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UFC 148: Silva vs Sonnen II

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07-12-2012, 12:27 AM
  #726
kurt
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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
Well, maybe a poor choice of words since Chael has cost himself wins enough times that it's clearly a trend. What I meant though is, if Chael doesn't make a dumb mistake like he did in this fight and the 1st one, he wins more often than not vs Anderson. He's got the skills to beat him but doesn't play it safe enough.
Any tiny mistake and Anderson finishes. Chael is the better wrestler, so I do agree that if he fought a 100% perfect fight he could win a decision. But I'd say the same about Dan Henderson. That doesn't mean either of those guys are better fighters than Silva though. It just means they're better wrestlers and they would score better if they managed to avoid strikes perfectly on the feet, and avoid submissions perfectly from the ground.

But you could just as soon say that if Anderson fought a perfect fight he wouldn't get taken down and he'd get a knockout every time. I don't know what importance hypothetical "perfects" really have.

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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
I hope you're not serious about Anderson taking no/little damage in the first fight.
I am. Watch the presser again. Sonnen's face was left swollen and cut up. Aside from Silva's apparent chest injury when his hand was raised, he looked virtually untouched. I know the volume of strikes was significant, but the damage of those strikes?

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07-12-2012, 10:19 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
I saw this coming from Sonnen supporters. On the bright side, everyone is pegging him as a loser, so it's pretty safe to say we won't have to worry about how insufferable he and his fans would be after a big win.
Do you believe Chael Sonnen truly believes everything he was saying? He was hyping the fight and doing an incredible job of it. In certain interviews I thought he was hitting Sacha Baron Cohen levels in how committed he was to his character. Such interviews combined with Anderson Silva's elite fighting skills have vaulted Silva to a new level of popularity amongst the casual fan.

I would argue Sonnen was the opponent that Silva needed to reach that next level - a fighter that posed a serious threat to Silva's title reign (as evidenced by their first fight) and had the media skills to draw more eyes toward Silva so that he could demonstrate how good of fighter he is.

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07-12-2012, 11:48 AM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
I am. Watch the presser again. Sonnen's face was left swollen and cut up. Aside from Silva's apparent chest injury when his hand was raised, he looked virtually untouched. I know the volume of strikes was significant, but the damage of those strikes?
Sonnen has pillows for fists. Anyone who is saying he took less damage than Silva in the first fight is just being a Sonnen fanboy.

Frankly, I really think that Weidman is ready. He's essentially Sonnen with much better striking and much better submissions. His takedowns aren't as good, but he took down Munoz with ease.

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07-12-2012, 04:54 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by kurt View Post
Any tiny mistake and Anderson finishes. Chael is the better wrestler, so I do agree that if he fought a 100% perfect fight he could win a decision. But I'd say the same about Dan Henderson. That doesn't mean either of those guys are better fighters than Silva though. It just means they're better wrestlers and they would score better if they managed to avoid strikes perfectly on the feet, and avoid submissions perfectly from the ground.

But you could just as soon say that if Anderson fought a perfect fight he wouldn't get taken down and he'd get a knockout every time. I don't know what importance hypothetical "perfects" really have.
Yeah, you have pretty good points there. I didn't really mean to say Chael's a better fighter but moreso that Anderson didn't prove anything new to me. I've always believed that if Anderson walked around 10-15lbs heavier and fought at LHW he wouldn't be considered as legendary of a fighter as he'd have at least a couple losses in the last 6 years. He's always fought in the weakest division in MMA where there's very few good wrestlers who aren't one-dimensional. As it stands right now, he's one of the greatest of all-time and maybe even the GOAT (not for me) but had he fought at a weight class higher (that he can easily make) things would be different.

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I am. Watch the presser again. Sonnen's face was left swollen and cut up. Aside from Silva's apparent chest injury when his hand was raised, he looked virtually untouched. I know the volume of strikes was significant, but the damage of those strikes?
I know Sonnen was beat up a fair bit but I find it hard to believe that Anderson's face/head weren't extremely tender the next morning. I've seen guys look not too bad at the press conference but then saw of what they looked like the next day and it's a whole different story.

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07-12-2012, 04:57 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Anyone who is saying he took less damage than Silva in the first fight is just being a Sonnen fanboy.
No one made that argument but thanks for chiming in.

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07-12-2012, 05:16 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Sonnen has pillows for fists. Anyone who is saying he took less damage than Silva in the first fight is just being a Sonnen fanboy.
Just b/c you couldn't see it? Sonnen easily cuts for some reason, happened to him against Marquardt as well. They both took a lot of damage and we didn't see how bruised Silva's face was compared to Chael who was all over the media following that fight. I'm not being a Sonnen fan boy here either.

