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Mendes: Sundin should wait for hall of fame.

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Old
06-25-2012, 06:26 PM
  #51
tony d
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Sundin will be a Hall of Famer some day but he won't get in on the 1st ballot.

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06-25-2012, 06:39 PM
  #52
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Glenn Anderson > Mats Sundin

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06-25-2012, 06:41 PM
  #53
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I wouldn't mind seeing sundin snubbed for bure...but then he should definitely get in next year.

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06-25-2012, 06:44 PM
  #54
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With the way the HOF is turning into, he'll get in.

But it shouldn't be on the first ballot

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06-25-2012, 06:47 PM
  #55
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As long as they both go in as Canucks, I'm cool with it.

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06-25-2012, 07:30 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Not including junior tournaments...

World Championships: 56 points in 49 games
Olympics: 20 points in 16 games
World Cup: 12 points in 8 games
Other: 9 points in 7 games
Total: 97 points in 80 games

Awards:
World Championship Silver Medal
Canada Cup All-Star Team
World Championship Gold Medal
World Championship Most Points (12)
World Championship All-Star Team
World Championship Best Forward
World Championship Gold Medal
World Championship Bronze Medal
World Championship Most Assists (9)
World Championship Most Points (14)
World Cup All-Star Team
World Championship All-Star Team
World Championship Gold Medal
World Championship Bronze Medal
Olympic Most Points (9)
World Championship All-Star Team
World Championship Best Forward
World Championship MVP
World Championship Silver Medal
Olympic Gold Medal
I see a lot of World Championships there. You know..when other teams best players are in the playoffs. Sundin never won anything at the NHL level and was never considered one of the top players at his position at any time. Where as Bure was the best goalscorer when he played and Lindros was the most dominant player until he got injured. But Sundin will get in, because it is the HHO good. And it is in Toronto...and fans will want to see him in there.


Last edited by Tripod: 06-25-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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06-26-2012, 12:47 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
In 2008, the IIHF picked its "all time team."

Valeri Kharlamov - Wayne Gretzky - Sergei Makarov
Slava Fetisov - Borje Salming
Vladislav Tretiak
... no Orr?

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06-26-2012, 12:53 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
... no Orr?
Nope. Keep in mind that it is probably based only on play in IIHF-sponsored tournaments, and the only international tournament Orr played in was the 1976 Canada Cup (where he won MVP).

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06-26-2012, 05:22 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Nope. Keep in mind that it is probably based only on play in IIHF-sponsored tournaments, and the only international tournament Orr played in was the 1976 Canada Cup (where he won MVP).
And for clarification, the Canada Cup is a non-IIHF tournament, just like the World Cup that followed it.

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06-26-2012, 05:43 AM
  #60
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I love Sundin, but he shouldn't be in the HHOF

The only time he cracked 100 points was when his 114 points didn't even register for top 10 in the league.
Outside of a few blips early in the 90's, he was a perenial 70 point player, no first team all-stars, no individual awards, no playoff success, a gold medal on a great Sweden team, and a billion World Championship medals (which in my opinion equates to nothing when considering the talent playing in the playoffs, or staying home). I can't think of many HOF'ers who's resumes are as thin.

He was a consistent, good player. He was always good for 30 goals, maybe even 40, but if he didn't play for the Leafs, I don't think he'd get a sniff at the hall.

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06-26-2012, 05:58 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
I'm surprised Mendes still has a job after his homophobic stance a couple years ago.
What was this?

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06-26-2012, 06:34 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
I love Sundin, but he shouldn't be in the HHOF

The only time he cracked 100 points was when his 114 points didn't even register for top 10 in the league.
Outside of a few blips early in the 90's, he was a perenial 70 point player, no first team all-stars, no individual awards, no playoff success, a gold medal on a great Sweden team, and a billion World Championship medals (which in my opinion equates to nothing when considering the talent playing in the playoffs, or staying home). I can't think of many HOF'ers who's resumes are as thin.

