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Roster Next Year - Part III

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Old
08-02-2012, 06:51 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
Exactly.



We have plenty to trade with, but little that has any real value. Beyond the core players (Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith) the only pieces at the NHL level the Hawks have who could be the center piece of a trade for an impact player are Bolland, Hammer, and Leddy. Moving Bolland just opens up a new hole. Leddy shouldn't be moved unless it is for a similarly young high potential player (ie wont happen). Hammer could be moved but then there would be a large hole on the blueline.

The Hawks prospects aren't blue chippers. Saad and TT are the closest thing the Hawks have to blue chip prospects, but neither of them is returning a top 4D or 2C without serious baggage (age, injuries, off-ice issues). Beyond that we have a large amount of good talent, but every team in the league has their own version of Pirri, Morin, and Jayes. The strength of the Hawks system is that we have multiple guys who project to be solid contributors, but not that 1 sure thing blue chip prospect other teams want.
/\ mygawd. The excuses for Stan's inabilities are endless.

I think I need a sabbatical from here until something actually gets done

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08-02-2012, 06:52 PM
  #752
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/\ mygawd. The excuses for Stan's inabilities are endless.

I think I need a sabbatical from here until something actually gets done.
I guess they are excuses for every GM in the West then.

Not sure how that isn't a fair excuse, that they wanted Saad for Grossman. How would they not want more for a better, more impactful player?

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08-02-2012, 06:55 PM
  #753
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I guess they are excuses for every GM in the West then.
Wings perhaps but the summer is not over.

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08-02-2012, 07:19 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
I guess they are excuses for every GM in the West then.

Not sure how that isn't a fair excuse, that they wanted Saad for Grossman. How would they not want more for a better, more impactful player?
Once again, that was at the trade deadline, where the trade value of players being given up by sellers is inflated big time.
But why should we bring that up? Nah, let's continue making excuses for what is probably the worst GM in the league.

Well alright, I suppose Howson is worse.

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08-02-2012, 07:36 PM
  #755
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If Holmgren, Holland, or Wilson can't pull off a big trade (not the trade of the mistakes between BB and Paul), I think it's reasonable to assume the market is going to be very difficult to say the least. Those teams have far more troubling concerns than Chicago and they have gms that have proven to be willing and able to pull off a major trade or acquisition, but they haven't been able to so far. That should tell us something about the market.

It's not like the rest of the league has been able to address concerns effectively either, only a few gms really helped their teams. Everybody has plenty of space (summer overage) and just about everybody has serious holes on their rosters. Every shopped player has a bunch of interested buyers, just like the deadline. Those thoughts can be taken as a excuse for Bowman or offering perspective on the landscape around the league right now. As long as the hard cap is in place and the next CBA is similar, I think we'll see these same problems in most franchise cities the next few years.

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08-02-2012, 09:00 PM
  #756
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Once again, that was at the trade deadline, where the trade value of players being given up by sellers is inflated big time.
But why should we bring that up? Nah, let's continue making excuses for what is probably the worst GM in the league.

Well alright, I suppose Howson is worse.
Even if the price went down, it would still be Saad + because he is amuch better player than Grossman.

Worst GM in the league? LOL I would rather have Bowman than quite a few GMs in the league. Burke, Holland, and Holmgren come to mind.

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08-02-2012, 09:36 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
No, it's impossible to make a trade for an impact player with nothing but scraps to offer.
Then make one that might become an impact player.

Nah, too hard. Let's just sit and hope instead! That should work!

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08-02-2012, 09:46 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Then make one that might become an impact player.

Nah, too hard. Let's just sit and hope instead! That should work!
So somehow trading for a young player who might an impact player is better than letting your own young players develop into impact players? I'm not seeing your logic.

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08-02-2012, 09:50 PM
  #759
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So somehow trading for a young player who might an impact player is better than letting your own young players develop into impact players? I'm not seeing your logic.
Apparently your idea of logic is that that is an 'either or' scenario.

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08-02-2012, 10:04 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Apparently your idea of logic is that that is an 'either or' scenario.
To make a trade you need to give something up. So to get a young player who might develop into an impact player you would have to give up some of the prospects who are already in the system. So the choice is either to let the prospects who are already here develop into impact players or trade them and let the new acquisition develop into an impact player. It seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

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08-02-2012, 10:05 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
To make a trade you need to give something up. So to get a young player who might develop into an impact player you would have to give up some of the prospects who are already in the system. So the choice is either to let the prospects who are already here develop into impact players or trade them and let the new acquisition develop into an impact player. It seems pretty self-explanatory to me.
Impact players like Bochenski? Ellison?

