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Leafs trade Schenn for JVR (Part II)

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06-27-2012, 11:39 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Aplayaz2000 View Post
that's good

but only if you believe JVR can't improve at that age
JVR can improve. I certainly hope he does otherwise this trade will be an absolute disaster. But Schenn can improve too.

Common sense says to put your money on the guy who's going to the better team.

Remember Schenn's finally going to a team that doesn't have an idiot coach who insists he skate around with two hands glued to his stick all game.

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06-27-2012, 11:40 AM
  #127
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Like I said. He scores most of his goals off the rush or in the high slot.


I count two goals off the rush and zero from the high slot.

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06-27-2012, 11:43 AM
  #128
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And the myth perpetuates.....
I honestly feel like you've never watched him play based on your comments, and yet you complain about us buying into a "myth"?

There's a vid of all 24 points he scored last year, as well as a vid highlighting his 7 goals in 11 games. I would hesitate to say even 25% of his goals/assists came off the rush.

The only point I cede to you is he doesn't hit that much. This still has very little bearing on the makings of a power forward though imo.

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06-27-2012, 11:48 AM
  #129
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And the myth perpetuates.....
Myth? It's not a myth... I'm not sure what to say.

I'd suggest to watch more hockey outside of the Leafs but I'm sure you'll say that you do... Right.

What ever makes you feel better in your own world I suppose?

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06-27-2012, 11:52 AM
  #130
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"[QUOTE=Leaf Army;51598359]This is a terrible trade and the mindset behind the trade is a big reason why the Leafs are and will remain a mediocre team.

Think about how stupid this is. The Flyers are a better team then us. So what do we do? We take one of their third line players and make him a first or second line player on our team.


What do we get? A big, soft winger who might score 20 or 25 goals. Big deal. Players like Luke Schenn, who could be a top pairing shutdown defenceman, are much more rare then potential 30 goal one dimensional wingers.
"



Excellent post. Fans of the Leafs need to realize Luke Schenn's deficiencies were magnified exponentially , because the Leaf's goalies are not very good.

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06-27-2012, 11:52 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Mr Mojo Declinin View Post


I count two goals off the rush and zero from the high slot.
I admit there's a couple of good ones in there of him battling in front of the net. I certainly hope he does that more in the future.

But most of those plays look like the kinds goals Kessel scores to be honest.

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06-27-2012, 11:52 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by SprDaVE View Post
Myth? It's not a myth... I'm not sure what to say.

I'd suggest to watch more hockey outside of the Leafs but I'm sure you'll say that you do... Right.

What ever makes you feel better in your own world I suppose?
If he thinks Schenn is a future top-pairing defenseman, I'm not sure he's been watching many Leafs games either.

At his best he's a completely replaceable second-pairing defenseman, at his worst he's Mike Komisarek. Except worse.

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06-27-2012, 11:54 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army View Post
This is a terrible trade and the mindset behind the trade is a big reason why the Leafs are and will remain a mediocre team.

Think about how stupid this is. The Flyers are a better team then us. So what do we do? We take one of their third line players and make him a first or second line player on our team.

End result? The Flyers are still a better team then us.

So the Flyers are still the better team but in the process we give them Luke Schenn.
That's a very counter intuitive argument. You could make the argument that we, an inferior team, gave the Flyers a defenseman who is supposed to help them, but how is a defenseman who wasn't contributing on a horrible defensive team supposed to help a contender?

End result, the Flyers just put their hopes in someone who completely sucks.

The fact is both players are young and have potential to grow. JVR has more tools and fills a hole and can grow into a more useful player than Schenn was for us when he was here, and is likely to become for Philadelphia.

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Originally Posted by Leaf Army View Post

Now we can watch the Schenn brothers unite and haunt us for years to come. The Leafs are already scared crapless when we play the Flyers, now we just made it worse. Why is Brian Burke doing the Flyers favours?

What do we get? A big, soft winger who might score 20 or 25 goals. Big deal. Players like Luke Schenn, who could be a top pairing shutdown defenceman, are much more rare then potential 30 goal one dimensional wingers.
You can spin this any way you want. We got a winger with speed to burn and when we play Philadelphia we'll have one more defenseman to play against who can't keep up.

