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Old
06-24-2012, 08:09 PM
  #26
Chazz Reinhold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Kessel has played both positions in his career.

The fact remains, the Kessel trade was not nearly as bad as people on this site make it out to be. If Hamilton develops into a good d-man it will not be a good trade for the Leafs, but lets not overreact here, Kessel is a point per game player with some of the best hands in the league.
He may have moonlighted as a center at some points in his career, but the fact remains that he is not a bonafide #1 NHL center. He never will be. Kessel is a winger.

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06-24-2012, 08:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
They could've gotten 2 of those 4 things had they not made the Kessel deal.
Exactly, or traded Rask for Raycroft.

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06-24-2012, 09:09 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
Burke will probably be canned this season or next, and the Kessel trade will be pointed at as his primary downfall. Just a stupid, stupid trade to make when an obvious rebuild was in order.
If he'd have followed Lombardi's model after he was hired, the Leafs would be in a much better position. Instead, by his own admission Burke said he didnt have the time to do a rebuild and look at the leafs now. They are no closer to winning a championship than Columbus.

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06-24-2012, 09:13 PM
  #29
AKAY47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Kessel has played both positions in his career.

The fact remains, the Kessel trade was not nearly as bad as people on this site make it out to be. If Hamilton develops into a good d-man it will not be a good trade for the Leafs, but lets not overreact here, Kessel is a point per game player with some of the best hands in the league.
I disagree 100%. They gave up more for Kessel than what they would have given up if they signed him to an offer sheet. Maybe Boston would've matched it or something. Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton and Jared Knight (who dropped to the 2nd round but could've easily been a first rounder) could've all been major pieces for the Leafs in their prospect pool. Tyler Seguin is a legit 1st line center (something their missing and we all know how much more important centers are than wingers). Brian Burke tried to speed the process, but really what he did was just put the Leafs back a couple years. Horrible management

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06-24-2012, 09:23 PM
  #30
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The thing about the Kessel trade is that when you move 2 firsts for a player, your team should be in a position where you know you'll drafting in the bottom part of the draft, not the top.

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06-24-2012, 09:28 PM
  #31
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EDM is the interesting case in my opinion. They are doing it completely opposite. It will be interesting to see where they are in 4-5 years.

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06-24-2012, 09:38 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid Sexy Flanders View Post
EDM is the interesting case in my opinion. They are doing it completely opposite. It will be interesting to see where they are in 4-5 years.
They have some great assets to trade though, much better than Toronto. Edmonton will move some forwards for defense.

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06-24-2012, 09:38 PM
  #33
Ziggy Stardust
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And Edmonton has the assets to acquire whatever it is that they need (defense & goaltending). I figure they will eventually move some of those forwards to make those upgrades. That is if Steve Tambellini has any common sense.

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06-24-2012, 09:43 PM
  #34
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But say they trade Eberle for a D-man and Hall for a goalie. Then their top 6 is pretty thin.
Sydor- you're right, they are better off than TOR.

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06-24-2012, 09:49 PM
  #35
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EDM will be fine. They took the BPA each of the past four years, it just happened that each guy was a forward.

When you draft for organizational need instead of BPA you end up with a guy like Colten Teubert in the first round.

EDM is a couple of years away, look for them to be better this season and drafting in the 6-8 range which gives them more flexibility to trade up or down to get that d-man or goaltender, a lot harder to do that from the #1 spot.

btw, speaking of the Oilers. Looks like old man $myth has again overplayed his hand. Whined to go back to EDM because he thought they would pay him, now with Yakupov on board his role has been completely taken. I really hope he ends up in the Pacific division, preferably in Anaheim. Although I hear the schools in Columbus and South Florida are excellent.


Last edited by Herby: 06-24-2012 at 09:54 PM.
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Old
06-24-2012, 09:50 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid Sexy Flanders View Post
But say they trade Eberle for a D-man and Hall for a goalie. Then their top 6 is pretty thin.
Sydor- you're right, they are better off than TOR.
Clearly they're not trading any of those players, but they could move Ales Hemsky or Sam Gagner or Magnus Paajarvi or Linus Omark and acquire a dman or goalie.

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06-24-2012, 09:53 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Clearly they're not trading any of those players, but they could move Ales Hemsky or Sam Gagner or Magnus Paajarvi or Linus Omark and acquire a dman or goalie.
Exactly, plus they can move some #1 picks to sweeten the deal. Edmonton does need to start making these moves before their ELCs expire. Starting all of their contracts at 18 or 19 is going to bite them in the ass unless the new CBA moves the UFA age back.

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06-24-2012, 09:59 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Clearly they're not trading any of those players, but they could move Ales Hemsky or Sam Gagner or Magnus Paajarvi or Linus Omark and acquire a dman or goalie.
They won't getting much back if they trade those players now. I'm guessing they will wait till they have some worth.

Hemsky will be the only one with a solid return. But, his health is uh questionable to say the least.

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06-24-2012, 10:02 PM
  #39
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MPS could still bring a solid return. Would love to see him on the Kings. But the Kings can't move Amart or Voynov and EDM isn't going to move him in a deal for Hickey or Muzzin.

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06-24-2012, 10:03 PM
  #40
Stupid Sexy Flanders
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Clearly they're not trading any of those players, but they could move Ales Hemsky or Sam Gagner or Magnus Paajarvi or Linus Omark and acquire a dman or goalie.
Oh I agree but they arent getting a Doughty for Hemsky/Gagner so that's why it will be interesting where they end up in 4 yrs.

