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Offseason Discussion VII: Never Go Full-Rossi (Contract chart/FA list in Post #1)

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06-24-2012, 11:02 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
I disagree with Rossi on another topic, however: that the Pens would trade their 1st for Ryan Suter's rights, even if it was conditional upon him signing. No chance. In a cap world with an expensive payrol and needing a steady influx of good, inexpensive talent, I don't see us moving a 1st in what's supposed to be the best draft in years. IF we trade that pick, it's for an elite forward, like Ryan or Iginla at the deadline if Flames rebuild, or perhaps Brendan Morrow if he rebounds with a strong year and Dallas continues to rebuild.
Agreed. I can't see that happening. Is there any precedent for that? I can't remember any conditional 1st for signing someone's UFA. I know picks for soon to be UFA's rights are a fairly recent occurrence, but that scenario sounds very unlikely.

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06-24-2012, 11:05 PM
  #27
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"Going nuclear" is such a Rossi-ism.
Maybe he's been listening to some Ryan Adams lately.

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06-24-2012, 11:32 PM
  #28
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If it comes down to it, Id rather have Parise then Suter. I hope both sign but the Pens lack an elite winger to play with Crosby and have blue chip defensemen prospects coming out of the woodwork.

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06-25-2012, 12:50 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Zirakzigil View Post
If it comes down to it, Id rather have Parise then Suter. I hope both sign but the Pens lack an elite winger to play with Crosby and have blue chip defensemen prospects coming out of the woodwork.
You mean coming out the wazoo? Because I've never heard the woodwork term used often before.

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06-25-2012, 12:54 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SinfulCobraZ View Post
And a lot are coming up with the idea that we will dismantle our core as we have to extend Malkin, Crosby and Letang.
You honestly don't see issues filling out a roster with a core of:

Crosby 9m
Malkin 9m
Suter 7.5m
Parise 7.5m
Letang 6.5m
Neal 5m
MAF 5m

That's 49m tied up in 4 forwards, 2 D and a goalie. With a cap around 70m, you still need 9 more forwards, and 5 D and a backup. That means you have 1.3m for each. Everyone would have to be on excellent contracts for that to work.

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06-25-2012, 01:04 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Zirakzigil View Post
If it comes down to it, Id rather have Parise then Suter. I hope both sign but the Pens lack an elite winger to play with Crosby and have blue chip defensemen prospects coming out of the woodwork.
I was having similar thoughts. Can someone explain to me why defense is more a priority than wing for the Pens? I keep hearing that, OMG, the Pens have to sign Suter first, not Parise. Why exactly?

Granted for next year they will be taking a huge chance if they rely on Despres, Brian Dumoulin or Morrow, even though those players would be in the NHL already on a lot of teams. And any of them should slot in very well, Despres particularly looked great in his time with the Pens. But look at the defensive depth:

Minors:

Simon Despres, Brian Dumoulin, Joe Morrow, Derrick Pouliot, Scott Harrington, Brian Strait, Robert Bortuzzo, Philip Samuelsson, Carl Sneep, Nick D'Agostino.

Pens:

Kris Letang, Paul Martin, Brooks Orpik, Deryk Engelland, Matt Niskanen, Ben Lovejoy

They will lose Brian Strait and Robert Bortuzzo for nothing if sent down. The long and short of it is that the Pens are stacked with quality defensive options that will be cheap for the better part of the next decade. Signing a stud defender and tying up that much cap space, well is great for the coming year but in years after wouldn't the cap space be better spent on adding Parise and maybe another wing and filling the defensive needs from within?

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06-25-2012, 01:25 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I was having similar thoughts. Can someone explain to me why defense is more a priority than wing for the Pens? I keep hearing that, OMG, the Pens have to sign Suter first, not Parise. Why exactly?
Because we have zero trouble scoring goals and a lot of trouble keeping the puck out of our net come playoff time?

With Sid, Malkin and Neal we have tremendous star power up front, Kunitz is a very good complimentary piece and we ought to be more than fine (not to say wickedly spoiled) by having just competent guys to round out that top6.

