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Bouwmeester to St. Louis

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Old
06-24-2012, 09:31 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
What about a pick (1st or 2nd), McRae, and Russell/D'Agostini.

We could meet in the middle for the pick and make it the Ottawa 2nd.
With McRae being the only real center prospect the Blues have at the moment, I'm gonna say that they'd probably pass on including him in any kind of deal.

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06-24-2012, 09:49 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BleedBlue247 View Post
There's two that are on the market right now that fit the bill. Personally I would rather let Cole play to start the year and see how he does. People are so quick to want to dump off our depth, but they apparently forget that our depth was the only reason we were able to survive multiple injuries to key players last year. I'd rather pass on J-bo
1) Cole got his shot with Pietrangelo and he didn't do well at all. His compete level wasn't high enough and his positioning was inconsistent. You can live with that from a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy who is playing sheltered minutes, but he is not even remotely an option for the top pairing. He still needs to mature quite a bit before he's ready for that.

Soft or not, Bouwmeester is a legit top pairing D man with an offensive package that should excel in a different system than Calgary's.

2) We currently have 8 scoring line wingers(McDonald, Perron, Oshie, Steen, Stewart, Tarasenko, D'Agostini, Schwartz), 3 NHL caliber grinders(Reaves, Crombeen, Grachev) plus we're pretty certain to be bringing back Langenbrunner. Moving D'Agostini does not do any appreciable damage to our depth. You're basically replacing D'Ags with Schwartz, and that is hardly a downgrade. Losing Cole isn't going to kill us as 7th D men are available for extremely little on the UFA market.

D'Agostini, Cole and a 2nd for Bouwmeester and a 3rd is a deal that works for both teams. We'd only be taking on 3.9 mil in the deal, which gives us enough flexibility to get a center and 7th D man from the FA pool.

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06-24-2012, 09:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) Cole got his shot with Pietrangelo and he didn't do well at all. His compete level wasn't high enough and his positioning was inconsistent. You can live with that from a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy who is playing sheltered minutes, but he is not even remotely an option for the top pairing. He still needs to mature quite a bit before he's ready for that.

Soft or not, Bouwmeester is a legit top pairing D man with an offensive package that should excel in a different system than Calgary's.

2) We currently have 8 scoring line wingers(McDonald, Perron, Oshie, Steen, Stewart, Tarasenko, D'Agostini, Schwartz), 3 NHL caliber grinders(Reaves, Crombeen, Grachev) plus we're pretty certain to be bringing back Langenbrunner. Moving D'Agostini does not do any appreciable damage to our depth. You're basically replacing D'Ags with Schwartz, and that is hardly a downgrade. Losing Cole isn't going to kill us as 7th D men are available for extremely little on the UFA market.

D'Agostini, Cole and a 2nd for Bouwmeester and a 3rd is a deal that works for both teams. We'd only be taking on 3.9 mil in the deal, which gives us enough flexibility to get a center and 7th D man from the FA pool.
Or trade Dag's for picks or prospects and sign a dman without giving up Cole and not taking a player who is not worth his cap hit. For 6.68mil we can do better.

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06-24-2012, 09:53 PM
  #104
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If the Blues are interested, I think the deal tops out at D'Agostini and a second, and I think that deal only happens at mid-season or so.

I'm not as down on Bouwmeester as some (although the Peca video is tough to get past), but if the Blues are willing to pay Bouwmeester $7 million, they'd surely be willing to pay Suter that same amount. After that, they have Garrison as an option at $5.5 (at which point he's overpaid, but that's what it will take IMO). The only advantage Bouwmeester has in either scenario is a shorter contract, which makes the long term downside less if the acquisition blows up (although I suspect there's nearly zero chance that Suter blows up).

Suter is a long shot, but if the Blues can afford to play in his market, he has to be the first option.

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06-24-2012, 09:56 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) Cole got his shot with Pietrangelo and he didn't do well at all. His compete level wasn't high enough and his positioning was inconsistent. You can live with that from a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy who is playing sheltered minutes, but he is not even remotely an option for the top pairing. He still needs to mature quite a bit before he's ready for that.

Soft or not, Bouwmeester is a legit top pairing D man with an offensive package that should excel in a different system than Calgary's.

2) We currently have 8 scoring line wingers(McDonald, Perron, Oshie, Steen, Stewart, Tarasenko, D'Agostini, Schwartz), 3 NHL caliber grinders(Reaves, Crombeen, Grachev) plus we're pretty certain to be bringing back Langenbrunner. Moving D'Agostini does not do any appreciable damage to our depth. You're basically replacing D'Ags with Schwartz, and that is hardly a downgrade. Losing Cole isn't going to kill us as 7th D men are available for extremely little on the UFA market.

