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The Offseason Thread Part X: Bobby, we're better than Philly!

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Old
06-26-2012, 10:20 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
No, your saying he doesn't fit a first line role. Outside of his age, you haven't really provided how he doesn't fit as a power forward on the first line.

You think he will dramatically decline(or that he might), and I say you take that risk. I don't feel he will decline that much, and he can effectively continue that role from what I saw last year.
Well, for one thing, he hasn't put up the kind of numbers you expect out of a first line power forward since 08-09, mainly due to his shooting percentage dropping a couple of points. Sting doesn't really care what kind of numbers he puts up, but many people will. But what does it matter to me if he does or doesn't? I'm not expecting him to play there and what I'm saying is expecting him to fit a first line role on this team is setting yourself (or maybe not you, but some of the less rational people on these boards) up for being disappointed in the guy. I think he'd be a great pickup, but for our top-9, not necessarily for our first line.

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06-26-2012, 10:23 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
The fact that we had a rookie role player called up mid-season filling that role in the playoffs tells you everything you need to know about the LW needs of the team.

There is a bigger issue with the RW than LW on the depth chart.

We have a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th line LW. We may only have a 1st and a 2nd line RW, depending on what happens with Dubinsky. If they sign a veteran like Smyth or Doan, and keep Dubinsky, Anisimov probably slots in as the 3rd RW. The point is that the 1st line LW is a much bigger hole than 3rd or 4th RW, and harder to fill. And yes, I disagree. I don't believe we have someone to fill that 1st line LW NEXT season on the roster today. Not if we plan on doing better than we did this season, anyway. .
The fact is that we did call him (Hagelin) up and he will be on the team next year, so what's your point? I'm not claiming which of the three LWs we have is going to fit on that line next season. I am claiming that one of the three will. Last year, at the beginning of the season, we had Wolski, Dubinsky and Fedontenko as our three LWs. Next year, we will have Kreider, Dubinsky and Hagelin filling those spots. That's already a major upgrade.

Oh, and Anisimov playing wing was a big part of what I felt was a regression for him last season. I don't want to see it again.

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06-26-2012, 10:24 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
His production offensively isn't the big draw to playing him on the first line. Frankly, his numbers could go down 10-15 points, and it wouldn't bother me. I want him there because I know he's going to get something respectable, but more importantly, his style of play will help the other two players on his line play their game.

He can't be a better fit on another line because there is no better fit on that line. There are basically only three possible choices for that 1st line LW spot if Doan were to sign with the team: Doan, Dubinsky, Kreider. Who the heck knows what you're going to get from Dubinsky, and I just think it would make a lot more sense for a number of reasons to play Kreider with Stepan.

If Dubinsky tears it up in camp, fine, give him a shot there. I just can't see any realistic scenario where, if they're both options, Dubinsky shows him self to be a better option for Richards and Gaborik than Doan.

If we don't get Doan, and can't trade for Ryan or don't trade for Nash, I'd be shocked if we didn't end up with Smyth for the same role. I just think Doan is better than Smyth.

I agree with a lot of the implications of this post. The team has a lot of potential question marks as it is currently constructed. Doan's flexibility would allow the team to plug him where he's needed--something you won't get from Ryan, Nash, Jagr, etc.

Uncertainty--was Hagelin overpowered due to fatigue or style? If fatigue, keep him on that top line and slot Doan with Step and Kreider. (For the record, I think Hagelin's change in play in the playoffs was a direct result of the injury to Alfredsson. Even during the rest of that game, you could see that Hags was playing nervous, and it continued after the suspension. In his first ever major penalty, he took out his childhood hero by accident, and I think he was a little scared to go all out again. Just my opinion).

Uncertainty--Was last year an aberration for Dubi or the new norm. If aberration, then Dubi may be the answer on that top line (hell, it might be Dubi Richards Doan until Gaborik comes back). If not, Doan is there to fill in.

Regardless of the uncertainty, Doan offers a potential solution, AND he already plays the Rangers' style (hell, I think Doan was the model for the Rangers style in a lot of ways).