He was a consistent, good player. He was always good for 30 goals, maybe even 40, but if he didn't play for the Leafs, I don't think he'd get a sniff at the hall.
He's the leading scorer of all-time on an original 6 team, the team with the second most cups in the league. I don't think I'm going out on a limb here when I say that the man wasn't exactly given the greatest wingers to work with. He's a hall of famer IMO without question. Can't blame a single player for a lack of cup rings.

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06-26-2012, 06:59 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
He's the leading scorer of all-time on an original 6 team, the team with the second most cups in the league. I don't think I'm going out on a limb here when I say that the man wasn't exactly given the greatest wingers to work with. He's a hall of famer IMO without question. Can't blame a single player for a lack of cup rings.
I think the fact that Sundin is the leading scorer of the franchise speaks to how badly the Leafs were handled in the 70's and 80's, and not to how great Sundin was. When 6 (almost 7) of your top 10 scorers all time were part of the 60's Leafs, (compared to the scorers of the Canadians, Bruins, Hawks and Wings), there's an issue.

He was given some pretty good players from the late 90's-2004. So he doesn't exactly get a pass from that.

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06-26-2012, 07:31 AM
  #64
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You've got to be kidding me. The 2010 olympics was the highest quality of hockey I've seen in a long time. Made this year's playoffs look like a snooze fest. All of the big 7 teams have more top end talent than an NHL team, and even teams like the Swiss were able to play competitve hockey.
It was blow out after blow out.

7 game tournament... it's just so silly.

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06-26-2012, 08:18 AM
  #65
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I can't wait to read about how Alfredsson shouldn't be in from the same posters in this thread.

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06-26-2012, 08:37 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
I think the fact that Sundin is the leading scorer of the franchise speaks to how badly the Leafs were handled in the 70's and 80's, and not to how great Sundin was. When 6 (almost 7) of your top 10 scorers all time were part of the 60's Leafs, (compared to the scorers of the Canadians, Bruins, Hawks and Wings), there's an issue.

He was given some pretty good players from the late 90's-2004. So he doesn't exactly get a pass from that.
To be fair, since expansion Sundin has the 28th most points for a single franchise, so him leading a franchise isn't unexpected. He'd be the leading scorer on 14 current franchises (granted this is flawed because it includes teams like the jackets or similar), and he'd be 2nd on another 9.

As far as Original 6 in the post O6 era (which would speak to your badly managed in the 80s points), Sundin would be 3rd on the Bruins (Bourque and Esposito), 2nd on the Hawks (Savard), 3rd on the Wings (Yzerman and Lidstrom), 2nd on the Habs (Lafleur) and first on the Rags and obviously Leafs. Overall he had the 7th most points for an O6 franchise. Only a couple of those guys ahead of him really benefited from the high scoring 80s.

Clearly the Leafs were badly managed in the 80s (no one with a brain can doubt this), but I don't think that takes away from what Mats did.

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Old
06-26-2012, 08:40 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I can't wait to read about how Alfredsson shouldn't be in from the same posters in this thread.
Not that I believe Alfredsson shouldn't be in (he should), but he has nearly 300 less career points than Sundin, that's not insignificant.

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06-26-2012, 08:59 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
To be fair, since expansion Sundin has the 28th most points for a single franchise, so him leading a franchise isn't unexpected. He'd be the leading scorer on 14 current franchises (granted this is flawed because it includes teams like the jackets or similar), and he'd be 2nd on another 9.

As far as Original 6 in the post O6 era (which would speak to your badly managed in the 80s points), Sundin would be 3rd on the Bruins (Bourque and Esposito), 2nd on the Hawks (Savard), 3rd on the Wings (Yzerman and Lidstrom), 2nd on the Habs (Lafleur) and first on the Rags and obviously Leafs. Overall he had the 7th most points for an O6 franchise. Only a couple of those guys ahead of him really benefited from the high scoring 80s.

Clearly the Leafs were badly managed in the 80s (no one with a brain can doubt this), but I don't think that takes away from what Mats did.
I don't think it takes anything away, he had a great career. But I think the huge vacum of talent in between the 70's and the 90's propped him up higher in peoples minds than he should be.