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This myth that Van Riemsdyk is a power forward has to stop. He's big. That's it. He doesn't hit, he doesn't block shots, he doesn't grind, he doesn't fight, he intimidates nobody, he doesn't take the puck to the hard areas of the ice. He scores most of his goals off the rush. Not a power forward. Period. He's one of the softer forwards in the league.
JVR scores a lot of garbage goals camped out in front of the crease and has a deadly one shot goal scoring capability. He has a big wingspan and can protect and lug the puck in a way a lot of our smaller guys can't. We didn't have a JVR dimension so he's augmented the offense by giving us a new look, even if he isn't Eric Lindros.

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Getting Van Riemsdyk reminds me of when we acquired Versteeg. Coming here with huge expectations. But when people realize he's just another lazy, 40 or 50 point forward he's going to be crapped on like crazy. And just like Versteeg, we took a third liner from a good team and tried to make him a top liner on our team. How are we going to become a top team with that kind of strategy?

Meanwhile, once again, the Flyers are going to be a better team than us. They won't miss Van Riemsdyk. He contributed nothing last year. But they'll be enjoying the Schenn brothers for years to come. And will have us to thank.

Meanwhile Van Riemsdyk will fizzle out for us once people realize he's just not that good.

It's sad that as a franchise we have got to the point where we think this is a good deal for us. Really sad.
Wait, what do we miss of Luke Schenn? Lame stick checks and screening the goalie? Handling the puck like a grenade in high pressure situations? Trying, and failing to fight? Getting stripped of the puck at the blueline and having his slow release and knock kneed skating exploited? Lame checks on the half wall that don't stop the cycle?

And the Schenn Brothers? Who cares?

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06-27-2012, 11:54 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army View Post
I admit there's a couple of good ones in there of him battling in front of the net. I certainly hope he does that more in the future.

But most of those plays look like the kinds goals Kessel scores to be honest.
So having two Kessel-like weapons is a problem?

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06-27-2012, 12:09 PM
  #135
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So having two Kessel-like weapons is a problem?
of course

a player who can point per game is always bad
i rather have a defensemen...

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06-27-2012, 12:35 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army View Post
This is a terrible trade and the mindset behind the trade is a big reason why the Leafs are and will remain a mediocre team.

Think about how stupid this is. The Flyers are a better team then us. So what do we do? We take one of their third line players and make him a first or second line player on our team.

End result? The Flyers are still a better team then us.

So the Flyers are still the better team but in the process we give them Luke Schenn.

Now we can watch the Schenn brothers unite and haunt us for years to come. The Leafs are already scared crapless when we play the Flyers, now we just made it worse. Why is Brian Burke doing the Flyers favours?

What do we get? A big, soft winger who might score 20 or 25 goals. Big deal. Players like Luke Schenn, who could be a top pairing shutdown defenceman, are much more rare then potential 30 goal one dimensional wingers.

This myth that Van Riemsdyk is a power forward has to stop. He's big. That's it. He doesn't hit, he doesn't block shots, he doesn't grind, he doesn't fight, he intimidates nobody, he doesn't take the puck to the hard areas of the ice. He scores most of his goals off the rush. Not a power forward. Period. He's one of the softer forwards in the league.

Getting Van Riemsdyk reminds me of when we acquired Versteeg. Coming here with huge expectations. But when people realize he's just another lazy, 40 or 50 point forward he's going to be crapped on like crazy. And just like Versteeg, we took a third liner from a good team and tried to make him a top liner on our team. How are we going to become a top team with that kind of strategy?

Meanwhile, once again, the Flyers are going to be a better team than us. They won't miss Van Riemsdyk. He contributed nothing last year. But they'll be enjoying the Schenn brothers for years to come. And will have us to thank.

Meanwhile Van Riemsdyk will fizzle out for us once people realize he's just not that good.

It's sad that as a franchise we have got to the point where we think this is a good deal for us. Really sad.
After Hartnell and Jagr, all 4 of JVR, Voracek, Read, and Simmonds were pretty comparable as the wingers on the 2nd and 3rd lines for Philly. That gave them one of the deepest sets of wingers in the league.

It'll be similar here in Toronto....after Kessel and Lupul, all 4/5 of JVR, Kulemin, MacA, and Kadri/Frattin will be battling it out for the 4 wing spots on the 2nd and 3rd lines. This will also give the Leafs one of the deepest sets of wingers in the league.