You can mention our prospect depth on D, fine, but you never know if they are going to actually make it big.
We have to win now while Sid and Malkin are in their primes, and you need experience and competence on D to win anything. We cannot just load up on star forwards and assume that guys like Despres or Morrow (or whoever) are ready to carry big loads and roles in the playoffs. So far - not even Letang has looked REALLY good defensively in the playoffs at any point, and it is asking a lot to think that our upcoming guys will out-do him. Supplementary roles to start with (think Voinov/Martinec.... or indeed Letang himself when we actually went far), OK, but then someone needs to do the heavy lifting. If our prospects then look really good when coming up, then we can move out more salary heavy guys to give them space. Just remember that if the highly touted prospects actually do well, then they need to have big salary increases also.


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06-25-2012, 04:17 AM
  #33
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Even if the Pens did struggle on d, so far, they have invested tons of draft picks in defense, and almost nothing on forward. Having Sid play with one of the best wingers in the game would allow him to flourish, as opposed to just having the Dupuis's (even though I like him) of the world as wingers constantly.

Besides, having what they have now, and what they have in their farm system, by signing someone to a 7 mil per year deal long term is just going to get in the way when you have much cheaper options that may turn out better. Especially with Letang and Malkin's deals coming up in two years.

Honestly, I'd rather sign like a combination of Bryan Allen and Jason Garrison for two or three years apiece. Hold the fort while the first round picks get their experience, then bring them up. Trade Martin. Then you got :
Letang/Garrison
Orpik/Allen
Niskanen/Engylland
...for basically the same price. Maybe a little more.

I also think TK doesn't add much to the team. He scores once in a while, but doesn't do anything besides that. He doesn't make the players around him better, he's not tough. See if they could move him, maybe to Montreal. I like signing Knuble to a one year deal. Same price, more grit. Plus get some return on the trade. He could be ideal with Sutter and Cooke on the third line, and occasionally fill in next to Sid instead of Dupuis.

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06-25-2012, 05:19 AM
  #34
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Parise's signing will be a huge risk on July 1.

I would be really surprised if Zach decides where he will sign during the first day. I expect, at least, the same as Brad Richards. He will wait one day.

Let's say Pens and Wild and Wings will be front-runners and decision won't be made on July 1. If he chooses other than Pens, we're ****ed, cause all other good forward FAs will be signed.

It could be the same scenario like it was with Hossa, we waited, we didn't signed him and we ended up with nothing, cause nothing left.

I just don't think Shero will be patient man. The same as he didn't wait for Jagr.

If you're going for lifetime contract, you have to wait and make the best decision. I would be surprised if the decision is made within couple hours.


Last edited by shureshot66: 06-25-2012 at 06:23 AM. Reason: filter
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06-25-2012, 05:42 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
You honestly don't see issues filling out a roster with a core of:

Crosby 9m
Malkin 9m
Suter 7.5m
Parise 7.5m
Letang 6.5m
Neal 5m
MAF 5m

That's 49m tied up in 4 forwards, 2 D and a goalie. With a cap around 70m, you still need 9 more forwards, and 5 D and a backup. That means you have 1.3m for each. Everyone would have to be on excellent contracts for that to work.

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06-25-2012, 06:20 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Because we have zero trouble scoring goals and a lot of trouble keeping the puck out of our net come playoff time?

With Sid, Malkin and Neal we have tremendous star power up front, Kunitz is a very good complimentary piece and we ought to be more than fine (not to say wickedly spoiled) by having just competent guys to round out that top6.

You can mention our prospect depth on D, fine, but you never know if they are going to actually make it big.
We have to win now while Sid and Malkin are in their primes, and you need experience and competence on D to win anything. We cannot just load up on star forwards and assume that guys like Despres or Morrow (or whoever) are ready to carry big loads and roles in the playoffs. So far - not even Letang has looked REALLY good defensively in the playoffs at any point, and it is asking a lot to think that our upcoming guys will out-do him. Supplementary roles to start with (think Voinov/Martinec.... or indeed Letang himself when we actually went far), OK, but then someone needs to do the heavy lifting. If our prospects then look really good when coming up, then we can move out more salary heavy guys to give them space. Just remember that if the highly touted prospects actually do well, then they need to have big salary increases also.
would you be unhappy with a defense like this?