When everybody is healthy, we could see something like this:

1st line: Hagelin/Dubinsky Richards Gaborik
2nd line: Kreider Stepan Doan
other 2nd line: Dubi/Hagelin Anisimov Callahan
4th line: Rupp Boyle XXX

The first is a clear cut first line, and having two lines capable of playing 2nd line minutes makes them push each other. Torts will give the more deserving line those minutes on a game by game basis.

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of Doan on this team.


Last edited by smoneil: 06-26-2012 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Added a bit about Hagelin's postseason play.
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06-26-2012, 10:24 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Well, for one thing, he hasn't put up the kind of numbers you expect out of a first line power forward since 08-09, mainly due to his shooting percentage dropping a couple of points. Sting doesn't really care what kind of numbers he puts up, but many people will. But what does it matter to me if he does or doesn't? I'm not expecting him to play there and what I'm saying is expecting him to fit a first line role on this team is setting yourself (or maybe not you, but some of the less rational people on these boards) up for being disappointed in the guy. I think he'd be a great pickup, but for our top-9, not necessarily for our first line.


I agree. Doan would be great on the 2nd or 3rd line but he is no 1st line player. Give Doan a spot on the 2nd or 3rd line with some PP time and that's it, he isn't 1st line material and neither is any other players we except Richards and Gaborik, but we have players who fit the 1st line alot better than Doan does/can/will.

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06-26-2012, 10:28 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The fact is that we did call him (Hagelin) up and he will be on the team next year, so what's your point? I'm not claiming which of the three LWs we have is going to fit on that line next season. I am claiming that one of the three will.
My point is the team would be a lot better off with Hagelin on the third line for the reasons I already outline earlier.

Quote:
Oh, and Anisimov playing wing was a big part of what I felt was a regression for him last season. I don't want to see it again.
I agree. I also prefer him at center, but if he and Dubinsky are both on the team, and so is Doan, then I am relatively certain Doan would be on the first line, and Dubinsky would be playing on the third with Anisimov. Maybe you can keep Anisimov as the center but have Dubinsky take draws. Or maybe Dubinsky gets traded. There are a lot of variables, most of which will be resolved one way or another based on how they address the issue of 1st line LW.

I think it's a much bigger risk to assume that someone on the roster today will be the best option for that job than it is to assume that Doan will be a better option than any one on the roster.

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06-26-2012, 10:28 PM
  #881
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Also-- I see a lot of people putting Callahan on Stepan's wing. Why? Stepan has never really meshed well with either Cally OR Dubi. He just plays a totally different style than those two. Obviously, things can change, but I think part of the reason Stepan looked so much better with both Gaborik and Kreider was that Step is a precision passer and those guys are finishers. Cally and Dubi are more "slam in the rebound" players, and a finesse guy like Stepan isn't really necessary or effective with them.

I like the idea of having Doan on the RW of Step and Kreider. Doan is a better finisher than Cally or Dubi, and he offers a veteran physical presence on that line (because you know that teams will try to intimidate the two 21 year olds).

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06-26-2012, 10:31 PM
  #882
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Callahan brings alot to the table, so why not put him on the 2nd line? It's not like we have any better who can play on the 2nd line unless we get Doan. Dubinsky-Stepan-Doan is what i would like to see unless Dubinsky is moved back to center, then i would like to see Hagelin-Stepan-Doan.

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06-26-2012, 10:32 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I think it's a much bigger risk to assume that someone on the roster today will be the best option for that job than it is to assume that Doan will be a better option than any one on the roster.
Yeah, but the difference is that even at this point in the early summer, in the hypothetical situation... I don't care who plays on that first line. If it's Doan, it's Doan. Unless we're talking about Brian Boyle, Ruslan Fedotenko or Brandon Prust, I completely trust our coach to make the decisions that are right for the team in terms of playing time. He's earned that from me over the last two years. I just don't think you bring in a guy like Doan to this team and say "this is to improve our first line." I think you do it and say "this is to improve our team, wherever he fits." In the end, we're bringing in the same guy with the same overall goal in mind (improving the team) and this discussion is starting to get tiresome.

