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Was the JVR - Schenn deal strictly a hockey trade?

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Old
06-25-2012, 12:43 AM
  #1
DeathToAllButMetal
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Was the JVR - Schenn deal strictly a hockey trade?

This refers to the JVR-Schenn deal, but deals with what it says about the Leafs in the grand scheme of things. Be nice if the mods didn't merge it, different discussion, IMO.

Okay, the JVR-Schenn deal. Sure, you can make the argument that it is a good hockey trade. I'll buy that, seems like a fair exchange in value, as Schenn hasn't progressed as expected and JVR has potentially serious injury issues (otherwise, I doubt Philly makes this trade). JVR has promise, and I was never very high on Schenn.

But here's what really bugs me. Burke is talking about this deal as a big piece of the puzzle, a solid addition to the top six that will make the Leafs a lot better right away. But Homer in Philly clearly made this trade in large part to dump what he deems as a somewhat failed prospect and clear the way for a superior replacement to JVR in (likely) Bobby Ryan.

Does this bother anybody else? I agree that JVR still has potential, but it really seems like the Leafs are yet again making do with somebody else's scraps, another sorta reclamation project that another club gave up on. And worse yet, raving about how they've made this amazing pick-up, when in reality JVR is a HUGE question mark coming off injuries and some questions about his commitment. While the Flyers shoot for the moon and go after the top forwards available like a Bobby Ryan, the Leafs just take what they can get.

I'm sort of happy with this trade, as I've never been fond of Schenn. But there is something there that bothers me, like the Leafs are taking the back seat to clubs like the Flyers and Kings. They're being bold, making big moves, and leveraging their talent pool to make significant deals to overhaul their clubs. Burke, though, settles for risky rejects, then tries to sell them to the fanbase as future stars.

Anyhow, this just stuck out to me after reading all the coverage of the trade. With the Leafs, getting JVR is the end goal. With the Flyers, getting rid of JVR is a way to clear room for an upgrade and bring in a young bottom pairing D-man. Big difference in the approaches of the two teams.


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06-25-2012, 12:45 AM
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Its like trading Schenn to open up a spot for Schultz

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06-25-2012, 12:52 AM
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Badger Mayhew
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You should probably go read 98% of Flyers fans' reaction to the trade.

They saw JVR as a huge part of the future of the team and were pretty pissed to be giving him up when his value was low.

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06-25-2012, 12:54 AM
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Dangles McGavin
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I understand what you're saying, and respect your view, because it makes sense.

That being said, I completely disagree. The Flyers and Leafs are at completely different stages of their 'growth'. Flyers have unreal depth on their team, and so many young forward pieces so they could afford trade one of them off. Leafs don't have the depth/assets to trade semi-major pieces for a major piece like Bobby Ryan. We could absolutely get Ryan. But it would cost way too much, and doesn't make sense for the team as of right now. We aren't a Bobby Ryan away from winning the cup.

At this point, a potential for potential trade makes so much more sense for us. JVR has massive potential; there's a reason he was second overall, and he's definitely shown flashes of brilliance. As of right now Burke is building the Leafs for TODAY, as well as stockpiling young assets (so many first rounders in the system lol). Watch them develop, and soon enough we'll be making bigger trades to move from playoff-tweener to contender. We're just not at that stage yet.

IMO.

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06-25-2012, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathToAllButMetal View Post
This refers to the JVR-Schenn deal, but deals with what it says about the Leafs in the grand scheme of things. Be nice if the mods didn't merge it, different discussion, IMO.

Okay, the JVR-Schenn deal. Sure, you can make the argument that it is a good hockey trade. I'll buy that, seems like a fair exchange in value, as Schenn hasn't progressed as expected and JVR has potentially serious injury issues (otherwise, I doubt Philly makes this trade). JVR has promise, and I was never very high on Schenn.

But here's what really bugs me. Burke is talking about this deal as a big piece of the puzzle, a solid addition to the top six that will make the Leafs a lot better right away. But Homer in Philly clearly made this trade in large part to dump what he deems as a somewhat failed prospect and clear the way for a superior replacement to JVR in (likely) Bobby Ryan.