Orpik-Letang
Allen/Martin-Niskanen
Despres-Engellend
Bortuzzo

Because that leaves us with a bit over 10M to sign forwards.

and btw, we just traded our leading goal scorer of these playoffs. We will absolutely have trouble scoring goals and maintaining possession if we don't upgrade our wings a bit. Doesn't need to be Parise, but it shouldn't be Sully and Dupuis either.


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06-25-2012, 06:28 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
would you be unhappy with a defense like this?

Orpik-Letang
Allen-Niskanen
Despres-Engellend
Bortuzzo
No, but i am wondering if Nashville would take a major deal?

I think we are stuck with Martin for 1. My guess is the reason we got virtually nothing for Michalek is because the only teams wanting Martin were the ones on his list that he would not go to. Anyway...

The rumor around Nashville is the Weber will be very unhappy if Suter leaves and will likely do what Staal was going to either hold out next year or sign a 1 year deal and leave. What if Shero forces their hand and makes a few offers to see what happens?

My DREAM defense:

Trade Orpik, Kennedy, Tangradi to Nashville for the right to Weber and Suter. Do 7.5 mil for both long-term. Sign Niskanen for 2.5

Weber-Suter
Letang-Niskanen
Martin-Eng/Lovejoy/Despres

Then see if they can get one of the 20 teams not on Martin's list to take his salary.

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06-25-2012, 06:34 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
You honestly don't see issues filling out a roster with a core of:

Crosby 9m
Malkin 9m
Suter 7.5m
Parise 7.5m
Letang 6.5m
Neal 5m
MAF 5m

That's 49m tied up in 4 forwards, 2 D and a goalie. With a cap around 70m, you still need 9 more forwards, and 5 D and a backup. That means you have 1.3m for each. Everyone would have to be on excellent contracts for that to work.
Honestly that core is insane. That is all you would ever need.

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06-25-2012, 06:35 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
would you be unhappy with a defense like this?

Orpik-Letang
Allen/Martin-Niskanen
Despres-Engellend
Bortuzzo

Because that leaves us with a bit over 10M to sign forwards.
Not really, no. It think it is quite a lot weaker than this season's D, although less markedly so when considering the pairings compatibility.

I don't see Niskanen as a sure thing as a top4 D-man unless he is paired with a better player, and less so if it is next to Allen who is the prototypical number 4, although that pairing works as an Orpik-Letang Lite. I don't like the Martin-Niskanen pairing (at all), and there's at least a bit of doubt about Orpik - even with Letang.
The third pairing is nice and backup options are very nice, but that top4 is not in the top half of NHL teams, IMO.

Our D-problem is that we have a wealth of options a couple of years away from being genuinely good, and a bad miss-match of abilities on the NHL roster. It is just not the same being ready to play in the NHL and being good there. You can point to Tangradi among our forwards, and you could point to the Caps Carlson and Alzner as really, really good prospects who still needed time to become dependable NHL defensemen (Carlson made a splash anyway for his offense, not unlike a Del Zotto... and I suppose a Morrow could too... but that doesn't make them playoff defenders).

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06-25-2012, 06:36 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by ds246pit View Post
No, but i am wondering if Nashville would take a major deal?

I think we are stuck with Martin for 1. My guess is the reason we got virtually nothing for Michalek is because the only teams wanting Martin were the ones on his list that he would not go to. Anyway...

The rumor around Nashville is the Weber will be very unhappy if Suter leaves and will likely do what Staal was going to either hold out next year or sign a 1 year deal and leave. What if Shero forces their hand and makes a few offers to see what happens?

My DREAM defense:

Trade Orpik, Kennedy, Tangradi to Nashville for the right to Weber and Suter. Do 7.5 mil for both long-term. Sign Niskanen for 2.5

Weber-Suter
Letang-Niskanen
Martin-Eng/Lovejoy/Despres

Then see if they can get one of the 20 teams not on Martin's list to take his salary.
That defense is amazing obviously, but do we really want to spend every dime of our cap on defense? We don't need both of them.