D'Agostini, Cole and a 2nd for Bouwmeester and a 3rd is a deal that works for both teams. We'd only be taking on 3.9 mil in the deal, which gives us enough flexibility to get a center and 7th D man from the FA pool.
I think those are two of Bouws major attributes right there. If you were frustrated with Cole for cheap you would LOVE Bouwmeester being a clone of that for 7 million a year And Jay doesn't have an offensive package in fact I've never seen him even try a slap shot from the point.... unless Sutter bans him from doing that as well

Like it or not Bouwmeester is a debatable top line pairing but I'd say would fit in perfect as a number 3/4 d man on most teams.

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06-24-2012, 10:05 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) Cole got his shot with Pietrangelo and he didn't do well at all. His compete level wasn't high enough and his positioning was inconsistent. You can live with that from a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy who is playing sheltered minutes, but he is not even remotely an option for the top pairing. He still needs to mature quite a bit before he's ready for that.

Soft or not, Bouwmeester is a legit top pairing D man with an offensive package that should excel in a different system than Calgary's.

2) We currently have 8 scoring line wingers(McDonald, Perron, Oshie, Steen, Stewart, Tarasenko, D'Agostini, Schwartz), 3 NHL caliber grinders(Reaves, Crombeen, Grachev) plus we're pretty certain to be bringing back Langenbrunner. Moving D'Agostini does not do any appreciable damage to our depth. You're basically replacing D'Ags with Schwartz, and that is hardly a downgrade. Losing Cole isn't going to kill us as 7th D men are available for extremely little on the UFA market.

D'Agostini, Cole and a 2nd for Bouwmeester and a 3rd is a deal that works for both teams. We'd only be taking on 3.9 mil in the deal, which gives us enough flexibility to get a center and 7th D man from the FA pool.
Cole is also still young, and spent the entire season in and out of the line up. Sure he was inconsistent. But he had some games where he was an absolute beast. He has the talent. And like i said earlier, I want him to have a chance. He can't be any worse than Colaiacovo. And I don't want to touch Bouwmeester with a 99 foot pole. And I'm of the opinion that Schwartz does not start the year in St. Louis. The best thing for his development is to play top six minutes. He's not going to do that with the big club this year. I'd be ok with him being the first skill call up but not starting the year here. And you can never have enough depth.

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06-24-2012, 10:38 PM
  #107
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Im glad to hear you change your mind a little. the only thing i would say is that "Bouwmeester should be at least 3rd on our list behind Suter and Garrison", should probably say be at most the 3rd on our list b/c i can think of plenty of people id rather have play with Pietrangelo the Jaybo.
I never advocating Jaybo, I just threw this out there because of Strickland. I've always thought he was massively overrated, but next to Pietrangelo, I think he would be a lot better than some think.

Maybe what I wrote wasn't the clearest. The highest he should be is 3rd, and that is if Suter, Garrison, and Jaybo are the only 3 on the list.

I don't think Yandle or Staal are realistic at all, and if we make a trade Jaybo will be one of the more realistic options.

I trust Army and Hitch in player decisions, so if they go after Jaybo, I trust their decision.

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Old
06-24-2012, 10:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by thaman8765678 View Post
I think those are two of Bouws major attributes right there. If you were frustrated with Cole for cheap you would LOVE Bouwmeester being a clone of that for 7 million a year And Jay doesn't have an offensive package in fact I've never seen him even try a slap shot from the point.... unless Sutter bans him from doing that as well

Like it or not Bouwmeester is a debatable top line pairing but I'd say would fit in perfect as a number 3/4 d man on most teams.
Do you know anything about Bouw?

I can tell you haven't ever watched him. His positioning is phenomenal, and he competes well. He makes it look effortless when he skates, which doesn't mean he doesn't try.

Bouw is an ideal 1B/2A, but yes he is overpaid and misused in Calgary. He likes to jump into the rush, and pinch. He doesn't do that much here. This explains his goals and points. Calgary also is a very low scoring team which also explains his lack of production.

If you cared to actually watch him play, you'd realize this.

He doesn't have a very good slap shot, but he does use it occasionally. It's just not one of his strengths. He has a good wrist shot though, and elite level stick work defending.

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06-24-2012, 11:13 PM
  #109
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Do you know anything about Bouw?

I can tell you haven't ever watched him. His positioning is phenomenal, and he competes well. He makes it look effortless when he skates, which doesn't mean he doesn't try.