Does this bother anybody else? I agree that JVR still has potential, but it really seems like the Leafs are yet again making do with somebody else's scraps, another sorta reclamation project that another club gave up on. And worse yet, raving about how they've made this amazing pick-up, when in reality JVR is a HUGE question mark coming off injuries and some questions about his commitment. While the Flyers shoot for the moon and go after the top forwards available like a Bobby Ryan, the Leafs just take what they can get.

I'm sort of happy with this trade, as I've never been fond of Schenn. But there is something there that bothers me, like the Leafs are taking the back seat to clubs like the Flyers and Kings. They're being bold, making big moves, and leveraging their talent pool to make significant deals to overhaul their clubs. Burke, though, settles for risky rejects, then tries to sell them to the fanbase as future stars.

Anyhow, this just stuck out to me after reading all the coverage of the trade. With the Leafs, getting JVR is the end goal. With the Flyers, getting rid of JVR is a way to clear room for an upgrade and bring in a young bottom pairing D-man. Big difference in the approaches of the two teams.
The Flyers only elite forward since Briere is on the decline is Giroux.

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06-25-2012, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathToAllButMetal View Post
This refers to the JVR-Schenn deal, but deals with what it says about the Leafs in the grand scheme of things. Be nice if the mods didn't merge it, different discussion, IMO.

Okay, the JVR-Schenn deal. Sure, you can make the argument that it is a good hockey trade. I'll buy that, seems like a fair exchange in value, as Schenn hasn't progressed as expected and JVR has potentially serious injury issues (otherwise, I doubt Philly makes this trade). JVR has promise, and I was never very high on Schenn.

But here's what really bugs me. Burke is talking about this deal as a big piece of the puzzle, a solid addition to the top six that will make the Leafs a lot better right away. But Homer in Philly clearly made this trade in large part to dump what he deems as a somewhat failed prospect and clear the way for a superior replacement to JVR in (likely) Bobby Ryan.

Does this bother anybody else? I agree that JVR still has potential, but it really seems like the Leafs are yet again making do with somebody else's scraps, another sorta reclamation project that another club gave up on. And worse yet, raving about how they've made this amazing pick-up, when in reality JVR is a HUGE question mark coming off injuries and some questions about his commitment. While the Flyers shoot for the moon and go after the top forwards available like a Bobby Ryan, the Leafs just take what they can get.

I'm sort of happy with this trade, as I've never been fond of Schenn. But there is something there that bothers me, like the Leafs are taking the back seat to clubs like the Flyers and Kings. They're being bold, making big moves, and leveraging their talent pool to make significant deals to overhaul their clubs. Burke, though, settles for risky rejects, then tries to sell them to the fanbase as future stars.

Anyhow, this just stuck out to me after reading all the coverage of the trade. With the Leafs, getting JVR is the end goal. With the Flyers, getting rid of JVR is a way to clear room for an upgrade and bring in a young bottom pairing D-man. Big difference in the approaches of the two teams.
There is some crazy spin going on in this thread. I don't agree with most of what you said. You say we are the ones taking the chance. ummm, and what is Philly doing? Schenn is probably one of the most overrated prospects we have ever had.

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06-25-2012, 01:00 AM
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No, the fact that we haven't made the playoffs since before the lockout and finished in the bottom five this year proves we're second-rate.

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06-25-2012, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathToAllButMetal View Post
This refers to the JVR-Schenn deal, but deals with what it says about the Leafs in the grand scheme of things. Be nice if the mods didn't merge it, different discussion, IMO.

Okay, the JVR-Schenn deal. Sure, you can make the argument that it is a good hockey trade. I'll buy that, seems like a fair exchange in value, as Schenn hasn't progressed as expected and JVR has potentially serious injury issues (otherwise, I doubt Philly makes this trade). JVR has promise, and I was never very high on Schenn.

But here's what really bugs me. Burke is talking about this deal as a big piece of the puzzle, a solid addition to the top six that will make the Leafs a lot better right away. But Homer in Philly clearly made this trade in large part to dump what he deems as a somewhat failed prospect and clear the way for a superior replacement to JVR in (likely) Bobby Ryan.

Does this bother anybody else? I agree that JVR still has potential, but it really seems like the Leafs are yet again making do with somebody else's scraps, another sorta reclamation project that another club gave up on. And worse yet, raving about how they've made this amazing pick-up, when in reality JVR is a HUGE question mark coming off injuries and some questions about his commitment. While the Flyers shoot for the moon and go after the top forwards available like a Bobby Ryan, the Leafs just take what they can get.

