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Mendes: Sundin should wait for hall of fame.

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Old
06-27-2012, 11:31 AM
  #126
Incognito
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LOL at Jim Matheson of the Edmonton Journal. Obviously a very strong case can be made for Shanahan deserving to be a first ballot Hall of Famer, and I certainly would not have argued it had he been inducted. However, using the "more points" argument in favour of Shanahan is beyond silly. He had a whopping five more career points in 178 more games played.

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06-27-2012, 11:40 AM
  #127
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I don't understand the ******** ... It was obvious Mats was a lock for 1st Ballot HHoF.

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06-27-2012, 11:51 AM
  #128
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I don't understand the ******** ... It was obvious Mats was a lock for 1st Ballot HHoF.
How come?

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06-27-2012, 12:04 PM
  #129
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How come?
Simple.

1. International success.
2. NHL stats over a long career
3. 11 years as the captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs.


You can add first Euro drafted 1st overall and everything else people pro-Mats are arguing ITT, but anyone who matches the 3 I list are 1st ballot locks every time.

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06-27-2012, 12:06 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireEverybody View Post
Simple.

1. International success.
2. NHL stats over a long career
3. 11 years as the captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs.


You can add first Euro drafted 1st overall and everything else people pro-Mats are arguing ITT, but anyone who matches the 3 I list are 1st ballot locks every time.
Of those three reasons, the third is definatley the deciding factor.

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06-27-2012, 12:10 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Of those three reasons, the third is definatley the deciding factor.
I don't think it is fair to call it the deciding factor, but it is an important one.
Mats career just means more then most ... You know because he played in Toronto.

Not evening joking, that it just the way it is folks.




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06-27-2012, 12:14 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by FireEverybody View Post
I don't think it is fair to call it the deciding factor, but it is an important one.
Mats career just means more then most ... You know because he played in Toronto.

Not evening joking, that it just the way it is folks.


You are quite right, it could hardly be clearer.

Imagine if Pat Burns had won his Cup with the Leafs?
Does anyone really think he would not be in the HHOF before now?

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06-27-2012, 12:19 PM
  #133
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Sundin being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer brings the entire process into question. He won zero cups, had zero individual awards, and was never a first-team allstar. The Toronto-centric voting has got to go if the HOF wants to retain its credibility.

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06-27-2012, 12:24 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireEverybody View Post
Simple.

1. International success.
2. NHL stats over a long career
3. 11 years as the captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs.


You can add first Euro drafted 1st overall and everything else people pro-Mats are arguing ITT, but anyone who matches the 3 I list are 1st ballot locks every time.
It was obvious that Sundin would make it to the Hall. He certainly wasn't that a slam dunk 1st ballot, has proven by the many people surprised by his induction. Most people (including me) agree that Shanahan had a better career than Sundin. And with long overdue choices like Bure, Oates, Makarov, and Lindros, there was actually a enormous chance that he would not be in on 1st ballot. Your 3rd point is definitely what got him in so fast. Not that I care about the ''1st ballot'' crap but saying it was obvious is certainly not true.

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06-27-2012, 12:24 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Sundin being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer brings the entire process into question. He won zero cups, had zero individual awards, and was never a first-team allstar. The Toronto-centric voting has got to go if the HOF wants to retain its credibility.
Settle down .. any of the players being argued for could be legit 1st ballot.
It just so happens Mats played for the most important sport franchise on this planet.



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06-27-2012, 12:26 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Sundin being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer brings the entire process into question. He won zero cups, had zero individual awards, and was never a first-team allstar. The Toronto-centric voting has got to go if the HOF wants to retain its credibility.
This argument about cups is absolute horse ****.

Go take a look at those Leafs rosters, and let me know if you think that had a chance to win the cup against teams like Detroit which had Yzerman, Federov, Lidstrom, and Shanahan.

3 generational talents + One of the greaterst PWF v Sundin and his support cast.

It's not even close.

The only time these two players had about equal support cast was international play - and in those both have won Olympic gold, while Sundin has won 3 WC's, and Shanny only 1.

It's nice to sit there and use the cup as an argument, but it doesn't make much sense when you compare the two teams at the time of the cup wins.

Shanahan won jack **** without Detroit.

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06-27-2012, 12:27 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireEverybody View Post
Settle down .. any of the players being argued for could be legit 1st ballot.
It just so happens Mats played for the most important sport franchise on this planet.


Oh...nevermind my previous answer. I didn't realize you were a troll.

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06-27-2012, 12:32 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
Oh...nevermind my previous answer. I didn't realize you were a troll.
Really? I am the troll ... not the guy ... and I quote ... "brings the entire process into question."

A "process" what is and always has been nothing more then a glorified popularity contest.

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06-27-2012, 12:40 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
This argument about cups is absolute horse ****.

Go take a look at those Leafs rosters, and let me know if you think that had a chance to win the cup against teams like Detroit which had Yzerman, Federov, Lidstrom, and Shanahan.

3 generational talents + One of the greaterst PWF v Sundin and his support cast.

It's not even close.