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06-26-2012, 09:09 AM
  #69
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He will get in, as he should, but after a perfectly reasonable wait.

NHL-wise, his creditentials are pretty borderline. But his IIHF credentials put him solidly in. This is the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the Hall of NHL Excellence. Sundin is arguably the most influencial hockey player in Sweden's history. He wouldn't be lowering the bar like Federko or Turgeon.

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06-26-2012, 09:12 AM
  #70
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I think Sundin is a close enough call that it would serve the Hall well to debate his merits over a few years and seeing how his career ages post-retirement, rather than rushing him in like they did with Nieuwendyk. I can see it going either way with Sundin. If he doesn't make it in, he'd be on the short list for the best NHL players not in the Hall. If he does make it in, it's clearly as one of the lesser modern inductees.

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06-26-2012, 09:18 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
I'm surprised Mendes still has a job after his homophobic stance a couple years ago.
How is it homophobic to suggest that Sundin should not get into the HHOF right away?

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06-26-2012, 09:20 AM
  #72
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How is it homophobic to suggest that Sundin should not get into the HHOF right away?
Didnt pick up on the "a couple years ago" part of his post, eh?

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Old
06-26-2012, 09:23 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
I love Sundin, but he shouldn't be in the HHOF

The only time he cracked 100 points was when his 114 points didn't even register for top 10 in the league.
Outside of a few blips early in the 90's, he was a perenial 70 point player, no first team all-stars, no individual awards, no playoff success, a gold medal on a great Sweden team, and a billion World Championship medals (which in my opinion equates to nothing when considering the talent playing in the playoffs, or staying home). I can't think of many HOF'ers who's resumes are as thin.

He was a consistent, good player. He was always good for 30 goals, maybe even 40, but if he didn't play for the Leafs, I don't think he'd get a sniff at the hall.
I agree 100 per cent.

In my view, Mats Sundin is not a Hall of Fame player. He was a very good player for a long period of time. However, over the course of his career he was never considered the elite of the elite. He was always a tier below the very best players of his era. He did not win any individual awards in the NHL, he only cracked 100 points once in his career and the teams he captained or was the best player on did not enjoy any significant playoff success. In fact, if you look up the record, Sundin-led teams missed the playoffs almost as much as they qualified.

Edit to add: He is going to get into the Hockey Hall of Fame, because the Hockey Hall of Fame has always been content with admitting players that were very good.

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06-26-2012, 09:27 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Paris in Flames View Post
Didnt pick up on the "a couple years ago" part of his post, eh?
Regardless, I think he's got the wrong Sportsnet guy, Damien Goddard was the one who made controversial remarks about gay marriage.

As for the Hall, all the article states is that Bure should get in this time around as he's had to wait. Sundin WILL get in, just not on this go-around.

And I say this knowing Alfredsson will probably have to wait two or three ballots before he gets in. That's just how the Hall works.

Teemu will be a first ballot entry though. He's the highest scoring Finn of all time, he's got a Cup, and individual trophies.

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06-26-2012, 09:29 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
I love Sundin, but he shouldn't be in the HHOF

The only time he cracked 100 points was when his 114 points didn't even register for top 10 in the league.
Outside of a few blips early in the 90's, he was a perenial 70 point player, no first team all-stars, no individual awards, no playoff success, a gold medal on a great Sweden team, and a billion World Championship medals (which in my opinion equates to nothing when considering the talent playing in the playoffs, or staying home). I can't think of many HOF'ers who's resumes are as thin.

He was a consistent, good player. He was always good for 30 goals, maybe even 40, but if he didn't play for the Leafs, I don't think he'd get a sniff at the hall.
He might have been a perennial 75pts player but the guy is one of the most consistent player in the history of the NHL. How many guys can say they've finished their career at a ppg, with 1300+ pts and 550+ goals?

-Tied-21st in career goals
-33rd in career assists
-27th all time in career points
-First and only Swedish player to reach 500 goals
-Most career points, goals and assists by a Swedish player
-First Swedish player to reach 1000 points

First ballot HOFamer AINEC.

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