I'm sort of happy with this trade, as I've never been fond of Schenn. But there is something there that bothers me, like the Leafs are taking the back seat to clubs like the Flyers and Kings. They're being bold, making big moves, and leveraging their talent pool to make significant deals to overhaul their clubs. Burke, though, settles for risky rejects, then tries to sell them to the fanbase as future stars.

Anyhow, this just stuck out to me after reading all the coverage of the trade. With the Leafs, getting JVR is the end goal. With the Flyers, getting rid of JVR is a way to clear room for an upgrade and bring in a young bottom pairing D-man. Big difference in the approaches of the two teams.

I think you raise a good point.

From Philly points of view:
JVR is not a typical Philly player. He is big body but he doesn't use his size. Even Giroux, who is smaller player, shows more grit than JVR. I think Philly was happy to trade JVR who is too fragile and dainty for their style of game.

Also they have a gapping hole at defence and need to replace Pronger. Now Schenn is not going to be that player in the short term (and probably not ever) but they are taking chance that he might develop a game to be a competent #1/#2D. And given he is young there is a chance of this. The one thing that they like about Schenn is that he hits and hits hard which is the style of game they play.

From Leafs points of view:
Schenn has struggled under the rush based offence under Wilson and didn't look great under Carlyle structure either. The other thing to note is how Burke is accumulating more mobile puck moving defenders (Reily, Gardiner, Liles) etc. I don't think they are happy with his foot speed despite his physicality. And given his struggle perhaps they think he needs to fresh start.

JVR on the otherhand is a minor upgrade to the top 6 with great potential upside. (His numbers are in line with Macarther that is). He is also great at shielding the puck and has a fair 2 way game but he doesn't help the "grinding, truculent" demeanour the leafs want to develop.

This trade looks like a trade where neither party got what they needed but both teams are probably better off at least in the short term. In the longer term, it depends on which player excels under each respective coach.

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06-25-2012, 01:02 AM
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Schenn is more of a failed prospect than JVR.

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06-25-2012, 01:03 AM
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Dangles McGavin
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Originally Posted by Mr Mojo Declinin View Post
No, the fact that we haven't made the playoffs since before the lockout and finished in the bottom five this year proves we're second-rate.
Dang that stings.

I can't even argue this.

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06-25-2012, 01:10 AM
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what's kept JVR inconsistent is Philly's forward depth and injury. Schenn has had every chance and been put front and centre. can he bet better? yes. How much better is the question.

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06-25-2012, 01:13 AM
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JVR was acquired because of his upside. He showed he belongs with the big boys in the playoffs in 2011, where he scored 7 goals in 11 games.

If you ask any Flyers fan, they'll tell you just how good he was in that series. If we can get a JVR half as good as that, we will have another piece to the puzzle - a legit top 6 forward. If he consistently plays close to that level, I consider it a jackpot for us - a true 1st liner .

Either way, he becomes a part of the teams core for us. The Flyers could let him go because they have better forwards than him in the top 6, and they also have two emerging studs in Schenn, Couturier. Their defense really needs a piece in the long run, and that's why they traded him. Not because they think he's damaged goods.

If I had to chose a forward to move from the Flyers top 9, Read and JVR would be at the top my list. in the end, I'd move JVR just because he would bring back a greater piece. Pretty sure that's what Homer was thinking as well.

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06-25-2012, 01:19 AM
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I don't think this trade proves the Leafs are second rate at all. Both teams trades from their position of strength to fill a position of weakness.

I like JVR and have hope for him. If he can consistently shield the puck and be a force down low, he'll be quite a good player for us.

His skills as a big player make me happy even if he doesn't level his opponents with checks.

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06-25-2012, 01:27 AM
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I'll make it a lot simplier for you:

Each team was trading from a position of strength to address a bigger area of weakness on their respective rosters.

Same rationale as when Whitney was traded for Kunitz, Gologoski was traded for Neal, Johnson was used as the main piece to acquire Carter.

You have to give to get.

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06-25-2012, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
JVR was acquired because of his upside. He showed he belongs with the big boys in the playoffs in 2011, where he scored 7 goals in 11 games.