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07-13-2012, 08:31 PM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
Do you believe Chael Sonnen truly believes everything he was saying?
That's irrelevant. He was intolerable before each fight and both he and his supporters were quick to forget that he didn't actually win either of them.

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He was hyping the fight and doing an incredible job of it. In certain interviews I thought he was hitting Sacha Baron Cohen levels in how committed he was to his character. Such interviews combined with Anderson Silva's elite fighting skills have vaulted Silva to a new level of popularity amongst the casual fan.
I want the athletes I watch to be people, not actors. Others want entertainment and they're entitled to it, but I'm not going to pretend that I agree that's how an athlete should behave.

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I would argue Sonnen was the opponent that Silva needed to reach that next level - a fighter that posed a serious threat to Silva's title reign (as evidenced by their first fight) and had the media skills to draw more eyes toward Silva so that he could demonstrate how good of fighter he is.
Silva doesn't need eyes on him to demonstrate his skill. Knocking out people with moves nobody even has the balls to try, clowining fighters for three rounds, and even managing to lose via disqualification from off of his back show plenty of skill. All Chael did was continue writing the book Hendo started and gave fuel to his haters. Sure, he overcame the obstacle, but I doubt any people who were a haters before changed their minds.

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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
No one made that argument but thanks for chiming in.
No, but it's important to make sure that they weren't. When people seem shocked by the implication that Silva didn't take much damage, it's important to remind them that there were two fighters involved in the match.

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Old
07-13-2012, 10:04 PM
  #733
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I guess Anderson saw the magazine cover.

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Old
07-15-2012, 02:12 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by End of Line View Post
Just b/c you couldn't see it? Sonnen easily cuts for some reason, happened to him against Marquardt as well. They both took a lot of damage and we didn't see how bruised Silva's face was compared to Chael who was all over the media following that fight. I'm not being a Sonnen fan boy here either.
Exactly.

Sonnen was in the media the very next day doing interviews. Silva was in the hospital. People put too much stock in what happens to another guy's face as far as damage goes when the face is only one part of the body that gets focused.

Look, anti-Sonnen fans can go on all they want about him losing twice to Silva. It's true, he lost. But he also dominated the majority of the time those two have spent fighting each other. No other fighter in MMA has taken it to Silva the way Sonnen has and Silva is the proclaimed best in history. What does that say about Sonnen? The guy has dominated the vast majority of fights his whole career, both in MMA and wrestling. He's lost a very small handful of rounds in his 20 or so year career in wrestling/MMA. The guy was in the position he was in because he's really good at what he does in the ring and untouchable with a live mic and he'll be in that position again in the near future. The one real knock against Sonnen is that he's always found a way to lose a match he was winning and it's a stigma that's stuck with him for years.

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Old
07-15-2012, 02:39 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Exactly.

Sonnen was in the media the very next day doing interviews. Silva was in the hospital. People put too much stock in what happens to another guy's face as far as damage goes when the face is only one part of the body that gets focused.

Look, anti-Sonnen fans can go on all they want about him losing twice to Silva. It's true, he lost. But he also dominated the majority of the time those two have spent fighting each other. No other fighter in MMA has taken it to Silva the way Sonnen has and Silva is the proclaimed best in history. What does that say about Sonnen? The guy has dominated the vast majority of fights his whole career, both in MMA and wrestling. He's lost a very small handful of rounds in his 20 or so year career in wrestling/MMA. The guy was in the position he was in because he's really good at what he does in the ring and untouchable with a live mic and he'll be in that position again in the near future. The one real knock against Sonnen is that he's always found a way to lose a match he was winning and it's a stigma that's stuck with him for years.
It suggests that a great wrestler is a very bad match up for Anderson Silva? Lets not pretend like Anderson Silva is the only person who has been able to beat Sonnen.

He's 6-5 in the UFC in his career. He is 27-12-1 as an MMA fighter. That hardly suggests a dominant fighter, regardless of how he looks until he gets submitted. Perhaps it isn't that he has always found a way to lose, but rather just he isn't that great.

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Old
07-15-2012, 05:46 AM
  #736
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Sonnen is a great mma wrestler. But meh at every other facet of mma.

The only thing this really points out is how wrestle-centric NA mma is. In Japan a lot of Sonnen's "dominant" rounds would get stood up for inactivity. Though, on the flip side that might have prevent a lot of Chael's losses as he wouldn't just hang out in people's guards all the time...

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