Bouw is an ideal 1B/2A, but yes he is overpaid and misused in Calgary. He likes to jump into the rush, and pinch. He doesn't do that much here. This explains his goals and points. Calgary also is a very low scoring team which also explains his lack of production.

If you cared to actually watch him play, you'd realize this.

He doesn't have a very good slap shot, but he does use it occasionally. It's just not one of his strengths. He has a good wrist shot though, and elite level stick work defending.
I have watched him in fact watched over 70 Flames games each of the last three years. I would say his positioning is good in general but he does tend to get caught out of position alot and gets burned a few times a game because of this. As far as "competing well" I just have never seen that from him. I'd say if he competed well and put in effort he could be an elite defenceman... unforunately he doesn't seem to care much about becoming better as he seems to regress every year.

Calgary was actually a very good scoring team last year but their defence wasn't too good. Care to explain Jay's lack of production and having one more point on the year than Tim Jackman who played six minutes a night? You'd think playing 30 minutes a night would let you have a few more scoring chances than a 4th liner?

As far as "elite level stickwork" I would strongly disagree with you there. Lidstrom has elite level stickwork where he makes it tough for defenders to get past him. Bouwmeester is above average best at stick work but probably closer to average than some would think. He is not hard to play against as he refuses to hit or show any aggression when opposition enters the zone.

I'd say Jay at best is a #2 defender but a very poor one at that. I'd slot him more in the #3/4 range if you want to put him in a comfort zone. The fact is he is below average offensively, average defensively, and below average physically. He skates good but that hardly makes up for how poor he is in many areas of the game that are crucial to team success. And all this without mentioning that whenever the playoffs are on the line and there are big games Bouwmeester tends to disappear into oblivion for the next week. Don't worry though he plays alright again after the playoffs are out of reach as every Flames fan and Panthers fan has witnessed the past 4 years. Fact is you cannot win with the tin man on your top pairing end of story.

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06-24-2012, 11:25 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by thaman8765678 View Post
I have watched him in fact watched over 70 Flames games each of the last three years. I would say his positioning is good in general but he does tend to get caught out of position alot and gets burned a few times a game because of this. As far as "competing well" I just have never seen that from him. I'd say if he competed well and put in effort he could be an elite defenceman... unforunately he doesn't seem to care much about becoming better as he seems to regress every year.

Calgary was actually a very good scoring team last year but their defence wasn't too good. Care to explain Jay's lack of production and having one more point on the year than Tim Jackman who played six minutes a night? You'd think playing 30 minutes a night would let you have a few more scoring chances than a 4th liner?

As far as "elite level stickwork" I would strongly disagree with you there. Lidstrom has elite level stickwork where he makes it tough for defenders to get past him. Bouwmeester is above average best at stick work but probably closer to average than some would think. He is not hard to play against as he refuses to hit or show any aggression when opposition enters the zone.

I'd say Jay at best is a #2 defender but a very poor one at that. I'd slot him more in the #3/4 range if you want to put him in a comfort zone. The fact is he is below average offensively, average defensively, and below average physically. He skates good but that hardly makes up for how poor he is in many areas of the game that are crucial to team success. And all this without mentioning that whenever the playoffs are on the line and there are big games Bouwmeester tends to disappear into oblivion for the next week. Don't worry though he plays alright again after the playoffs are out of reach as every Flames fan and Panthers fan has witnessed the past 4 years. Fact is you cannot win with the tin man on your top pairing end of story.
That's not a fact, that is your opinion and I would strongly disagree with you.

I have defended him to no end in the past, and quite frankly I don't have the will or time of day to keep rehashing my previous statements.

If he is traded Calgary will miss him immensely, its that simple.
If he goes for a mediocre package around a D'agostini type player I will be furious.

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06-24-2012, 11:45 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by thaman8765678 View Post
I have watched him in fact watched over 70 Flames games each of the last three years. I would say his positioning is good in general but he does tend to get caught out of position alot and gets burned a few times a game because of this. As far as "competing well" I just have never seen that from him. I'd say if he competed well and put in effort he could be an elite defenceman... unforunately he doesn't seem to care much about becoming better as he seems to regress every year.

Calgary was actually a very good scoring team last year but their defence wasn't too good. Care to explain Jay's lack of production and having one more point on the year than Tim Jackman who played six minutes a night? You'd think playing 30 minutes a night would let you have a few more scoring chances than a 4th liner?
I call BS on you watching them play 70 games a season. Regardless, the above post is a matter of opinion. He does not get caught out of position often.

