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Perception of the "three-center model"

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06-26-2012, 10:30 PM
  #1
Jules Winnfield
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Perception of the "three-center model"

I have to bring this point up because it's been bothering me a bit. Whether you read the guys from the Post-Gazette, Trib, or listen to the guys on 93.7 or 105.9, they've all reiterated that Shero has moved away from the "3 center" model we've had over the past few years with Crosby, Malkin, and Staal.

Brandon Sutter is a damn good hockey player. He's going to give us certain advantages that Staal didn't provide us, namely being a gritty RH shot who can win faceoffs. The drop off in play/production from Staal to Sutter will not be so great that you move away from the so called 3 center model. Sutter doesn't have the "upside" Staal has and would frustrate us with not displaying but he's a consistent warrior that doesn't have many flaws in his game.

Why do I feel that we haven't really moved away from the 3 center model and none of these other guys can see it? Is it just me? What are your thoughts?

If anything, I see Sutter giving us certain advantages and also allowing us cap flexibility over the next few years with his current contract and upcoming RFA status. We still will be employing 3 really good centers to come at you with while also opening up some cap space to potentially bring in an impact player on the wing or at defense.

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06-26-2012, 10:56 PM
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shureshot66
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Hmm... I think the thread just needs a different title. Let's try this again.

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06-26-2012, 10:58 PM
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Jules Winnfield
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Originally Posted by shureshot66 View Post
Hmm... I think the thread just needs a different title. Let's try this again.
Edit: Just saw you changed it. Thanks!

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06-26-2012, 10:59 PM
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Darth Vitale
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Easy solution: assume none of the Pittsburgh hockey media know WTF they're talking about WRT to x's and o's, that they over-simplify everything, and that they didn't get that from Shero. Who in fact said the exact opposite... that they intend to slot Sutter into that 3C system. He said on Saturday or Sunday something almost exactly like "We've got our 3C and that's worked well for us; Brandon is going to be a good fit for us."

These guys are morons. I don't know what else to say. They're not going to change the 3C model.

Ignore them.

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06-26-2012, 10:59 PM
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I went with the perception angle, but feel free to change it yourself. Just click next to the thread title (not directly on it) on the main forum view.

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06-26-2012, 11:10 PM
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Jules Winnfield
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post

These guys are morons. I don't know what else to say. They're not going to change the 3C model.
I wouldn't say Madden is a moron and even he has said it multiple times. (Though Madden's tweet about the Pens not trading Staal hours before he was traded was good for lulz.)


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06-26-2012, 11:28 PM
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Ugene Malkin
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I think Sutter plays to the Pens strength. The three C model is still there, but it has been modified. While you list his RHS, he will also infuse a bit better speed with also realizing his potential is to be higher. That's the only thing that even keeps his value lower than Staal as the 3rd C model. This team is probably gonna max out his potential due to the fact he can produce when given the opportunity. He's gonna get some favorable match-ups with Sid and Geno ahead of him. I certainly think his potential here is around Jordans plateau of a couple seasons back.

I know with how this teams constructed with his addition will not only still be a 3-C model, but one of the best still, if not the best. I look forward to Brandon pouring his heart and sole into trying to be a winner on a team that is already a winner.

That's the one thing "passion" I think was missing from this team. They certainly were winning, but I think that was mostly due to skill. We need guys who want to win and are ready to do whatever it takes.

Him plus say Parise, whom had a bad taste left in his mouth, who is also every bit passionate. Could be even more motivated after what he just went through. We don't want free loaders just riding the wave, they need to be every bit a part of why that wave is powering in. I see this in, Sutter.

I'll still believe the 3C model is still alive, and every indication is pointing to this team being passionate once again.

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06-26-2012, 11:58 PM
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Sutter is your prototypical "elite" 3rd liner. 20 goal, 40 point potential, gritty, good defense, and relatively cheap.

His presence on the 3rd line allows Shero to surround Sid and Geno with more talent, instead of spreading the wealth between 3 lines.

From what I read about Sutter, his ceiling is high enough to imply that the 3 center model still exists on this team.

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06-27-2012, 12:44 AM
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3C model in Pittsburgh was only about our big guns(sid, geno, jordan) playing on separate lines. Since Jordan is gone the term should be gone from our lexicon.