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08-02-2012, 10:25 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Impact players like Bochenski? Ellison?
You keep bringing up the same couple of trades that Tallon won as some type of proof that Bowman can't win a trade. But do you realize how many trades Tallon got totally hosed on? How many draft picks he squandered? How many of his trades were garbage for garbage? The situation back then was totally different than now. Tallon could afford to throw a bunch of crap at the wall to see what stuck. He had cap space to blow and a team with plenty of holes and no pressure to perform. I'd rather have Bowman be patient and wait for a good move then have him "spray and pray" like Tallon did.

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08-02-2012, 10:49 PM
  #763
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Dallas wanted Saad for Grossman. Do you honestly think the Hawks would have gotten Ribs unless they gave up Saad+.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nhl/story...cklas-grossman

Like I said you aren't getting an impact player without baggage (Ribs: Age, Rental, and character questions) for what the Hawks have to offer.

We might a well trade Kane for his issues then as well. So cliche, if he feels a void get him here. Perfect for a few years

And I don't buy that BS that the only thing tradable was Saad. Saying Eakin is top 6 is similar to saying Morin and Beach are.. Still a question mark.

You guys make me sick the proposals I made for Ribs was always "not enough" he is a "60-70" point player that would fetch more.

And then wen CODY EAKIN and a second claims him its a "great haul"

Mother of god.

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08-02-2012, 10:57 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
You keep bringing up the same couple of trades that Tallon won as some type of proof that Bowman can't win a trade. But do you realize how many trades Tallon got totally hosed on? How many draft picks he squandered? How many of his trades were garbage for garbage? The situation back then was totally different than now. Tallon could afford to throw a bunch of crap at the wall to see what stuck. He had cap space to blow and a team with plenty of holes and no pressure to perform. I'd rather have Bowman be patient and wait for a good move then have him "spray and pray" like Tallon did.
Enjoy your first round exits.

Maybe Tallon just knew how to improve a team. The Hawks have done nothing but get worse where it matters every year under Bowman.

But even if that weren't true, the fact is we aren't going to move ahead by doing nothing and expecting prospects (which every team in the league has) to push us over the top is fundamentally wrong. Bowman wastes away the best years of Hossa, Sharp, Keith, even Seabrook by sitting on his arse hoping that enough prospects buck the odds and turn into productive core NHLers to bail him out.

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08-02-2012, 11:11 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Worst GM in the league? LOL I would rather have Bowman than quite a few GMs in the league. Burke, Holland, and Holmgren come to mind.
Hahahahahahahahaha.

(Also, at least Holmgren tries to improve his team by filling roster holes).

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08-02-2012, 11:41 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
And I don't buy that BS that the only thing tradable was Saad. Saying Eakin is top 6 is similar to saying Morin and Beach are.. Still a question mark.
Nieuwendyk wanted Saad at the deadline for Grossman and ended up accepting a 2nd + 3rd round picks from Philly. You really think he would just take a lesser prospect than Saad and a 2nd round pick instead of sending Ribs east? Nieuwendyk doesn't trade with western conference teams very often and when he does its a minor deal or a landslide for the Stars.

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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Maybe Tallon just knew how to improve a team. The Hawks have done nothing but get worse where it matters every year under Bowman.
Tallon busted on just as many trades as he hit, overpaid for numerous players, and squandered draft picks. I can't believe how many people on this board think Tallon was this mastermind who just made great moves left and right. Oh and in 3 years Bowman has won a cup, wnet thru cap hell and still made the playoffs with 97 points, and then made the playoffs again with 101 points. How many other GM have done better than that in the last 3 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
But even if that weren't true, the fact is we aren't going to move ahead by doing nothing and expecting prospects (which every team in the league has) to push us over the top is fundamentally wrong. Bowman wastes away the best years of Hossa, Sharp, Keith, even Seabrook by sitting on his arse hoping that enough prospects buck the odds and turn into productive core NHLers to bail him out.
How is it fundamentally wrong? Even if you don't give credit to Bowman for the cup win, he guided the team thru cap hell and still made the playoffs with 97 points. Then he put together a team that made the playoffs with 101 points. So how exactly can you say the Hawks are getting worse when they have improved? And waiting for prospects to step up and make the team is a better long term strategy than making 25 trades while winning 3, losing 3, and having the rest be garbage for garbage. You want him to trade for young unproven players and hope that they turn into productive NHLers and that is somehow better than letting his own draft picks mature into young NHLers. Your logic is fundamentally wrong.

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08-02-2012, 11:48 PM
  #767
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Hahahahahahahahaha.

(Also, at least Holmgren tries to improve his team by filling roster holes).
What good has that done him? I would want Holmgren as my head scout, and I would want his help selling a player, but outside of that I would kick him out of the front office. The guy can't count, had it not been for Howson helping him out a bit lately, he would have had a couple really bad offseasons. Paul's wasted more cap space on a yearly basis than Bowman's had to work with prior to this year.