One more point than Jackman? WTF are you looking at. Bouw had 29 points, Jackman had 7. 29-7 =/= 1...

Everything else you have posted is all opinion, or made up "fact"

Before you criticize a player, actually learn about them. Don't follow fanboy opinions and bash on a player who, if he left the Flames, would be sorrily missed. He is a 1 D on several teams and a 2 on most other teams.

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06-24-2012, 11:48 PM
  #112
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Stop defending the guy! There is no way Sutter told Bouwmeester "Ok I want you to go out there float around, never take out the man, don't lay any hits and be as passive as you want". The guy is just soft and lazy how can you not accept that it has nothing to do with a system. I didn't see Sutter's system being a problem for Gio to be aggressive and physical, nor for Brodie to make rushes up the ice and try to provide some offense.

The fact of the matter is that Bouw is unwilling to be aggressive offensively, defensively and physically. He is the iron man of the NHL for a reason.
He won't lay a hit, that's not what you're getting from the guy, but the positional defending, and continuous backing up on defence was a complete Sutter-ism.
He's not physical. He relies on positioning, active sticks and being in the proper spot. That's what you get from him.

I'm not defending the guy, and most of the Flames people here will tell you, I'm not a Bouwmeester fan... but some of you make him out to be the worst D-man in the league.

Overpaid, Yes; valueless, negative.

I honestly suggested a reasonable trade, not like some people suggesting top prospects and picks... It's ridiculous how people over-value/undervalue players they watch compared to those they don't.

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06-24-2012, 11:54 PM
  #113
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Id do rattie and a 2nd for bouwmeester and a 5th

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06-25-2012, 12:09 AM
  #114
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Id do rattie and a 2nd for bouwmeester and a 5th
I wouldn't give up Rattie for him.

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06-25-2012, 12:09 AM
  #115
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Id do rattie and a 2nd for bouwmeester and a 5th
No Blues fan even considers that

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06-25-2012, 12:13 AM
  #116
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I personally can't see Armstrong doing anything more than a 2nd, D'Agostini, and maybe Crombeen as a throw in for salary.

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06-25-2012, 12:25 AM
  #117
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I call BS on you watching them play 70 games a season. Regardless, the above post is a matter of opinion. He does not get caught out of position often.

One more point than Jackman? WTF are you looking at. Bouw had 29 points, Jackman had 7. 29-7 =/= 1...

Everything else you have posted is all opinion, or made up "fact"

Before you criticize a player, actually learn about them. Don't follow fanboy opinions and bash on a player who, if he left the Flames, would be sorrily missed. He is a 1 D on several teams and a 2 on most other teams.
No I meant the 2010-2011 season where I think Bouw had 24 points and Jackman had 23. I do watch them but I guess we watch two different Bouwmeesters because there's no way we're watching the same player if you think he never gets caught out of position.

And for people saying a top prospect and a 2nd for Bouw all I can do is laugh. We would be lucky to get a 2nd when we dump him the salary alone makes him have little to no trade value.

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06-25-2012, 12:34 AM
  #118
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No I meant the 2010-2011 season where I think Bouw had 24 points and Jackman had 23. I do watch them but I guess we watch two different Bouwmeesters because there's no way we're watching the same player if you think he never gets caught out of position.

And for people saying a top prospect and a 2nd for Bouw all I can do is laugh. We would be lucky to get a 2nd when we dump him the salary alone makes him have little to no trade value.
Bouwmeester is a very solid defenseman. He is a number 1 on any team. I do feel his point production fell but snumber many other players since Brent sutter was hired a gm in Calgary. Also the fact that he was brought in the same year that sutter was hired we didnt really get to see the real bouwmeester. One thing though his contract is really messed up. Blame the sutter for that one . I fell this year he will have a strong year regardless where he is. I acctually don't mind him staying in Calgary with the new coach and all, maybe his point production will rise.

However if I were to trade him to the blues Id want rattie and maybe a draft pick. You guys are stacked on the offense an wont need rattie anytime soon, so I fell it will work both ways. Rattie for bouwmeester straight trade or maybe a draft pick included with rattie.