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06-27-2012, 01:22 AM
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We never actually saw 3C. 3C was what might have happened if Staal reached his full potential and the farm system started developing a steady stream of wingers to complement each of the centers.

3C is what I was hoping we'd be able to become someday. Three FIRST lines.

Sutter seems like a fine defensive center and probably will do some things for us that Staal can't do, but I don't think there's enough upside in his game to fill the role that I once envisioned for Staal.

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06-27-2012, 01:44 AM
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Coach John McGuirk
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The three center model owed it's success far more to Sid and Geno being our 1C and 2C than it did to Staal being our 3C.

If we had Sid, Geno, and Sutter as our top 3 centers, we'd still have the best three centers in hockey. Why? Because after Sid and Geno, it doesn't really matter all that much.

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06-27-2012, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
The three center model owed it's success far more to Sid and Geno being our 1C and 2C than it did to Staal being our 3C.

If we had Sid, Geno, and Sutter as our top 3 centers, we'd still have the best three centers in hockey. Why? Because after Sid and Geno, it doesn't really matter all that much.
That and Sutter is still, at the very least, a top 5 'true' third line center in the league...probably closer to top 3.

The three center system didn't take much of a hit.

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06-27-2012, 02:04 AM
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Semantics, isn't it?

I think you can say that we are moving away from the 3C model in the sense that we are not allocating an untypical amount of money to the third line center, and most likely Sutter will also see less minutes than what Staal did (as he often had parity with Sid/Malkin in terms of minutes).

One can see that as a slight on Sutter, but then I think we're reaching a bit.

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06-27-2012, 02:10 AM
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The 3C model was entirely a perception thing to begin with - having 3 big name centers, two of whom happen to be world class and the best two centers of their generation. It was about those three players as centers and those three specifically. More to the point, it was a term that came about in contrast to various Staal or Malkin as a winger ideas, and in contrast to "trade Staal/Malkin for wingers" ideas.

So in a literal sense, because it was always about Crosby/Malkin/Staal, yes, we have moved away from that model. The amusing thing is that now we actually do have an unambiguously direct setup at center; there's no question now as to whether Malkin or Sutter might move to wing because they won't. And Sutter at least has the potential to be almost as good as Staal offensively (and is about as good defensively anyway). So in reality, the core of that strategy (have 3 lines with good centers, fill in with mostly inexpensive but appropriate wingers) is still there.

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06-27-2012, 02:32 AM
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Justin Sickways
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I've always just taken their "3C model" to mean the team prefered to sacrifice upgrading the top 6 to preserve the dynamic for success that Crosby, Malkin, and Staal provided.... three centers that can play dominant, formidable hockey to overwhelm the opposition. I've just always thought about that "3C model" term in that context. I think that is what those in the media mean when they say the Pens have moved away from that model and onto one that provides Crosby and Malkin with the kind of wingers they've rarely had: guys who can create offense on their own. We'll still be as good down the middle as anyone but the dynamics change significantly with the best offensive catalysts on the top two lines instead of down the middle spread over three lines . Just my two cents.

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06-27-2012, 06:38 AM
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Good thread. The Penguins haven't moved away fom the 3C model they just teired it better.

Still no word on what the Rangers were offering up for Staal. Has anyone heard anything?

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06-27-2012, 07:05 AM
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Florentino Ariza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
I have to bring this point up because it's been bothering me a bit. Whether you read the guys from the Post-Gazette, Trib, or listen to the guys on 93.7 or 105.9, they've all reiterated that Shero has moved away from the "3 center" model we've had over the past few years with Crosby, Malkin, and Staal.

Brandon Sutter is a damn good hockey player. He's going to give us certain advantages that Staal didn't provide us, namely being a gritty RH shot who can win faceoffs. The drop off in play/production from Staal to Sutter will not be so great that you move away from the so called 3 center model. Sutter doesn't have the "upside" Staal has and would frustrate us with not displaying but he's a consistent warrior that doesn't have many flaws in his game.

Why do I feel that we haven't really moved away from the 3 center model and none of these other guys can see it? Is it just me? What are your thoughts?