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Old
06-24-2012, 10:05 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shellz View Post
They won't getting much back if they trade those players now. I'm guessing they will wait till they have some worth.

Hemsky will be the only one with a solid return. But, his health is uh questionable to say the least.
Rangers got a pretty good defenseman for Gomez and his horrible contract. Edmonton will want to target young defensemen with some upside. You never know what a GM is willing to give up for vets, especially at the deadline.

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06-24-2012, 10:14 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Rangers got a pretty good defenseman for Gomez and his horrible contract. Edmonton will want to target young defensemen with some upside. You never know what a GM is willing to give up for vets, especially at the deadline.
Very true. Its going to be interesting to see what they do.

I actually like MPS, but last season he left a lot to be desired. Hopefully he comes back stronger.

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Old
06-24-2012, 10:27 PM
  #43
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With Pittsburgh in need of some wingers and with the Oilers in need of D, could see them swinging a trade involving Despres for Paajarvi.

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06-24-2012, 10:47 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Kessel has played both positions in his career.

The fact remains, the Kessel trade was not nearly as bad as people on this site make it out to be. If Hamilton develops into a good d-man it will not be a good trade for the Leafs, but lets not overreact here, Kessel is a point per game player with some of the best hands in the league.
Kessel is an elite winger. I'm not sure if he played a minute at center all season long. Mostly played with Bozak (and obviously with Lupul on the other side until Lups got hurt).

Lupul is close to elite. He was downright excellent this year and him going down eliminated whatever slim chance they had at grabbing a low playoff spot. Grabovski is very good, a good #2. The rest of their forwards are a mixed bag. Kulemin is good defensively but not able to be relied on for more. Bozak is...okay. Connolly is good some nights and invisible most nights. Kadri showed some high end talent and then looked completely overwhelmed. They don't have any good role players. The last part is probably Burke's biggest failure. The players he buys are useless 'role' players that aren't any good at whatever role they're assigned. This is how he ends up with awful Colby Armstrong and how he ends up whining about Colton Orr having to be sent down. Burke is pretty good at seeing high end talent, even if it isn't apparent in a player yet. He's awful at everything else.

The trade was still...just a bad idea. Bad asset management and bad timing to make that deal. Kessel is a great player, better than I ever expected him to be in TOR. It still just wasn't a very bright trade. Overpaid considerably, given what high first round picks can go for and the bevy of deficiencies they had at the time.

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Old
06-24-2012, 11:33 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
Frankly, I think it's impossible to rebuild in Toronto.
It's all how you sell it.

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Old
06-25-2012, 12:24 AM
  #46
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The pieces they currently have do not fit.

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Old
06-25-2012, 12:28 AM
  #47
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they want to be more like the kings. bernier and stoll for kessel.

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Old
06-25-2012, 01:34 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
@Johnjm.

Everyone has some luck.
Neidermeyer (UFA signing that fell into his lap)
Selenne (UFA signing that fell into his lap)
Federov (Tradable Asset)
Getzlaf
Perry
Penner
McDonald
Bryzgalov
Giguere
Pahlsson
Smid (Another great tradable asset used to get Pronger)
Lupul (Tradable asset also used to get Pronger)

+ The 2nd overall pick in the 2005 draft.

*Anaheim was the deepest franchise in the league in 2006 according to HF.


^Burke inherited all that. Talk about walking into the perfect situation. Shero is the only GM I can think of that's ever gotten luckier. BB made some great acquisitions (Beauchamin, Marchant, Kunitz, Pronger, O'Donnell) that got the team over the top, but Murray is the one that built that franchise (he's doing it again in Ottawa).

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Old
06-25-2012, 01:37 AM
  #49
Jason Lewis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
They could've gotten 2 of those 4 things had they not made the Kessel deal.
And I laugh every day about it. Smartest GM in hockey my ass.

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Old
06-25-2012, 04:18 AM
  #50
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Some of the revisionist history and back patting in this thread is comical. If Burke "lucked" into his Cup win in Anaheim, so did Lombardi.

Ask yourselves this: does the shrewd Lombardi we saw operate for years under a frustratingly rigid philosophy make that Carter trade if the Kings were in a better position? No way. The Carter trade was a reactionary move from a desperate GM. Nothing more. Daryl Sutter had sparked the team to a bunch of OT/SO losses, followed by another big losing streak. This all culminated in the Carter trade, not the machinations of a mastermind GM waiting for the perfect trade.

The stars aligned for the team this season. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Lombardi was by no means perfect. Give him credit for managing his cap well enough to take on a player like Carter at the right time. But also consider that losing out on Drury, Gaborik, Hossa, Kovalchuk, and Richards turned out to be just as "lucky" as anything Burke did.

The Kessel trade will be debated for decades. At this point, Seguin and Hamilton are nowhere near the caliber of player as Phil Kessel. Burke has made some head scratching decisions, sure, and I am by no means a fan of any former Duck. But let's try to keep some perspective when vilifying Burke and praising Deano.

If anything, let's criticize Burke for his draft this year. He should have drafted one of the bluechip centers still available, not Reilly. But flipping Luke Schenn for JVR is looking terribly lopsided in Toronto's favor right now. JVR can also play center, and not just as a fill in. If Burke can finalize a deal for Luongo then things will get pretty interesting in Leaf Nation next season. They still lack a true number one two way defenseman, but Reilly could eventually become that guy.

Anyway, meandering semi-rant aside, yes, Toronto doesn't have players of Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick's caliber. But they're not in a terrible position. Things can definitely turn around under Burke's watch, especially with Carlye in the mix now teaching those guys how to play defense.

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