower role, given less responsibility; if we bumped him up for a season I don't know how that would go, from what I've seen of him. Grossman we really haven't seen enough of yet. Coburn I don't recall being the level of disappointment that Schenn has been in Toronto.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 06-28-2012 at 01:20 AM. Reason: merged
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06-28-2012, 01:20 AM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Coburn wasn't terrible and a disappointment when we acquired him, at least not that I remember. Certainly not on the level of Schenn.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be patient with Schenn. Obviously we ought to give him some time to see what he does here. What I'm saying is that he doesn't deserve the time JVR got, because JVR was injured. A lot. We don't know what he can do healthy. We've seen what Schenn can do healthy.
The Flyers also basically got Coburn for free, so any hiccups in his development was easier to take. I dont think its fair to write the guy off before hes even played a game here.
I am not a fan of the trade. Not by a long shot, but I am willing to give Luke a shot. I am not going to take a big dump all over him like some want to. but I accept thas the way it is around here.

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06-28-2012, 01:21 AM
  #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Mez hasn't truly been fixed, he was just dropped into a lower role, given less responsibility; if we bumped him up for a season I don't know how that would go, from what I've seen of him. Grossman we really haven't seen enough of yet. Coburn I don't recall being the level of disappointment that Schenn has been in Toronto.
Coburn wasn't even In NHL a full season yet I believe, so I don't ink it's fair to compare them, he only had 38 NHL games with Atlanta when we got him

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06-28-2012, 01:22 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Coburn wasn't terrible and a disappointment when we acquired him, at least not that I remember. Certainly not on the level of Schenn.
So what if we acquired Schenn last summer? Would you be more optimistic?

And Coburn was an 8th overall pick in 2003. He toiled in the AHL and struggled to land a full time role in Atlanta. He was traded to Philly, and consistency was his biggest issue.

IDK, seems pretty similar to me. To be honest, I dont remember all the specifics surrounding the Coburn deal (other than it being a huge steal), but we were patient with Coburn and it worked out great.

Quote:
I'm not saying we shouldn't be patient with Schenn. Obviously we ought to give him some time to see what he does here. What I'm saying is that he doesn't deserve the time JVR got, because JVR was injured. A lot. We don't know what he can do healthy. We've seen what Schenn can do healthy.
We have. And he's been pretty good. 2010-11 was a great year for him.

Maybe this is just the difference between being an optimist and a pessimist? I dont know-- I'm just saying we should wait this out at least a couple months before labeling it a bad deal.

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06-28-2012, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Mez hasn't truly been fixed, he was just dropped into a lower role, given less responsibility; if we bumped him up for a season I don't know how that would go, from what I've seen of him. Grossman we really haven't seen enough of yet. Coburn I don't recall being the level of disappointment that Schenn has been in Toronto.
I don't like Mez (the player), but he had one really promising year and has fallen off since. Grossmann looks great. Coburn may not be the same level of disappointment, but that doesn't negate the point that the Flyers aren't bad at fostering defensemen necessarily.

Hell, Coburn was having a hard time in Atlanta, came here, and minus a few bumps, has quietly become a great player.

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06-28-2012, 01:23 AM
  #736
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Coburn wasn't even In NHL a full season yet I believe, so I don't ink it's fair to compare them, he only had 38 NHL games with Atlanta when we got him
Ok, I barely remember Coburn from before we got him. That's likely why. There's a much larger sample size to work with for Schenn.

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06-28-2012, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Ok, I barely remember Coburn from before we got him. That's likely why. There's a much larger sample size to work with for Schenn.
Coburn was on that Chicago Wolves team that the Phantoms beat for the Calder Cup in the strike year.

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06-28-2012, 01:28 AM
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Good or bad, Schenn does head hunt.

You'll at least be happy the 3-4 times a year he smears someone all across the boards.

Schenn is in good company at least. If anyone can teach him how to grow into a stay at home defenseman, he has Coburn and Kimmo for other things. I would imagine he'll drop some weight, become lankier and lighter, and hopefully a bit faster, like Coburn.