The only time these two players had about equal support cast was international play - and in those both have won Olympic gold, while Sundin has won 3 WC's, and Shanny only 1.

It's nice to sit there and use the cup as an argument, but it doesn't make much sense when you compare the two teams at the time of the cup wins.

Shanahan won jack **** without Detroit.
I actually agree that using cups is a poor way to determine individual talent, but it's obviously something that HOF voters (in every sport) use when evaluating candidates. They always have, and always will. The fact that Sundin had zero cups should, theoretically, not matter much but it clearly does to HOF voters. The fact that he was a 1st ballot HOF despite that makes his selection even more questionable.

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06-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireEverybody View Post
Settle down .. any of the players being argued for could be legit 1st ballot.
It just so happens Mats played for the most important sport franchise on this planet.


Sundin definitely is not a legit 1st ballot HOF. Bure is questionable as a 1st ballot HOF as well.

The Leafs aren't close to being the most important sports franchise on this planet. I doubt they are even in the top 30.

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06-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #141
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some people are talking like shanahan was some game changing superstar, but he wasn't, very good player obviously, sometimes elite, and i would be fine with him in the hhof, but can anyone tell me why he's so much better than theo fleury? because i can't see it

of the two shanahan was the better goal scorer, two 50 goal seasons to fleury's one, fleury was a better playmaker though, four 50+ assists seasons to shanahan's one, fleury's got two 100 point seasons to shanahan's one, and both have one season with 90+ points

both also played on the same wjc, canada cup and olympic teams and put up similar production – shanahan 29 points in 47 games, fleury 43 points in 50 games – and both won cups or a cup while being outside the three most important players on the team

to me, those two players are very similar

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06-27-2012, 01:56 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
LOL at Jim Matheson of the Edmonton Journal. Obviously a very strong case can be made for Shanahan deserving to be a first ballot Hall of Famer, and I certainly would not have argued it had he been inducted. However, using the "more points" argument in favour of Shanahan is beyond silly. He had a whopping five more career points in 178 more games played.
My thought is why doesn't he and everyone else complain about Bure making it over Shanahan? Looking at their career's Shanahan did a lot more then Bure ever did when it comes to Goals, Points, Stanley Cups and etc. So do people hate the Leafs that much that they blame Sundin for making it before Shanahan which is complete crap and something he had no control over.

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06-27-2012, 06:16 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
LOL at Jim Matheson of the Edmonton Journal. Obviously a very strong case can be made for Shanahan deserving to be a first ballot Hall of Famer, and I certainly would not have argued it had he been inducted. However, using the "more points" argument in favour of Shanahan is beyond silly. He had a whopping five more career points in 178 more games played.
Yeah that's a terrible argument.

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06-27-2012, 10:02 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
LOL at Jim Matheson of the Edmonton Journal. Obviously a very strong case can be made for Shanahan deserving to be a first ballot Hall of Famer, and I certainly would not have argued it had he been inducted. However, using the "more points" argument in favour of Shanahan is beyond silly. He had a whopping five more career points in 178 more games played.
An argument can be made though that Shanahan was a more complete player in the North American style of play---in terms of physical play. Then again, it isn't a really fair comparison to Mats Sundin...who was also extremely consistent---70+ points in every season of his career that went the full 82 games except for his rookie season and final half-season.

I think that Sundin's consistency and being the face of the Maple Leafs for so long is what pushed Sundin over the top. You could make an argument for either one being a first-balloter and have lots of merit. Unfortunately, someone has to be cut.

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06-27-2012, 10:54 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 View Post
An argument can be made though that Shanahan was a more complete player in the North American style of play---in terms of physical play. Then again, it isn't a really fair comparison to Mats Sundin...who was also extremely consistent---70+ points in every season of his career that went the full 82 games except for his rookie season and final half-season.

I think that Sundin's consistency and being the face of the Maple Leafs for so long is what pushed Sundin over the top. You could make an argument for either one being a first-balloter and have lots of merit. Unfortunately, someone has to be cut.
Actually, his first two seasons in the NHL were full seasons. There were only 80 games in 90-91, 91-92. And he only had 8 full seasons (and 2 seasons where he missed 1 game). Other years he has missed more, though only from 4 to 12 games only...well, except for his final half season in any case.

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06-27-2012, 10:57 PM
  #146
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Lots of player deserve to be in the HHOF including Sundin.

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06-27-2012, 11:03 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Sundin definitely is not a legit 1st ballot HOF. Bure is questionable as a 1st ballot HOF as well.

The Leafs aren't close to being the most important sports franchise on this planet. I doubt they are even in the top 30.
Name 30 sports franchises that are more important than them please. After the obvious answers like Yankees, Man U, etc., it gets hard. There definitely aren't 30.

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06-27-2012, 11:30 PM
  #148
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Name 30 sports franchises that are more important than them please. After the obvious answers like Yankees, Man U, etc., it gets hard. There definitely aren't 30.
you have to win to be important

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06-27-2012, 11:39 PM
  #149
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you have to win to be important
tell that to the Dallas Cowboys

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06-27-2012, 11:41 PM
  #150
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tell that to the Dallas Cowboys
1995 is a lot closer than 1967

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