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08-02-2012, 11:50 PM
  #768
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What good has that done him? I would want Holmgren as my head scout, and I would want his help selling a player, but outside of that I would kick him out of the front office. The guy can't count, had it not been for Howson helping him out a bit lately, he would have had a couple really bad offseasons. Paul's wasted more cap space on a yearly basis than Bowman's had to work with prior to this year.
But atleast Holmgren made moves. How they worked out shouldn't be a consideration.

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08-03-2012, 12:05 AM
  #769
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But atleast Holmgren made moves. How they worked out shouldn't be a consideration.
Making moves in an effort to try and improve the team is not a bad thing. Only you ludicrous Bowman defenders seem to think it is.

Changing up the roster doesn't always work. But when it's necessary to do so, you need to try. Holmgren tries to (and does - meanwhile Bowman gives a halfhearted effort and then sits back and watches the Olympics once it doesn't work).

Holmgren is giving his team a much better chance to be better than it was the previous year. Bowman is guaranteeing that the Hawks will be no better or worse than the past year, barring a miracle in which literally every player on the roster improves dramatically, which is not going to happen.

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08-03-2012, 12:26 AM
  #770
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Hahahahahahahahaha.

(Also, at least Holmgren tries to improve his team by filling roster holes).
I don't want another guy who can't handle the salary cap. Ian White is a 1st pairing defenseman. Laugh at that.

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08-03-2012, 12:27 AM
  #771
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Making moves in an effort to try and improve the team is not a bad thing. Only you ludicrous Bowman defenders seem to think it is.

Changing up the roster doesn't always work. But when it's necessary to do so, you need to try. Holmgren tries to (and does - meanwhile Bowman gives a halfhearted effort and then sits back and watches the Olympics once it doesn't work).

Holmgren is giving his team a much better chance to be better than it was the previous year. Bowman is guaranteeing that the Hawks will be no better or worse than the past year, barring a miracle in which literally every player on the roster improves dramatically, which is not going to happen.
Yea, they have a great chance to win giving up 8 goals a game in the playoffs. Serious contenders.

A GM shouldn't be evaluated on his aggressiveness. Eventually that can bite him in the butt.

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08-03-2012, 12:30 AM
  #772
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I don't want another guy who can't handle the salary cap. Ian White is a 1st pairing defenseman. Laugh at that.
I'll go ahead and look at Ken Holland's four Stanley Cups instead.

But hail Bowman! He signed Brookbank and traded for Oduya.

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08-03-2012, 12:31 AM
  #773
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Making moves in an effort to try and improve the team is not a bad thing. Only you ludicrous Bowman defenders seem to think it is.
So signing Brzy to that massive contract was a good move? Not every move that is made is a good move.

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Changing up the roster doesn't always work. But when it's necessary to do so, you need to try. Holmgren tries to (and does - meanwhile Bowman gives a halfhearted effort and then sits back and watches the Olympics once it doesn't work).
He identified those players as being good enough to improve the team and worth the cost in term and salary. So he did try to improve the team, but he failed to sign them. Just like Holmgren tried to sign Weber, but failed. Just like Shero going after Parise and failed. Just like Holland went after Suter and failed.

Also you act like the roster hasn't changed when it has. They might not be big signing or big changes, but there will be new faces on the team next year.

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Holmgren is giving his team a much better chance to be better than it was the previous year. Bowman is guaranteeing that the Hawks will be no better or worse than the past year, barring a miracle in which literally every player on the roster improves dramatically, which is not going to happen.
What has Holgren done? Traded JVR for Schenn? The Flyers aslo lost Carle to free agency. So at best that is a lateral move but most likely a step back. They also lost Jagr to Free Agency and signed Fedotenko. So how exactly has Holmgren given his team a better chance next year?

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08-03-2012, 12:31 AM
  #774
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Yea, they have a great chance to win giving up 8 goals a game in the playoffs. Serious contenders.

A GM shouldn't be evaluated on his aggressiveness. Eventually that can bite him in the butt.
A GM should be evaluated on how well he manages to fill holes in the roster and make the team a legitimate contender year in, year out. If the players don't perform up to par, that isn't his fault. Philly had a fantastic team on paper last season - it is not Holmgren's fault the defensive structure fell apart, Bryzgalov slumped, and Pronger got knocked into Russia. He put the team in a position to succeed.

Bowman cannot say the same thing. He is going with nearly the same exact roster that has proven twice over to be first round fodder.

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08-03-2012, 12:33 AM
  #775
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Why the hell are we still talking about the Flyers' GM?


Bowman has proven to be utterly incompetent. Going way off topic hardly proves that to be untrue.

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