Luke Schenn, meanwhile, was nowhere near toronto's top-4 last year (all of Phaneuf, Gunnar, Gardiner, Liles averaging over 21:30 per game), and was in a four way battle to keep a spot on the 3rd pair (Komi 45gms/16:39, Franson 57gms/16:11, Aulie 17gms/16:07, Schenn 79gms/16:02).

It'll be similar there in Philly....after the top-4 of Carle, Coburn, Timonen, Meszaros, .....Schenn will be in a battle with the likes of Grossman, Gustafsson, Lilja trying to keep a spot on their 3rd pair.



It's a trade of a quality 2nd/3rd line winger for a borderline 3rd pair defenseman.

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06-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #137
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"It's a trade of a quality 2nd/3rd line winger for a borderline 3rd pair defenseman.[/QUOTE]"

Come on. You are viewing this from the POV of a Leaf's fan, and not seeing the bigger picture. Your evaluation of Schenn is based on his play in front of poor goalies. Comparison of ice-time under such circumstance is invalid. Schenn will be a top shut-down defense man, given a real goalie behind him. Unfortunately for him, Philly lacks that goalie too.

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06-27-2012, 12:45 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
After Hartnell and Jagr, all 4 of JVR, Voracek, Read, and Simmonds were pretty comparable as the wingers on the 2nd and 3rd lines for Philly. That gave them one of the deepest sets of wingers in the league.

It'll be similar here in Toronto....after Kessel and Lupul, all 4/5 of JVR, Kulemin, MacA, and Kadri/Frattin will be battling it out for the 4 wing spots on the 2nd and 3rd lines. This will also give the Leafs one of the deepest sets of wingers in the league.


Luke Schenn, meanwhile, was nowhere near toronto's top-4 last year (all of Phaneuf, Gunnar, Gardiner, Liles averaging over 21:30 per game), and was in a four way battle to keep a spot on the 3rd pair (Komi 45gms/16:39, Franson 57gms/16:11, Aulie 17gms/16:07, Schenn 79gms/16:02).

It'll be similar there in Philly....after the top-4 of Carle, Coburn, Timonen, Meszaros, .....Schenn will be in a battle with the likes of Grossman, Gustafsson, Lilja trying to keep a spot on their 3rd pair.



It's a trade of a quality 2nd/3rd line winger for a borderline 3rd pair defenseman.
No, no it won't

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06-27-2012, 12:46 PM
  #139
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all the leafs defensemen played in front of the same goalies, in the same system.

Schenn was probably the worst of the 8 leafs dmen who played last year.

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06-27-2012, 12:52 PM
  #140
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Your evaluation of Schenn is based on his play in front of poor goalies.
Gunnarsson, Phaneuf and Liles played just fine in front of the same poor goalies, for longer amounts of time each game and against tougher competition. What's Schenn's excuse?

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06-27-2012, 12:58 PM
  #141
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No, no it won't
not sure, but I doubt you'll find many other teams that can better this group's production on the wings, or their pure talent level, either, remembering that 4 of them are top-10 picks:

Last 2yrs:

1) P.Kessel (24): 164gms, 67gls, 146pts (82gms, 34gls, 73pts)
2) J.Lupul (29): 120gms, 39gls, 98pts (82gms, 27gls, 67pts)

3) C.MacA (27): 155gms, 41gls, 105pts (82gms, 22gls, 56pts)
4) N.Kuly (26): 152gms, 37gls, 85pts (82gms, 20gls, 46pts)

5) J.VanRk (23): 118gms, 32gls, 64pts (82gms, 22gls, 45pts)
6) N.Kadri (21): 50gms, 8gls, 19pts (82gms, 13gls, 31pts)

X) M.Frattin (24): 57gms, 8gls, 15pts (82gms, 12gls, 22pts)
X) M.Brown (27): 100gms, 5gls, 12pts (82gms, 4gls, 10pts)
X) M.Lombardi (30): 64gms, 8gls, 18pts (82gms, 10gls, 23pts)
X) C.Armstrong (29): 79gms, 9gls, 26pts (82gms, 9gls, 27pts)

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06-27-2012, 01:06 PM
  #142
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Excellent post. Fans of the Leafs need to realize Luke Schenn's deficiencies were magnified exponentially , because the Leaf's goalies are not very good.
That makes no sense, making more basic defensive mistakes than should be expected of a 4th year defenceman has nothing to do with goaltenders.