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06-26-2012, 10:33 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
Callahan brings alot to the table, so why not put him on the 2nd line? It's not like we have any better who can play on the 2nd line unless we get Doan. Dubinsky-Stepan-Doan is what i would like to see unless Dubinsky is moved back to center, then i would like to see Hagelin-Stepan-Doan.
The way I look at it, it's not going to matter 2nd line vs 3rd line when everyone is healthy. We're going to have a top-3/middle-6/bottom-3 situation going.

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06-26-2012, 10:36 PM
  #885
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The way I look at it, it's not going to matter 2nd line vs 3rd line when everyone is healthy. We're going to have a top-3/middle-6/bottom-3 situation going.



It should matter on the PP. Torts shouldn't be throwing Boyle and Rupp out there on the PP. Why not have 2 set PP lines for once instead of always changing it on the fly? One of the things i get annoyed with is the line juggling, just set 4 lines and play them, Torts never leaves a line alone.

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06-26-2012, 10:37 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
Callahan brings alot to the table, so why not put him on the 2nd line? It's not like we have any better who can play on the 2nd line unless we get Doan. Dubinsky-Stepan-Doan is what i would like to see unless Dubinsky is moved back to center, then i would like to see Hagelin-Stepan-Doan.
I think the issue is in viewing it as a "3rd line." Most people agree that they want to keep Richards and Gaborik together. The chemistry with Kreider and Stepan was undeniable in the post-season.

That gives you the starting points for two lines, and you plug in available pieces as you go. Cally has never played particularly well with Stepan, so he's not the best fit for that RW. He HAS played well with Dubi and Anisimov.

Again, it's more like having two second lines than an outright 2nd and 3rd. Considering this team had a first, a second, and two fourth lines for most of last season, I welcome the change, haha.

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06-26-2012, 10:40 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
It should matter on the PP. Torts shouldn't be throwing Boyle and Rupp out there on the PP. Why not have 2 set PP lines for once instead of always changing it on the fly? One of the things i get annoyed with is the line juggling, just set 4 lines and play them, Torts never leaves a line alone.
2nd/3rd distinctions don't play a role on the PP. A lot of Tortorella's juggling on the powerplay was due to the fact that it was abysmal for most of the season last year. There's an argument to be made that it might have gotten better if he just let them get accustomed to each other over time. However, it think it was more psychological than anything else by the time we got to December. Either way, that's a discussion for another place and time.

As long as the Rangers have the depth to not have Brian Boyle out on the ice with 1:30 left to go in a tie game or a game where we're down by one, I'll be happy.

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06-26-2012, 10:41 PM
  #888
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I don't have a problem with playing Callahan on the third line with Dubinsky and Anisimov (although I also have no problem playing him on the second line; he doesn't need chemistry to be effective or to help his linemates) and Doan on the second line with Stepan and Kreider. It's fantastic...except for the fact that it leaves Hagelin as the first line LW.

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06-26-2012, 10:45 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I don't have a problem with playing Callahan on the third line with Dubinsky and Anisimov (although I also have no problem playing him on the second line; he doesn't need chemistry to be effective or to help his linemates) and Doan on the second line with Stepan and Kreider. It's fantastic...except for the fact that it leaves Hagelin as the first line LW.
Yeah, but if Richards scores at an 90-point rate and Gaborik scores and a 40-goal rate like they did in March with Hagelin on the line, than I think Carl's fine there, don't you?

(I'm pretty sure it won't happen that way, but one never knows, right? You're skeptical about Hagelin's ability to play there for a whole year. I'm skeptical about many other things. It's all good)

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06-26-2012, 10:45 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
2nd/3rd distinctions don't play a role on the PP. A lot of Tortorella's juggling on the powerplay was due to the fact that it was abysmal for most of the season last year. There's an argument to be made that it might have gotten better if he just let them get accustomed to each other over time. However, it think it was more psychological than anything else by the time we got to December. Either way, that's a discussion for another place and time.

As long as the Rangers have the depth to not have Brian Boyle out on the ice with 1:30 left to go in a tie game or a game where we're down by one, I'll be happy.