As for Martin, I have very little doubt there will be takers for him after the first batch of UFA guys go on the 1st. That doesn't guarantee we'll trade him, but we will have the option imo.

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06-25-2012, 06:39 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BADoglick View Post
Even if the Pens did struggle on d, so far, they have invested tons of draft picks in defense, and almost nothing on forward. Having Sid play with one of the best wingers in the game would allow him to flourish, as opposed to just having the Dupuis's (even though I like him) of the world as wingers constantly.

Besides, having what they have now, and what they have in their farm system, by signing someone to a 7 mil per year deal long term is just going to get in the way when you have much cheaper options that may turn out better. Especially with Letang and Malkin's deals coming up in two years.

Honestly, I'd rather sign like a combination of Bryan Allen and Jason Garrison for two or three years apiece. Hold the fort while the first round picks get their experience, then bring them up. Trade Martin. Then you got :
Letang/Garrison
Orpik/Allen
Niskanen/Engylland
...for basically the same price. Maybe a little more.

I also think TK doesn't add much to the team. He scores once in a while, but doesn't do anything besides that. He doesn't make the players around him better, he's not tough. See if they could move him, maybe to Montreal. I like signing Knuble to a one year deal. Same price, more grit. Plus get some return on the trade. He could be ideal with Sutter and Cooke on the third line, and occasionally fill in next to Sid instead of Dupuis.
I agree with you. We invested a ton on defensive prospects and not so much on forwards. Allen and Garrisson would be an upgrade on defense without breaking the bank. I would pair Letang and Allen and Garrison and Orpik. Parise in my opinion is a must. Those top 2 lines will dominate games for sure. Martin and Kennedy have to be moved as well I agree. Which teams could use Kennedy and or Martins services? Who could we get in return for Martin and Kennedy?

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06-25-2012, 06:39 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Not really, no. It think it is quite a lot weaker than this season's D, although less markedly so when considering the pairings compatibility.

I don't see Niskanen as a sure thing as a top4 D-man unless he is paired with a better player, and less so if it is next to Allen who is the prototypical number 4, although that pairing works as an Orpik-Letang Lite. I don't like the Martin-Niskanen pairing (at all), and there's at least a bit of doubt about Orpik - even with Letang.
The third pairing is nice and backup options are very nice, but that top4 is not in the top half of NHL teams, IMO.

Our D-problem is that we have a wealth of options a couple of years away from being genuinely good, and a bad miss-match of abilities on the NHL roster. It is just not the same being ready to play in the NHL and being good there. You can point to Tangradi among our forwards, and you could point to the Caps Carlson and Alzner as really, really good prospects who still needed time to become dependable NHL defensemen (Carlson made a splash anyway for his offense, not unlike a Del Zotto... and I suppose a Morrow could too... but that doesn't make them playoff defenders).
I might just be higher on Despres than you are I guess. I see him passing Niskanen on the depth chart in a few months. Which I think balances things out a lot more.

And I really don't want Martin and Niskanen together either. I don't want both to be on the team in general. Hell, if Parise is the only forward we think we need, we could have Allen and Martin as the second pair and dump Niskanen. I'm in no way sold on Allen either. He's just a name I keep hearing so I plug him in to basically mean UFA defenseman.

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06-25-2012, 06:42 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
and btw, we just traded our leading goal scorer of these playoffs. We will absolutely have trouble scoring goals and maintaining possession if we don't upgrade our wings a bit. Doesn't need to be Parise, but it shouldn't be Sully and Dupuis either.
Take away Staal's six goals and we still have the 2nd highest gpg average among playoff teams. Only Philly who murdered our defense have more.

Then consider that Sutter produces at least half the offense Staal does, that we hopefully have Sid for the full season and that there's extra money to put into the wings never mind if it is the nuclear Parise option or not.