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06-28-2012, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Ok, I barely remember Coburn from before we got him. That's likely why. There's a much larger sample size to work with for Schenn.
I understand that but I feel a change of scenery, system, playing with brother and a new hockey market, he will be better, I stil think the trade winner can't be determined until 2 season later. If schenn plays like he did in 2011-2011 and JVR plays like he always has, people wil say we win e trade, I still feel schenn isn't a number one guy he is a number two, JVR I think will have 60 points this years as well, so I'm 50/50 on is,it also depends on who we replace JVR with

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06-28-2012, 09:14 AM
  #740
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Yeah Hopefully Pronger will be able to help coach Schenn

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06-28-2012, 09:36 AM
  #741
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I'm one Leaf fan who does not like this trade. You guys are going to love Schenn.

Schenn's skill and ability is very underrated. He has shutdown capabilities and it might surprise people to know that he was 45th among league defencemen in even strength scoring. He scored more points at even strength than Ryan Suter.

Always among league leaders in hits and blocked shots and for a physical player he rarely takes penalties.

Skill is not his problem. His confidence was shattered by the end of his time in Toronto.

In his rookie season we saw a shades of dominant defensive defenceman who could play 20 ++ minutes and rarely make a mental error.

In his second season we acquired Komisarek and Beauchemin and Schenn saw his role reduced from day one of the season, really for no reason other than the fact they were older and more experienced. That, more than anything, took a lot of wind out of his sails.

His ice time was cut back and he was trying to overcompensate to win it back.

Ron Wilson then made a stupid rule for him that he was always to have two hands on his stick at all times in the defensive zone, which he never really seemed comfortable with.

Then, at 22 years old, he was a four year vet with a big contract and a terrible coach who had no semblance of a defensive system. He was too young to deal with all the crap and pressure put on him in Toronto.

He'll flourish with you guys. Just wait- you will love this trade.

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06-28-2012, 09:44 AM
  #742
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I think the best chance for Schenn to succeed is to sign Carle so people will hate him instead of Schenn. Flyers' fans gotta have someone to hate, so as long as Schenn is not it, he should do OK.

I think his physical-ness will make Flyer fans like him, even if he makes mistakes. If he is able to crunch Crosby and his ilk, fans will love him.

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06-28-2012, 09:47 AM
  #743
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It's pretty amazing how harsh some of you are being toward Schenn and how high you are holding JvR. Aside from a stretch of a month long two seasons ago, JvR has not done any more than Schenn has done in his career. Regardless of whether it is because of injuries or not, pointing to a month long stretch two seasons ago is not exactly "proof" that one player is better than the other. Schenn is a solid defender, who is 22 years old, who has nowhere to go but up. JvR, is a solid winger who is 23 years old with nowhere to go but up. It is absolutely possible for JvR to turn into something great and Schenn get burried in the minors. But the opposite is also just as possible. This team is in desperate need of defense. An up and coming high ceiling defender is so much more valuable to this team than an up and coming high ceiling winger it isn't even close (even if the high ceiling winger's ceiling is higher than the defenders). Neither have shown that they can consistently live up to their hype. JvR has shown flashes. So has Schenn. Take the blinders off for a second and realize we got a good young player.

It's not like we traded Scottie Upshall away!

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06-28-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It's pretty amazing how harsh some of you are being toward Schenn and how high you are holding JvR. Aside from a stretch of a month long two seasons ago, JvR has not done any more than Schenn has done in his career. Regardless of whether it is because of injuries or not, pointing to a month long stretch two seasons ago is not exactly "proof" that one player is better than the other. Schenn is a solid defender, who is 22 years old, who has nowhere to go but up. JvR, is a solid winger who is 23 years old with nowhere to go but up. It is absolutely possible for JvR to turn into something great and Schenn get burried in the minors. But the opposite is also just as possible. This team is in desperate need of defense. An up and coming high ceiling defender is so much more valuable to this team than an up and coming high ceiling winger it isn't even close (even if the high ceiling winger's ceiling is higher than the defenders). Neither have shown that they can consistently live up to their hype. JvR has shown flashes. So has Schenn. Take the blinders off for a second and realize we got a good young player.