That's exactly my argument. If he left it alone it might have improved, i doubt it but sending Prust and Boyle out on the PP didn't come close to solving anything. All we need is a top 6 guy so we can leave Boyle, Rupp, Feds if he comes back and any other 3rd or 4th line we have on the 3rd and 4th lines. Guys like Fedotenko can't be expected to do good on a line with Richards and Gaborik and i seen Boyle kill breakouts too many times, it has to end. Hopefully Boyle stays on the 4th line and i won't have to see him kill chances.

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06-26-2012, 10:48 PM
  #891
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Random thing to remember about Doan (at least in the current CBA).

He'd be a 35+ contract, which means that even if he got hurt or did dramatically decline.. the full cap hit is staying on our books no matter what.

Also... $5m would be a raise for him, which is quite surprising to me.

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06-26-2012, 10:52 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I don't have a problem with playing Callahan on the third line with Dubinsky and Anisimov (although I also have no problem playing him on the second line; he doesn't need chemistry to be effective or to help his linemates) and Doan on the second line with Stepan and Kreider. It's fantastic...except for the fact that it leaves Hagelin as the first line LW.
i'm confident that hagelin will improve. cally might be a better option, but we underestimate hagelin's puck chase (and the media overestimates it). i could see hagelin being a regular 50-60 point guy. he was on pace for 48 in the regular season(as a rookie--stepan only scored 45 as a rookie) if he played the full 82. cally's def a better all around player, but hags is still a threat. his speed is tough to defend. if it's a matter of getting cally more minutes i'm sure he could take hagelin's place on and off to mix things up, but i'm not worried about hags in a 2nd line role.

and honestly dubi/anisimov/cally is more natural than hagelin/anisimov/dubinsky

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06-26-2012, 10:52 PM
  #893
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Random thing to remember about Doan (at least in the current CBA).

He'd be a 35+ contract, which means that even if he got hurt or did dramatically decline.. the full cap hit is staying on our books no matter what.

Also... $5m would be a raise for him, which is quite surprising to me.
Well, I don't think you can sign him to anything longer than 2 year deal. I mean, if 3 is the number he won't budge off of, then maybe you have to do it, but anything longer is completely out of the question.

He's not an elite player, but he is an elite power forward, and if that's the niche on your team that needs filling (and it is for this team), you won't find a better option short of Iginla, Nash, and maybe 2-3 other guys.

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06-26-2012, 10:55 PM
  #894
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i'm confident that hagelin will improve. cally might be a better option, but we underestimate hagelin's puck chase (and the media overestimates it). i could see hagelin being a regular 50-60 point guy. he was on pace for 48 in the regular season(as a rookie--stepan only scored 45 as a rookie) if he played the full 82. cally's def a better all around player, but hags is still a threat. his speed is tough to defend. if it's a matter of getting cally more minutes i'm sure he could take hagelin's place on and off to mix things up, but i'm not worried about hags in a 2nd line role.
It's not about Hagelin's ability. I love Hagelin, I think he's fantastic. It's about Richards and Gaborik and what they need out of a linemate. Speed and hustle are great on any line, but they desperately need size, strength, and brute force. For them, that is more important than speed.

And if you can have a guy of Hagelin's caliber on your third line, it drastically improves your team. I happen to also think that Hagelin and his speed would do wonders offensively for Anisimov, and the two of them would make for a formidable line defensively, also.

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06-26-2012, 10:56 PM
  #895
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That's exactly my argument. If he left it alone it might have improved, i doubt it but sending Prust and Boyle out on the PP didn't come close to solving anything. All we need is a top 6 guy so we can leave Boyle, Rupp, Feds if he comes back and any other 3rd or 4th line we have on the 3rd and 4th lines. Guys like Fedotenko can't be expected to do good on a line with Richards and Gaborik and i seen Boyle kill breakouts too many times, it has to end. Hopefully Boyle stays on the 4th line and i won't have to see him kill chances.
The problem in a way was that he really couldn't leave it alone. It wasn't working, and Torts only had 5 or 6 top six guys at any given time. Adding a guy like Doan would allow him to keep the lines a little more regular and then adjust not the lines, but the minutes received by those lines. I think this is another reason the 2 or 3 roster players for 1 guy trades are fruitless. We would just exacerbate the problem from last year (not enough top-9 guys, too many 4th liners). Keep what we've got. Add a Doan or, if he won't sign, someone lesser but FREE (Semin, Sykora, Mueller, whoever).