We all know that there will be work done on the wings in free agency. But it doesn't necessarily have to be Parise. While obviously not as good, the net effect of getting Whitney could be higher for what he'd do for our PP. Whitney would be far superior as an upgrade to our PP compared to Parise.

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06-25-2012, 06:45 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I might just be higher on Despres than you are I guess..
Tough to imagine

But I wanted him next to Michalek, because that'd insulate him rather than have him try and insulate Niskanen. Despres-Michalek was a very, very obvious fit from the first shift they played together.

Allen worked very well for Carolina this season because no one expected offense from his pairing at all, and Gleason had a spectacular season. But while Allen offers some qualities we could definitely use, in many ways he is rough as a camels ass, and should not play big minutes like what our top4 usual does.

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06-25-2012, 06:51 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Take away Staal's six goals and we still have the 2nd highest gpg average among playoff teams. Only Philly who murdered our defense have more.

Then consider that Sutter produces at least half the offense Staal does, that we hopefully have Sid for the full season and that there's extra money to put into the wings never mind if it is the nuclear Parise option or not.

We all know that there will be work done on the wings in free agency. But it doesn't necessarily have to be Parise. While obviously not as good, the net effect of getting Whitney could be higher for what he'd do for our PP. Whitney would be far superior as an upgrade to our PP compared to Parise.
Alright, I agree with that. I do really want Parise, but he is not the only option that will help us. Except I think its a bit faulty to say we had the 2nd best offense in the playoffs. Philly was just about as bad at defense and goalie as we were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Tough to imagine

But I wanted him next to Michalek, because that'd insulate him rather than have him try and insulate Niskanen. Despres-Michalek was a very, very obvious fit from the first shift they played together.

Allen worked very well for Carolina this season because no one expected offense from his pairing at all, and Gleason had a spectacular season. But while Allen offers some qualities we could definitely use, in many ways he is rough as a camels ass, and should not play big minutes like what our top4 usual does.
I really did want Despres-Michalek too. Are there any other UFA D that could be better fits than Allen or Martin?

http://www.mynhltraderumors.com/2011...ed-defensemen/

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06-25-2012, 07:17 AM
  #46
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Alright, I agree with that. I do really want Parise, but he is not the only option that will help us. Except I think its a bit faulty to say we had the 2nd best offense in the playoffs. Philly was just about as bad at defense and goalie as we were.

Well... it was a terrible series from a defensive standpoint, but I think you can glean more from the fact that we scored more than anyone else in the regular season - with Crosby out half the time.
Scoring is just not an issue on this team.

Special teams, defensive solidity against good&physical teams, and of course goal tending, is.

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I really did want Despres-Michalek too. Are there any other UFA D that could be better fits than Allen or Martin?
Suter notwithstanding.... not really, IMO. Now that we dealt Michalek we are down to either finding the right kind of physical compliment to Martin (Allen works, as does Aucoin if we gamble on his health), but then we really made little progress salarywise.

Considering the top4 we had last year, it is difficult to point to UFA's who are not Suter to improve D, unless Garrison's last season is really who he is now. But one could overpay him big time for a fantastic season in his UFA year only to see him revert to his far less spectacular mean.

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06-25-2012, 07:52 AM
  #47
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shero on wdve just said he is NOT trading for anyones rights.

take that for what its worth

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06-25-2012, 07:59 AM
  #48
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Heard the Steigy interview at around 8:15 on my way in. He's so good on the radio in a way that makes it seem as if he's playing a character when he's broadcasting games on Root.

He seemed to be sure we were going after Suter and/or Parise, but was concerned about not being able to offer heavily front-loaded contracts.

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06-25-2012, 08:02 AM
  #49
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from what he said (steigy) i get he gets the feeling one or the other. we shall see! free agency is so fun!

rob rossi i on dve at 915 (ugh)

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06-25-2012, 08:06 AM
  #50
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from what he said (steigy) i get he gets the feeling one or the other. we shall see! free agency is so fun!

rob rossi i on dve at 915 (ugh)
Rossi will just repeat everything in his "going nuclear" story for the DVE listeners.

Pretty sure that phrase is going to stick with him until the end of time.

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