It's not like we traded Scottie Upshall away!
Your main problem is that you are using common sense. Who let you onto this website?

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06-28-2012, 10:11 AM
  #745
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It was a joke, but yeah, Schenn needs to drop some pounds regardless. He needs to skate in our system, or he will be eaten alive.

Bag skate him all summer.
At least he plays hard and when he is hurt. Not like some pansy ass he was moved for

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06-28-2012, 10:14 AM
  #746
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I'm one Leaf fan who does not like this trade. You guys are going to love Schenn.

Schenn's skill and ability is very underrated. He has shutdown capabilities and it might surprise people to know that he was 45th among league defencemen in even strength scoring. He scored more points at even strength than Ryan Suter.

Always among league leaders in hits and blocked shots and for a physical player he rarely takes penalties.

Skill is not his problem. His confidence was shattered by the end of his time in Toronto.

In his rookie season we saw a shades of dominant defensive defenceman who could play 20 ++ minutes and rarely make a mental error.

In his second season we acquired Komisarek and Beauchemin and Schenn saw his role reduced from day one of the season, really for no reason other than the fact they were older and more experienced. That, more than anything, took a lot of wind out of his sails.

His ice time was cut back and he was trying to overcompensate to win it back.

Ron Wilson then made a stupid rule for him that he was always to have two hands on his stick at all times in the defensive zone, which he never really seemed comfortable with.

Then, at 22 years old, he was a four year vet with a big contract and a terrible coach who had no semblance of a defensive system. He was too young to deal with all the crap and pressure put on him in Toronto.

He'll flourish with you guys. Just wait- you will love this trade.
We need more Luke Schenn-related posts like this. Thank you, sir, here's to hoping you're right. It really does sound like just a change of scenery would do Luke a world of good -- even more so when that change of scenery includes coming to play with his brother. Fingers crossed.

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06-28-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
JVR has had injuries, Schenn hasn't. JVR has excuses for not performing. Schenn's excuse is what?
Three years worth??!!

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06-28-2012, 10:26 AM
  #748
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Three years worth??!!
Dudewas on the Flyers and people liked him. He will have a lifetime of excuses. If people didn't like him (see: Carle, Matt) he'd be the whipping boy, even when he succeeded. Schenn better impress right away or he will be the new Matt Carle and this trade will haunt these message boards like Scottie Upshall and a 2nd for Dan Carcillo, the trade that took away at least 12 MVP trophies and 9 Stanley Cups from this city!

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06-28-2012, 11:03 AM
  #749
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Its amazing how people are willing to throw jvr under the bus to defend holmgren at all costs. Oh, I forgot...he's never made a bad move or signing.

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06-28-2012, 11:10 AM
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Its amazing how people are willing to throw jvr under the bus to defend holmgren at all costs. Oh, I forgot...he's never made a bad move or signing.
Lol. No one is throwing him under the bus (at least I am not). I have been saying since the trade deadline that JvR is expendable and this team needs a young defenseman with a high ceiling. JvR is a good player. I am not knocking him any way. I'm just saying he really hasn't done much to warrant the OMG response this trade is getting, especially when we are getting an equally unproven, high-ceiling guy in return. This team has a slew of young, talented forwards. Talented forwards are a lot easier to come by than talented defenders. Especially right handed. Especially young. I know that Scehnn was a healthy scratch twice this season, which means he will likely never make an NHL team again, but he is 22 years old. It is so rare that 22 year olds ever get scratched, I understand this. But I think despite this truly damning fact, he still has a chance to reach his potential. I also understand that JvR would have scored 200 points this season if he wasn't injured, because he had a good month to end the season the year before. But it is still possible that that doesn't happen. When JvR wins his fourth Hart Trophy and Luke Schenn is riding the bus in the ECHL, I'll eat my words. But come on, be reaosnable. Two young, unproven, high-ceiling players were traded. The one we got potentially fills an incredibly gaping hole in our system. The other is expendable due to the presence of the onslaught of young offensive weapons we have. Is this really that hard to see?

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