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06-26-2012, 10:56 PM
  #896
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50 points, with even a small chance for more, is nothing to scoff at, and on a one year deal, the risk of overpaying is non-existant.
I think you are underestimating what Doan and Whitney will get paid and I don't think you're getting bang for your buck. There's already players on the Rangers who will give similar numbers at a fraction of the cost (Hags, AA...and at a salary closer to what they'll get, Dubi).

Eric Cole had 26 goals and 52 points and got a 4 year deal worth $4.5MM per year last summer. Connolly got $4.75MM for 2 years after 13 goals and 42 points in 68 games.

Doan doesn't want to leave Phoenix. He's a Western Canadian guy who is not looking to play in a big city like NY. This will be his one shot to cash in from a team not crying poverty. I think he's getting at least 2 years and $4.5MM each.

Whitney coming off a 70 point season is getting at least $5MM.

I think you're getting about 20 goals and 50 points from each of them and I don't think spending over $9MM for that is worth it.

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06-26-2012, 10:57 PM
  #897
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Well, I don't think you can sign him to anything longer than 2 year deal. I mean, if 3 is the number he won't budge off of, then maybe you have to do it, but anything longer is completely out of the question.

He's not an elite player, but he is an elite power forward, and if that's the niche on your team that needs filling (and it is for this team), you won't find a better option short of Iginla, Nash, and maybe 2-3 other guys.
I agree. In fact, I actually think you won't find many better players to fit this team, as currently constituted, whether you're talking about a power forward or not, Parise included. Until now, it wasn't worth much discussion because it seemed a sure thing that he'd re-sign in Phoenix, which he still might. My hope is that the guy just wants a new challenge, wants it with a team who will be contending for the Cup, wants to play with a former Canadian Olympic team buddy (Richards), and doesn't hold a grudge about the shenanigans that went on with Callahan in the Rangers/Coyotes game last year (doubtful he does).

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06-26-2012, 10:57 PM
  #898
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I think we will be ok with goal scoring next year, these are my predictions even tho it is way too early and moves can be and players can be signed but whatever.

Kreider-19
Richards-20-
Gaborik-27 due to him missing time
Dubinsky-21
Stepan-18
Callahan-24
Doan (if we get him)- 22
Hagelin-17
AA-15
Boyle-7
Rupp-5
Fedotenko (if he returns)- 11

I think we will be ok but alot can happen

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06-26-2012, 11:00 PM
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The problem in a way was that he really couldn't leave it alone. It wasn't working, and Torts only had 5 or 6 top six guys at any given time. Adding a guy like Doan would allow him to keep the lines a little more regular and then adjust not the lines, but the minutes received by those lines. I think this is another reason the 2 or 3 roster players for 1 guy trades are fruitless. We would just exacerbate the problem from last year (not enough top-9 guys, too many 4th liners). Keep what we've got. Add a Doan or, if he won't sign, someone lesser but FREE (Semin, Sykora, Mueller, whoever).


Well he could have left it alone, put the 5 or 6 top six guys on the PP and leave it and stop giving Boyle PP time over guys like Hagelin and Kreider in the playoffs. I agree a guy like Doan will let Torts balance out the lines more and i also agree if we don't sign Doan, get someone else like a Sykora type or Semin like you said, no need to go crazy with trades, we aren't the Sharks.

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06-26-2012, 11:01 PM
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i could see hagelin being a regular 50-60 point guy. he was on pace for 48 in the regular season(as a rookie--stepan only scored 45 as a rookie) if he played the full 82.
In fairness, Stepan was 20 years old when he "only" scored 45 as a rookie. Hagelin is almost 24. Don't get me wrong--I love Hags and think he could be a good fit on that first line (one of those players who isn't a first liner but fits in well with that line), but I think we need to temper our expectations a bit. He will get better, but I doubt it will be by leaps and bounds. His most significant development is likely behind him. 50 points? Possible if he stays on that top line. 60? I highly doubt Hags ever breaks 60.

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