If you ask any Flyers fan, they'll tell you just how good he was in that series. If we can get a JVR half as good as that, we will have another piece to the puzzle - a legit top 6 forward. If he consistently plays close to that level, I consider it a jackpot for us - a true 1st liner .

Either way, he becomes a part of the teams core for us. The Flyers could let him go because they have better forwards than him in the top 6, and they also have two emerging studs in Schenn, Couturier. Their defense really needs a piece in the long run, and that's why they traded him. Not because they think he's damaged goods.

If I had to chose a forward to move from the Flyers top 9, Read and JVR would be at the top my list. in the end, I'd move JVR just because he would bring back a greater piece. Pretty sure that's what Homer was thinking as well.

What is puzzling is that the leaf top 6 is developing into somewhat skittish, non-physical but offensively geared elite talent. The top 6 is developing into a team that looks more like say the Canucks than say the Blues or Kings.

Than you have Carlyle saying he wants a grinding, defensive minded, forechecking team.

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06-25-2012, 01:36 AM
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Personally I wouldn't call JVR a bad project. He had one bad year, and the rookies in Philly played well enough to make him expendable.

Philly has an abundance of forwards, in our case dmen, good hockey trade.

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06-25-2012, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
I think you raise a good point.

From Philly points of view:
JVR is not a typical Philly player. He is big body but he doesn't use his size. Even Giroux, who is smaller player, shows more grit than JVR. I think Philly was happy to trade JVR who is too fragile and dainty for their style of game.

Also they have a gapping hole at defence and need to replace Pronger. Now Schenn is not going to be that player in the short term (and probably not ever) but they are taking chance that he might develop a game to be a competent #1/#2D. And given he is young there is a chance of this. The one thing that they like about Schenn is that he hits and hits hard which is the style of game they play.

From Leafs points of view:
Schenn has struggled under the rush based offence under Wilson and didn't look great under Carlyle structure either. The other thing to note is how Burke is accumulating more mobile puck moving defenders (Reily, Gardiner, Liles) etc. I don't think they are happy with his foot speed despite his physicality. And given his struggle perhaps they think he needs to fresh start.

JVR on the otherhand is a minor upgrade to the top 6 with great potential upside. (His numbers are in line with Macarther that is). He is also great at shielding the puck and has a fair 2 way game but he doesn't help the "grinding, truculent" demeanour the leafs want to develop.

This trade looks like a trade where neither party got what they needed but both teams are probably better off at least in the short term. In the longer term, it depends on which player excels under each respective coach.
Burke has tried getting JVR dating back to at least last season when he settled on a 1st/3rd for Versteeg cause Holgrem wouldn't give him up.

I really wish people would just quit looking at just points when comparing players. A big problem with the Leafs forwards was so much of the offence had to come off the rush. JVR meanwhile will add a different dimension in that he can hold the puck down low and cycle which means time killed in the other teams zone. Unlike a guy like CMac who is relatively easy to play against because he's weak on the puck and doesn't even know how to spell cycle. His biggest strength is coming off the rush but that also means the puck comes back to our zone a lot quicker which results in more opportunities for the other team and he is absolutely dreadful at getting the puck out at are blueline.

CMac is a good player on a bad team but not a good player.

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06-25-2012, 01:40 AM
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Don't know how to react to this trade now. Will a good group cry help?

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06-25-2012, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
What is puzzling is that the leaf top 6 is developing into somewhat skittish, non-physical but offensively geared elite talent. The top 6 is developing into a team that looks more like say the Canucks than say the Blues or Kings.

Than you have Carlyle saying he wants a grinding, defensive minded, forechecking team.
Take Dustin Brown out of the Top 6 and you're not left with an overly physical group.

Carter's soft. So are Penner and Williams.

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06-25-2012, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Burke has tried getting JVR dating back to at least last season when he settled on a 1st/3rd for Versteeg cause Holgrem wouldn't give him up.

I really wish people would just quit looking at just points when comparing players. A big problem with the Leafs forwards was so much of the offence had to come off the rush. JVR meanwhile will add a different dimension in that he can hold the puck down low and cycle which means time killed in the other teams zone. Unlike a guy like CMac who is relatively easy to play against because he's weak on the puck and doesn't even how to spell cycle. His biggest strength is coming off the rush but that also means the puck comes back to our zone a lot quicker which results in more opportunities for the other team and he is absolutely dreadful at getting the puck out at are blueline.