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06-27-2012, 01:34 PM
  #143
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That makes no sense, making more basic defensive mistakes than should be expected of a 4th year defenceman has nothing to do with goaltenders.
Are you defending the Leaf's goalies? That 4th. year defense man is 22. His most obvious deficiency is quick feet. His combination of age and playing his entire career in front of poor goalies makes that deficiency stand out. The other players you mentioned are either much more experienced or have quicker feet. Also, many objective viewers would consider them to have been playing poorly too. It all stems from poor goaltending. Even Dion Phaneuff looks slow footed (and a pylon) at times. He is a fabulous skater! It's the goaltending.

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06-27-2012, 03:01 PM
  #144
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Komi 29yrs old, 9yrs exp.
Liles 31yrs old, 8yrs exp.
Phaneuf 26yrs old, 7yrs exp.
Schenn 22yrs old, 4yrs exp.
Gunnarsson 25yrs old, 3yrs exp.
Franson 24yrs old, 3yrs exp.
Aulie 22yrs old, 2yrs exp.
Gardiner 21yrs old, 1yrs exp.

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06-27-2012, 03:10 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Are you defending the Leaf's goalies? That 4th. year defense man is 22. His most obvious deficiency is quick feet. His combination of age and playing his entire career in front of poor goalies makes that deficiency stand out. The other players you mentioned are either much more experienced or have quicker feet. Also, many objective viewers would consider them to have been playing poorly too. It all stems from poor goaltending. Even Dion Phaneuff looks slow footed (and a pylon) at times. He is a fabulous skater! It's the goaltending.
You just proved his point.

What he's saying is correct - Schenn's flaws are not related to the quality of goaltending.

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06-27-2012, 03:19 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Mr Mojo Declinin View Post


I count two goals off the rush and zero from the high slot.
Man, plays like at 5:30 make me very happy. A winger not getting knocked off the puck and taking it to the net!

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06-27-2012, 03:25 PM
  #147
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Come on. You are viewing this from the POV of a Leaf's fan, and not seeing the bigger picture. Your evaluation of Schenn is based on his play in front of poor goalies. Comparison of ice-time under such circumstance is invalid. Schenn will be a top shut-down defense man, given a real goalie behind him. Unfortunately for him, Philly lacks that goalie too.
So glad we could have a Canucks fan come on our boards and tell us how good the player we've been watching for 4 years actually is. You're providing an invaluable service.

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06-27-2012, 03:32 PM
  #148
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Are you defending the Leaf's goalies? That 4th. year defense man is 22. His most obvious deficiency is quick feet. His combination of age and playing his entire career in front of poor goalies makes that deficiency stand out. The other players you mentioned are either much more experienced or have quicker feet. Also, many objective viewers would consider them to have been playing poorly too. It all stems from poor goaltending. Even Dion Phaneuff looks slow footed (and a pylon) at times. He is a fabulous skater! It's the goaltending.
I can tell the difference between a goal scored after a defenceman has kept the opposing forward away from having a good opportunity and one where the defenceman is not in a good position.

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06-27-2012, 03:45 PM
  #149
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You just proved his point.

What he's saying is correct - Schenn's flaws are not related to the quality of goaltending.
Actually, no. Slow feet is by no means an insurmountable deficiency in a defense man. (Chara and Weber do not have quick feet.) In fact, when Chara was younger (and playing in front of poor goaltending) he was criticized for his lack of mobility, much like Schenn is now. It's amazing how much Chara improved his foot speed since playing in front of better goaltending. If a real #1 goalie had been in Toronto during Schenn's development, Schenn would be considered irreplaceable. The Leafs will continue to struggle with "apparent" poor defense men until the goaltending is upgraded.

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06-27-2012, 03:49 PM
  #150
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I can tell the difference between a goal scored after a defenceman has kept the opposing forward away from having a good opportunity and one where the defenceman is not in a good position.
This is my point exactly. May I ask why you believe these Leaf's defense men (ex. in Schenn's case) appear out of position? Could it be, because these defense men have no confidence in their goalies stopping shots from even poor scoring areas, and thus move to spaces they should not?

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