If anything, I see Sutter giving us certain advantages and also allowing us cap flexibility over the next few years with his current contract and upcoming RFA status. We still will be employing 3 really good centers to come at you with while also opening up some cap space to potentially bring in an impact player on the wing or at defense.
If you frame it that way every team in the National Hockey League has a 3C or 4C model, that being they try to hire the best Cs they can that are hard to play against. The 3C model differed in Pgh from other teams because Pittsburgh was breaking the bank on its third C. Staal is definitely a better player than Sutter and he has higher offensive upside, too, so it's not just a debate about salary.

The 3C model was the result of having a guy like Jordan Staal on the team. I think it was a fine way to do things but it is time to give Crosby and Malkin some breathing room (especially Crosby) by signing a skilled winger for him. I think the Penguins had the personnel to win the Cup then and now, with a change in philosophy, they are going to be in a position to win it again. I don't think the 3C model was better or worse in its heyday than the new structure will (theoretically) be, however, I feel that it ran its course. Staal's needs and wants coincided neatly with the direction I think the organization should be taking.

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06-27-2012, 08:58 AM
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3 C was about having three 1st line centers each centering his own line, or potential 1st line centers. at least from my pov. after trading Staal away we have two 1st line centers obv. Sutter seems like the prototypical good 3rd line center.

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06-27-2012, 09:05 AM
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Sutter is good, but the 3 center model was based on having 3 elite centers.

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06-27-2012, 09:07 AM
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We will have center depth so long as 1 and 2 involve crosby and malkin. The 3 deep is a little different now because sutter is a great player, but not an elite talent. So we are not 3 center "model" of 3 DOMINATING centers. Granted, playoffs was really the peak of staals domination.

However, this is not to say we wont have just as capable a 3rd line in terms of effectiveness within the role they play.

My biggest gripe with the 3 centers was that I couldn't actually see the "matchup advantage" which was so clear on paper translating into headaches for other teams the past two years. Our 3rd line wasn't really "shutting down", and DB wasn't line matching.

I like how we are setting up now more. Lets make two quality 3rd lines. Lines which can grind and pound to open up the ice for two loaded top lines over the course of a game. EI. I want guys like adams gone.

We could cost effectively rebuild the bottom 6 with something like:

ET Sutter Gaustad <Size and grit
Cooke Vitale TK < Speed and grit

That could allow us 4 effective lines which can earn time depending on performance, matchup, or situation.

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06-27-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
I wouldn't say Madden is a moron and even he has said it multiple times. (Though Madden's tweet about the Pens not trading Staal hours before he was traded was good for lulz.)

I would. He's a typical loud-mouth radio guy trying to stir up drama because he doesn't actually have anything new to say most of the time. And he's a ****ing slob to boot. Maybe if he could do a radio interview without spitting every 7 words, I could tolerate him more.

On a tangent I just watched the first installment of "Top Line" on the Pens' site and it was terrible (Mears and Yohe). Looks and sounded like a public access TV show. My favorite was the oscillating audio. Wayne's World had better production values. Mears himself isn't that bad (Yohe projects as an oaf, so obviously not much direction going on there) but overall it was painful. Seriously, there are college campuses out there putting out higher quality podcasts / video than this.

I don't know what it is about Pittsburgh (maybe something in the water) but it is where good journalism / video / radio goes to die.

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06-27-2012, 09:22 AM
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I see Sutter being the player Staal was before he broke out offensively. A bit more committed defensively and a better skater.

Build around Sid/Geno and give Sutter some offensive opportunities here and there so he'll want to stay longterm. 2 years until he's a RFA.

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06-27-2012, 09:24 AM
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I see Sutter being the player Staal was before he broke out offensively. A bit more committed defensively and a better skater.

Build around Sid/Geno and give Sutter some offensive opportunities here and there so he'll want to stay longterm. 2 years until he's a RFA.
When will Sutter be UFA eligible?

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06-27-2012, 09:27 AM
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When will Sutter be UFA eligible?
He will be RFA summer after next (he'll be 25 then), so I'm assuming it will be at the end of the next contract he signs if it's say a 3 or 4 year deal, barring some CBA rule change extending the age limit.

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06-27-2012, 09:28 AM
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Ogrezilla
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He will be RFA summer after next.
Right. When will he be UFA eligible? Assuming the rules stay the same. There should be a year right? Is it after 7 years?

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