CMac is a good player on a bad team but not a good player.
I wouldn't call call JVR a great cycler because he doesn't grind. He does use his body to shield the puck and keep possession. And he uses his speed to create rush scoring chances.

And when I say minor upgrade, I mean despite his size he doesn't grind and hit and is more like Macarthur this way than say what the leafs need in a power forward. Now JVR is a great scoring talent (something we have lots of) and potentially and elite forward but his lack of physicallity is something we also have lots of.

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06-25-2012, 01:50 AM
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Badger Mayhew
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I wouldn't call call JVR a great cycler because he doesn't grind. He does use his body to shield the puck and keep possession. And he uses his speed to create rush scoring chances.

And when I say minor upgrade, I mean despite his size he doesn't grind and hit and is more like Macarthur this way than say what the leafs need in a power forward. Now JVR is a great scoring talent (something we have lots of) and potentially and elite forward but his lack of physicallity is something we also have lots of.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=6041

107 hits in 2010-2011 when he was healthy, more than anyone in the Kings Top 6 besides Brown and Richards (he had 8 more hits...)

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06-25-2012, 02:01 AM
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Call the Leafs second rate if you like, whatever makes you happy .

If you came to this conclusion because we traded from our position of strength, Defense, to aquire a one in our position of weakness, Forward, you are just grasping at straws to justify your opinion.

You can basically say then any trade Burke makes proves we are second rate which is nonesense.

The Leafs are team on the rise even fans that hate us see it. Burke conistantly is trying to aquire young players with upside without overpaying. Our prospects have never been deeper. I know many of you are impatient but if you cannot see that our nucleus is constantly getting better than you are a fan that cannot be satisfied .

Yes I know he should have made a roster that looked like an expansion team into an instant contender by waving a magic wand, and all the prospects he has drafted are busts because they did not instantly enter the league and become stars. Lets not forget he should have hired thugs to force the top free agents to come here against their will, and this is how he has failed us.

I really do not know why you people are Leaf fans. You will hate Burke no matter what he does and can never see any of the positives.

Remove Bozak from the top six and replace him with a decent C and our top six is mighty fine. Liles is our only defenseman in his prime and again we have a good group here with even more coming in the future. We need a goalie and a center and we have a good team, the rebuild is almost over and the playoffs will soon be here. If we get Luongo we just need the center and we would still likely make the playoffs without one.

I liked Luke Schenn, I like JVR more and am pleased with the deal, why can't you people ever enjoy these things ?

Ohhh no we are second rate because CMac has been pushed down to the bottom 6 costing us a guy from a position we had too many of...give me a break.

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06-25-2012, 02:01 AM
  #23
number72
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Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=6041

107 hits in 2010-2011 when he was healthy, more than anyone in the Kings Top 6 besides Brown and Richards (he had 8 more hits...)
I'm not measuring "softness" or cycling by hits but granted he does hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
Take Dustin Brown out of the Top 6 and you're not left with an overly physical group.

Carter's soft. So are Penner and Williams.
Williams has some grit and I wouldn't call Carter soft say relative to a Kessel but I'm considering the 2 way game/forechecking capability as well. That's when Kopitar's value comes out.

In reality, a team might need only one of these physical players per line. But aside from Kulemin (who is physical but not gritty) that player doesn't exist in the leaf top 6. That said, Grabbo is more like a Kopitar lite.

The kessel line is missing something to make it more balanced both physically and defensively. Offensively wise they are an elite unite

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06-25-2012, 02:17 AM
  #24
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Agree with the poster saying many of you Leaf "fans" will never be satisfied because Burke did not wave the magic wand and make us SC Champs when he got here..... Your not true fans if you cannot see the good, no GREAT things he has done and continues to do. One thing is all i can complain about as far as Burke's moves among the many... and he probably agrees with this but he should of had a veteran backup for Reimer last year, other than that the man has done wonders for this club.

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06-25-2012, 03:02 AM
  #25
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Am I the only one that thinks finding a power forward like JVR is a lot harder to find then a defensive defenseman like Luke Schenn? Come on people.

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