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06-25-2012, 12:38 AM
  #119
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No Blues fan even considers that
Lol then I guess bouwmeester isn't heading to the blues. Calgary wants rattie and no one else just cause the fact he played with bartschi most I the season

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06-25-2012, 12:46 AM
  #120
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Lol then I guess bouwmeester isn't heading to the blues. Calgary wants rattie and no one else just cause the fact he played with bartschi most I the season
If that's truly the case, STL walks away with no regrets. It doesn't make sense for the Blues

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06-25-2012, 12:48 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Flamester View Post
Bouwmeester is a very solid defenseman. He is a number 1 on any team. I do feel his point production fell but snumber many other players since Brent sutter was hired a gm in Calgary. Also the fact that he was brought in the same year that sutter was hired we didnt really get to see the real bouwmeester. One thing though his contract is really messed up. Blame the sutter for that one . I fell this year he will have a strong year regardless where he is. I acctually don't mind him staying in Calgary with the new coach and all, maybe his point production will rise.

However if I were to trade him to the blues Id want rattie and maybe a draft pick. You guys are stacked on the offense an wont need rattie anytime soon, so I fell it will work both ways. Rattie for bouwmeester straight trade or maybe a draft pick included with rattie.
So just because we have a lot of wing depth we should just give away one of our best prospects? I don't think so. You can never have enough high end skill. And Armstrong has proven he's not going to overpay for people. We don't even "need" Bouwmeester. Cole can step in and do an adequate job.

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06-25-2012, 01:27 AM
  #122
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Bouwmeester is terrible and is owed $13.2 million over the next two seasons. No thanks; I'd feel more comfortable letting Cole play top-pairing minutes.
Not sure you understand what terrible means. Bad contract, yes, bad player, not at all. He doesn't score 15 goals a year now but that's really not required to be a valuable player.

On the other hand, Flames fans started off asking for realistic packages then seem to have quickly gone off the rails. Bouwmeester + 3rd <-> D'Agostini + Cole + 2nd looked pretty fair to me? Blues get their top-pair defenseman for a few years and don't have to pay through the nose (asset-wise). Flames don't get a ton back for a top-pairing defenseman, but they're not taking on bad contracts and they free up cap room. Maybe I'm wrong but that looks reasonable enough. Asking for Tarasenko or Berglund or those sorts of players is just being greedy- if JayBo were paid 4.5 or 5 million you could try to make him the centerpiece of that kind of deal, at 6.68 there's no way unless he finds his offense again.


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Bouwmeester is a very solid defenseman. He is a number 1 on any team. I do feel his point production fell but snumber many other players since Brent sutter was hired a gm in Calgary. Also the fact that he was brought in the same year that sutter was hired we didnt really get to see the real bouwmeester. One thing though his contract is really messed up. Blame the sutter for that one . I fell this year he will have a strong year regardless where he is. I acctually don't mind him staying in Calgary with the new coach and all, maybe his point production will rise.

However if I were to trade him to the blues Id want rattie and maybe a draft pick. You guys are stacked on the offense an wont need rattie anytime soon, so I fell it will work both ways. Rattie for bouwmeester straight trade or maybe a draft pick included with rattie.
Dude you don't even know what job Brent Sutter had with the Flames, I'm not sure how good your evaluation of realistic trade options is here.

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06-25-2012, 01:34 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Model T View Post
Not sure you understand what terrible means. Bad contract, yes, bad player, not at all. He doesn't score 15 goals a year now but that's really not required to be a valuable player.

On the other hand, Flames fans started off asking for realistic packages then seem to have quickly gone off the rails. Bouwmeester + 3rd <-> D'Agostini + Cole + 2nd looked pretty fair to me? Blues get their top-pair defenseman for a few years and don't have to pay through the nose (asset-wise). Flames don't get a ton back for a top-pairing defenseman, but they're not taking on bad contracts and they free up cap room. Maybe I'm wrong but that looks reasonable enough. Asking for Tarasenko or Berglund or those sorts of players is just being greedy- if JayBo were paid 4.5 or 5 million you could try to make him the centerpiece of that kind of deal, at 6.68 there's no way unless he finds his offense again.




Dude you don't even know what job Brent Sutter had with the Flames, I'm not sure how good your evaluation of realistic trade options is here.


No trust me Brent tried to put a defensive mindset on everybody on the team. I remember a year back they had this issue and iggy was pretty post that he wante him to play defense more , bouwmeester is a guy who like to play in the offensive side but Brent restricted him from it a lot .

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06-25-2012, 01:47 AM
  #124
Hail Stannis
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Don't the Blues need offense more than defense?

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06-25-2012, 02:01 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
Bouwmeester is terrible and is owed $13.2 million over the next two seasons. No thanks; I'd feel more comfortable letting Cole play top-pairing minutes.
This post shows how ignorant some posters are when it comes to Bouwmeester.

Having a bad contract does not mean Bouwmeester is a bad player. He is easily a top 4 defender. Cole is barely a bottom pairing D at this point.

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